Irish citizens caught up in the trouble in Egypt.

SeanW

Ok, so its been all over the news now about the children of the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque who have been caught up in the violence in Egpyt. Indeed I just heard from the sister who did not go talking on the radio not long ago. Obviously I hope no harm comes to them but a few questions spring to mind.

1. Why were Irish citizens - the children of a supposidly Irish religious leader - involved in a Muslim Brotherhood protest? Were they protesting in support of the MB? Does the family (and by extension the leadership of the Clonskeagh mosque) support the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist hardliners?
2. Allegedly, the family in question have been in Ireland since 1996. That's almost 20 years ago. But the lady on the radio did not have even a hint of an Irish accent. Why is this?

ted1

People are entitled to their beliefs.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Is this a joke?

Howard Juneau

This isn't going to end well is it?

pablomakaveli

I remember seeing part of this on the news yesterday. Weren't the kids just sheltering in a mosque or some building to escape the violence?

Also i thought the mother had a bit of a mixed Irish-Egyptian accent when interviewed yesterday not that i can see the relevance of their accent to anything.

Jonny7

They are aged 17 to 27. I don't know whether they were there to protest or just got caught up in it.

Einhard

I'm not Muslim, and don't think I could be described as a hardliner on any front, but if I had an affiliation with a country, and happened to be there after the democratically elected government had been overthrown in a coup d'etat, I think I'd be out protesting too.

MarkR

SeanW wrote: »

Ok, so its been all over the news now about the children of the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque who have been caught up in the violence in Egpyt. Indeed I just heard from the sister who did not go talking on the radio not long ago. Obviously I hope no harm comes to them but a few questions spring to mind.

1. Why were Irish citizens - the children of a supposidly Irish religious leader - involved in a Muslim Brotherhood protest? Were they protesting in support of the MB? Does the family (and by extension the leadership of the Clonskeagh mosque) support the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist hardliners?

Maybe they do. Not really my business tbh.

[*]Allegedly, the family in question have been in Ireland since 1996. That's almost 20 years ago. But the lady on the radio did not have even a hint of an Irish accent. Why is this?

I'm an Irish American. Been here since 1990. Still sound like a yank. Just because our lads pick up the US accents when they go over on a J1 doesn't mean everyone else's accents change quickly.

I was having a discussion about this earlier with the wife. They obviously felt strongly about the matter, enough to protest anyway. Or maybe the people they are staying with are hardliners.

SeanW

Einhard wrote: »

I'm not Muslim, and don't think I could be described as a hardliner on any front, but if I had an affiliation with a country, and happened to be there after the democratically elected government had been overthrown in a coup d'etat, I think I'd be out protesting too.

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

alastair

SeanW wrote: »

[*]Allegedly, the family in question have been in Ireland since 1996. That's almost 20 years ago. But the lady on the radio did not have even a hint of an Irish accent. Why is this?

Questions need to be asked of Michael Flatley too.

wexie

SeanW wrote: »

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

He's hardly going to be Church of Ireland now is he?

alastair

SeanW wrote: »

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

It would? Even if the Clonskeagh Imam is a supporter, which is far from certain, I wouldn't be troubled at all.

SeanW

wexie wrote: »

He's hardly going to be Church of Ireland now is he?

Only we are supposed to believe that there is a difference between happening to be a Muslim and being a crazy hardliner, which I understand the MB are.

alastair wrote: »

It would? Even if the Clonskeagh Imam is a supporter, which is far from certain, I wouldn't be troubled at all.

Really, so if the Imam were a supporter of the MB, it would be reasonable to assume that would filter through to the sermons given at the mosque, and that would not concern you at all?

Einhard

SeanW wrote: »

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

I don't necessarily buy into this notion that anyone who supports the Muslim Brotherhood is a hardline extremist.

The Muslim Brotherhood have every right to feel aggrieved. We in the West are always banging on about democracy, and how Islamic groups should embrace it. The MB do just that, only to be ousted in a military coup. Is there any great condemnation at this affront to democracy? Not a bit of it. Their supporters protest, and are murdered in their hundreds- and still barely a murmur of protest. If I were a MB member, or a supporter of any Islamic group, I'd be very wary of calls to democracy right now.

And yet, after all this, the Muslim Brotherhood, rather than the army or the secularists in Egypt are singled out for scrutiny and suspicion. Seems a tad topsy turvy to me.

Einhard

SeanW wrote: »

Only we are supposed to believe that there is a difference between happening to be a Muslim and being a crazy hardliner, which I understand the MB are.

It's a tad more complicated than that.

alastair

SeanW wrote: »

Really, so if the Imam were a supporter of the MB, it would be reasonable to assume that would filter through to the sermons given at the mosque, and that would not concern you at all?

No, it wouldn't.

anncoates

Its not as if a lot of irish immigrants in England suddenly give up their ties and political affiliations with Ireland just because they have settled in England.

Oat23

SeanW wrote: »

Only we are supposed to believe that there is a difference between happening to be a Muslim and being a crazy hardliner, which I understand the MB are.

Really, so if the Imam were a supporter of the MB, it would be reasonable to assume that would filter through to the sermons given at the mosque, and that would not concern you at all?

SeanW wrote: »

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

What the f*ck are you on about?

SeanW

alastair wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.

I hope you are never hired as a security guard ... "ah those guys prying open that window with those crowbars? Just having a bit of fun, surely!" :rolleyes:

Oat23 wrote: »

What the f*ck are you on about?

You're probably a leftist so I'll try again to spell it out for you.

1. Some people are concerned about Islamic extremism.
2. Children of the Clonskeagh Imam are found to be participating in a Muslim Brotherhood protest.
3. That raises the question of why: were they simply protesting against the anti-democratic nature of the coup, or explicitly supporting the Muslim Brotherhood?
4. If they are MB supporters, where did they get these views?
5. If they got these views from their home life - i.e. their father who is also the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque - then it follows that support for the MB and other religious-political movements is a family affair. This is likely and cannot be discounted.
6. In that case, it also possibly follows that daddy is writing sermons to radicalise his followers, given his position of religious authority.

Mr.Micro

SeanW wrote: »

I hope you are never hired as a security guard ... "ah those guys prying open that window with those crowbars? Just having a bit of fun, surely!" :rolleyes:

You're probably a leftist so I'll try again to spell it out for you.

1. Some people are concerned about Islamic extremism.
2. Children of the Clonskeagh Imam are found to be participating in a Muslim Brotherhood protest.
3. That raises the question of why: were they simply protesting against the anti-democratic nature of the coup, or explicitly supporting the Muslim Brotherhood?
4. If they are MB supporters, where did they get these views?
5. If they got these views from their home life - i.e. their father who is also the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque - then it follows that support for the MB and other religious-political movements is a family affair. This is likely and cannot be discounted.
6. In that case, it also possibly follows that daddy is writing sermons to radicalise his followers, given his position of religious authority.

Extremism is nothing new in Ireland, it just went under a different label.

dharma200

Wether 'daddy' is giving out sermons on whatever or not, that doesn't give the right for a bunch of military thugs to kill 600 people and terrify thousands, to not allow people to protest an extraordinary state of affairs in that a military force is allowed and sponsored to kill its own citizens... Wether daddy is an extreme twist or not it does not mean his family, or the hundreds/thousands of people inegypt deserve to be shot dead for protesting against a forced government and military murder.

Knob Longman

Oat23 wrote: »

What the f*ck are you on about?

He is a wee bit insecure the poor lad, All paranoid and afraid of the new Irish, You see they are meant to give up their beliefs and political interests once they move here :rolleyes:

SeanW

dharma200 wrote: »

Wether 'daddy' is giving out sermons on whatever or not, that doesn't give the right for a bunch of military thugs to kill 600 people and terrify thousands, to not allow people to protest an extraordinary state of affairs in that a military force is allowed and sponsored to kill its own citizens... Wether daddy is an extreme twist or not it does not mean his family, or the hundreds/thousands of people inegypt deserve to be shot dead for protesting against a forced government and military murder.

Never defended the current Egyptian administration. They've been condemned previously for needlessly killing people - and rightly so.

I'm just wondering what those individuals were doing there, and why?

SeanW

Knob Longman wrote: »

He is a wee bit insecure the poor lad, All paranoid and afraid of the new Irish, You see they are meant to give up their beliefs and political interests once they move here :rolleyes:

Your username is very apt, at least the first word of it:rolleyes:

dharma200

SeanW wrote: »

Never defended the current Egyptian administration. They've been condemned previously for needlessly killing people - and rightly so.

I'm just wondering what those individuals were doing there, and why?

Omaima said they were in Cairo yesterday as part of a peaceful protest but ended up having to take shelter in the mosque for safety.

“Well we were in a peaceful demonstration, suddenly there were live bullets shot at us so we ended up coming to the Mosque.

“Then one of the security forces and the thugs started pushing forward, pushing forward until they came into the mosque and people were surrounded in the mosque.”

SeanW

Omaima wrote:

Well we were in a peaceful MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD demonstration, suddenly there were live bullets shot at us so we ended up coming to the Mosque.

Key words missing there.

Question is why - and like I said the present Egyptian administration has been condemned - rightly based on current information - for its actions.

dharma200

I presume regardless of the brotherhood connection, people in a democracy have the right to protest, it's like not protesting against Anglo bank because socialist workers party organised the protest? Maybe these people think that the only help they are getting is from the brotherhood? Same as in the 80s in some areas of Belfast, many people who would be peace loving may have found themselves in protests etc organised by the ira because the only organisation who were helping them was the ira, it doesn't mean all the people are terrorists or support terrorism. Perhaps some of the Muslims in Egypt feel they have no other support, that would be my take on it, it's not like the USA or uk are rushing in to help the Egyptians who are being murdered.....

Femme_Fatale

SeanW wrote: »

I hope you are never hired as a security guard ... "ah those guys prying open that window with those crowbars? Just having a bit of fun, surely!" :rolleyes:

How does not having an issue with someone being of the islamic faith make you come to the above conclusion?

You're probably a leftist so I'll try again to spell it out for you.

A leftist - oh noez!

Boombastic

Jonny7 wrote: »

They are aged 17 to 27. I don't know whether they were there to protest or just got caught up in it.

If the family came here in 1996 as claimed, some of the children were born have lived here their whole lives. Why were they protesting in Egypt, what has the government in Egypt got to do with them?

dharma200

What has the government in Egypt got to do with anyone not Egyptian..... Why is it even in the news that people are being shot dead by their own government, can't imagine why anyone not Egyptian would be atall interested, or why anyone who is not Egyptian would be in Egypt atall atall......... Down with that sort of thing, I mean didn't that photographer deserve to be shot dead, taking photographs and him not Egyptian, sure if you are in Egypt and not Egyptian you are fair game.... Or if you are Irish and not in Ireland you are fair game to be shot dead by a government

conorhal

Einhard wrote: »

I don't necessarily buy into this notion that anyone who supports the Muslim Brotherhood is a hardline extremist.

The Muslim Brotherhood have every right to feel aggrieved. We in the West are always banging on about democracy, and how Islamic groups should embrace it. The MB do just that, only to be ousted in a military coup. Is there any great condemnation at this affront to democracy? Not a bit of it. Their supporters protest, and are murdered in their hundreds- and still barely a murmur of protest. If I were a MB member, or a supporter of any Islamic group, I'd be very wary of calls to democracy right now.

And yet, after all this, the Muslim Brotherhood, rather than the army or the secularists in Egypt are singled out for scrutiny and suspicion. Seems a tad topsy turvy to me.

They embrace democracy only as far is it allows them into power, after that it becomes a rather disposable comodity.

I'm irritated to have to hear the Muslim Brotherhood on every news program bleating about the restoration of democracy when anybody that's paid even the most scant attention to what has been going on in Egypt over the past two years understands the hypocracy of that position given that the very first thing the Brotherhood did on ataining their democratic mandate was to start dismantling democracy in Egypt.

Like Putin and Mugabe, the Brotherhood's view of democracy is defined as 'one man, one vote ...one time'. After that you can democraticailly elect any Muslim Brotherhood candidate approved by the mullahs that you wish.

Islamism or any theocratic state is in it's nature, fundementally opposed to democracy, because in a democracy people are entitled to enact laws not aproved by 'the book' (whichever book you may chose that to be) and thus, no theocratic party which has an absolutist stance on the primacy of Islamic law can permit democratic decisions to infringe upon Islamic law, so democracy has to go.

I'm glad the Brotherhood have been chucked out. It's clear that having had a taste of the Muslim Brotherhoods version of democracy, most of Egypt would rather live in a police state, which tell you everything you need to know about those goons and why we should be rightly concerned about allowing suporters of such 'democrats' into this country.

SeanW

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

How does not having an issue with someone being of the islamic faith make you come to the above conclusion?

"Being of the Islamic faith" is one thing, "Being a supporter of Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood" is quite another.

The left continuously tells us that there is a difference, but in the case of this family, I'm not seeing it.

Boombastic

dharma200 wrote: »

What has the government in Egypt got to do with anyone not Egyptian..... Why is it even in the news that people are being shot dead by their own government, can't imagine why anyone not Egyptian would be atall interested, or why anyone who is not Egyptian would be in Egypt atall atall......... Down with that sort of thing, I mean didn't that photographer deserve to be shot dead, taking photographs and him not Egyptian, sure if you are in Egypt and not Egyptian you are fair game.... Or if you are Irish and not in Ireland you are fair game to be shot dead by a government

So you would have no problem with your family holidaying in an unstable country to protest at the regime, which they have no connection with if they are Irish residents?

riffmongous

Boombastic wrote: »

So you would have no problem with your family holidaying in an unstable country to protest at the regime, which they have no connection with if they are Irish residents?

What are you talking about? How does living in one country mean you have no connection with another?

dharma200

No connection with? I hardly think the people you are talking about have no connection. Just because you are an Irish resident means you must have no connections or affiliations with any other nation, group, religion etc. really.... All Irish citizens must only have connections with Irish things..... Ok

dharma200

Perhaps we should let the millions of Irish who live out of Ireland know that just in case......

Sir Humphrey Appleby

SeanW wrote: »

That is possible. However, since the demonstration was organised by the Muslim Brotherhood, it legitimately raises the question: are they MB supporters?

If they were taught to be MB supporters at home, then it follows that daddy, a.k.a the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque, is also a supporter of Islamist ideology. That would be troubling.

You would find it troubling that a Muslim cleric holds Islamic views?

SeanW

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

You would find it troubling that a Muslim cleric holds Islamic views?

ISLAMIST views.

Boombastic

dharma200 wrote: »

No connection with? I hardly think the people you are talking about have no connection. Just because you are an Irish resident means you must have no connections or affiliations with any other nation, group, religion etc. really.... All Irish citizens must only have connections with Irish things..... Ok

What connection would 17 year old, who has live in Ireland their whole life have with politics in Egypt?

Who would send their children holidaying in an unstable country? Who encouraged them out to protest?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

SeanW wrote: »

I hope you are never hired as a security guard ... "ah those guys prying open that window with those crowbars? Just having a bit of fun, surely!" :rolleyes:

You're probably a leftist so I'll try again to spell it out for you.

1. Some people are concerned about Islamic extremism.And some people want to cause fear because it suits their twisted agenda
2. Children of the Clonskeagh Imam are found to be participating in a Muslim Brotherhood protest.No evidence at all of that
3. That raises the question of why: were they simply protesting against the anti-democratic nature of the coup, or explicitly supporting the Muslim Brotherhood? Or out shopping and got caught up in the protest
4. If they are MB supporters, where did they get these views?Bought them in Pennys:D
5. If they got these views from their home life - i.e. their father who is also the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque - then it follows that support for the MB and other religious-political movements is a family affair. This is likely and cannot be discounted. Yes it can be discounted unless you are in the business of creating tensions where none need exist
6. In that case, it also possibly follows that daddy is writing sermons to radicalise his followers, given his position of religious authority. What bull****, you create a scenario of lies,misrepresentations and shítstirring in order to reach that conclusion, you are nothing less than a snake oil salesman, and a poor one at that!

Thats is so trite it is laughable!
Big into the oul conspiracy theories ar you?
Or just like trying to raise racist tension to suit some perverted agenda?:mad:

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Boombastic wrote: »

What connection would 17 year old, who has live in Ireland their whole life have with politics in Egypt?

Who would send their children holidaying in an unstable country? Who encouraged them out to protest?

Who says they were protesting?

Boombastic

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Who says they were protesting?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0818/468807-cairo-irish/
The siblings were among thousands who took took to the streets on Friday for what they believed would be a peaceful protest against the military.
After violent clashes, they sought sanctuary in the mosque.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/four-missing-irish-siblings-found-in-cairo-prison-29507545.html
he Halawa siblings were taking part in a demonstration when violence forced them into the Al-Fath Mosque in the Ramses Square area of Cairo at about 7pm last Friday night. Once inside, they found themselves trapped.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

SeanW wrote: »

ISLAMIST views.

islamist

Web definitions
a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies

SeanW

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Thats is so trite it is laughable!

Glad to have amused you :cool:

Big into the oul conspiracy theories ar you?

Nope, just asking some aparent questions. Questions perhaps you would prefer not be asked?

Or just like trying to raise racist tension to suit some perverted agenda?:mad:

You've been proven thoroughly wrong about what the family was doing there, but why let that stop you from throwing words like "racist" and "perveted agenda?":rolleyes:

While you're at it, perhaps you could explain what's "racist" about opposing groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and being suspicious of those who support them? Preferably showing how such has anything to do with RACE, keeping in mind that Islam is a religion, not a race.

Mr.Micro

Knob Longman wrote: »

My username should have nothing to do with it..
Must break your heart to see immigrants here in such large numbers..Bigoted ignorants like your good self only stirring up shíte..Your posts give off the impression that you're a very insecure man..

In fairness though he is making points that you or I may not agree with and it is unfair to get personal. Challenge the post and its content. IMO

NoNewFriends

The parents of those children should be ashamed of themselves. Likewise the parents of the "Irish citizens" who died fighting a foreign war in Libya. Who could allow their children to run-off to an unstable country to align themselves with extremists? The truth is Irish citizenship is being handed out too easily. Many of our newly adopted citizens of the Islamic faith have no allegiance to this country and are simply here for financial reasons.

SeanW

Knob Longman wrote: »

Must break your heart to see immigrants here in such large numbers

I can refute this straight off - I am certain there are plenty of immigrants who would be happy to embrace the Irish identity, and be happy to share a unfied, secular society with people of other faiths and none, Jews, homosexuals, religous apostates, blasphemers, people who enjoy having personal lives that are not dictated by anti-human codes of "family honour" etc.

And then you have this family, who, from what I can see, have absolutely nothing Irish about them except their passport. Support for hardline Islamists IMO makes one the exact opposite of the above.

As just one example, I would guess that if you ran a refendum throughout Europe asking "Should we stone gay people?" you would get a significant "Yes" percentage and many of them would vote that way because it is compatible with Islamic law and their origin-nation traditions.

I am happy to share our society with others - including immigrants - who likewise treasure secular freedom. But the fact that the children of a major religious figure have been found to be supporters of Islamic fundamentalists is something I find quite troubling.

wexie

SeanW wrote: »

But the fact that the children of a major religious figure have been found to be supporters of Islamic fundamentalists is something I find quite troubling.

Has the possibility not occurred to you at all they were there protesting against the military coup and associated problems rather than in support of the MB?

Just the same as people in Ireland have been protesting against the bank bailout etc. rather than in support of the 'leftists' as you call them?

You seem to be rather black and white in your views but I think maybe you should give some consideration to the possibility of being both against the MB AND the overthrowing of the 'democratically elected' government?

SeanW

wexie wrote: »

Has the possibility not occurred to you at all they were there protesting against the military coup and associated problems rather than in support of the MB?

Just the same as people in Ireland have been protesting against the bank bailout etc. rather than in support of the 'leftists' as you call them?

You seem to be rather black and white in your views but I think maybe you should give some consideration to the possibility of being both against the MB AND the overthrowing of the 'democratically elected' government?

That's certainly possible, but as I said, it's a question legitmately raised.

feargale

SeanW wrote: »

Ok, so its been all over the news now about the children of the Imam of the Clonskeagh mosque who have been caught up in the violence in Egpyt. Indeed I just heard from the sister who did not go talking on the radio not long ago. Obviously I hope no harm comes to them but a few questions spring to mind.

1. Why were Irish citizens - the children of a supposidly Irish religious leader - involved in a Muslim Brotherhood protest? Were they protesting in support of the MB? Does the family (and by extension the leadership of the Clonskeagh mosque) support the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist hardliners? ]

Maybe they were endorsing the view of the Irish government, i.e. the military takeover constitutes a coup. ( and incidentally the Pope is a Catholic.)

SeanW wrote: »

[*]Allegedly, the family in question have been in Ireland since 1996. That's almost 20 years ago. But the lady on the radio did not have even a hint of an Irish accent. Why is this?

Let me know if you ever meet a native of Ireland living in a non-English speaking country who speaks the local language without a trace of an Irish accent. It's not as if we were the world's greatest linguists.

SeanW

feargale wrote: »

Maybe they were endorsing the view of the Irish government, i.e. the military takeover constitutes a coup.

Again, it's possible.

Let me know if you ever meet a native of Ireland living in a non-English speaking country who speaks the local language without a trace of an Irish accent. It's not as if we were the world's greatest linguists.

No, it appeared to me that the woman on the radio did not have a hint of an Irish accent, despite having been here for 17 years. Would an Irish person go to anywhere else, live there for 17 years and not pick up a trace of the local accents?

How does one accomplish this? Besides ... oh say ... sticking only to your own "group" and refusing to integrate?