All-Ireland SFC Semi-Final - Dublin -v- Kerry

keane2097

DoctaDee wrote: »

You don't have to do too much searching thru the forums to find countless "opinions" of BB being the 1 man team ... stop BB stop Dublin is the old chestnut. I'd agree that they're far from a 1 man tean FWIW. I don't know whether you and others post regarding BB to illicit some response from Dubs - but anyone down in Killarney last February will understand that Bernard was far from being an ordinary player

Why not just argue the points being made instead of going on about some "one man team" thing that neither of us said?

I don't think performances in Killarney in February are the sort of thing to prove you're worth your place in one of the best forward lines in the country for September. Brogan was excellent in 2010, good in 2011, poor in 2012 and borderline is a passenger this year.

There's a pattern there,I would think Gill's post above is a decent theory as to where it's coming from, but either way the Bernard Brogan of the last two seasons is nothing like a blue chip forward.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. On Brogan being "ordinary" - he certainly has been extremely ordinary, if not downright poor, in this year's Championship and wouldn't be in the top 20 of forwards for the season to date. Last year he was certainly a lot closer to ordinary than extraordinary also. 2010 he was certainly extraordinary, and in 2011 he was at least very good, but if he's still playing at current levels next year and the year after? You have to acknowledge the ship has sailed at some stage.

DoctaDee

keane2097 wrote: »

Why not just argue the points being made instead of going on about some "one man team" thing that neither of us said?

I don't think performances in Killarney in February are the sort of thing to prove you're worth your place in one of the best forward lines in the country for September. Brogan was excellent in 2010, good in 2011, poor in 2012 and borderline is a passenger this year.

There's a pattern there,I would think Gill's post above is a decent theory as to where it's coming from, but either way the Bernard Brogan of the last two seasons is nothing like a blue chip forward.

EDIT: Just saw your edit. On Brogan being "ordinary" - he certainly has been extremely ordinary, if not downright poor, in this year's Championship and wouldn't be in the top 20 of forwards for the season to date. Last year he was certainly a lot closer to ordinary than extraordinary also. 2010 he was certainly extraordinary, and in 2011 he was at least very good, but if he's still playing at current levels next year and the year after? You have to acknowledge the ship has sailed at some stage.

I respect you opinion.. thanks

Fr Tod Umptious

Moneymaker wrote: »

Don't think Kerry have shown their hand yet to be honest.

I'm confident, but cautious. It's never so simple as turn up and win when its Dublin and Kerry.

Well why have they not shown their hand ?
What sort of hand did they show v Cork ?

They got a a scare at home v Cork, going for what looked like a very comfortable position in charge of the game to being in a position where they were hanging on
You would have expected them to then go out and thump a inexperienced, tried 3rd division team in Croke Park, but they didn't
Fair enough they ere not hanging on but their performance asked more questions than it answered.
So why where they holding some thing back ?
This year Pat Spillane criticised Mayo for essentially taking their foot off the pedal v Galway and Roscommom when the game was over, he implied that good teams like Kerry never do that, never let up on the intensity.
If that is the case why did they not hammer Cavan into the ground ?

Kerry have no other hand to show, that is their problem.

keane2097

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Well why have they not shown their hand ?
What sort of hand did they show v Cork ?

They got a a scare at home v Cork, going for what looked like a very comfortable position in charge of the game to being in a position where they were hanging on
You would have expected them to then go out and thump a inexperienced, tried 3rd division team in Croke Park, but they didn't
Fair enough they ere not hanging on but their performance asked more questions than it answered.
So why where they holding some thing back ?
This year Pat Spillane criticised Mayo for essentially taking their foot off the pedal v Galway and Roscommom when the game was over, he implied that good teams like Kerry never do that, never let up on the intensity.
If that is the case why did they not hammer Cavan into the ground ?

Kerry have no other hand to show, that is their problem.

What Pat Spillane thinks is not illustrative of anything.

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

What Pat Spillane thinks is not illustrative of anything.

Yea I agree, but I'm sure I heard and read others say it too.

It's a bit like the debate you are having with the guy about Brogan, I am no fan of the theory that a team or a player are 'going to come good' at a certain time, when to date they have been average.
And there are some who believe that that is the case with Kerry in 2013.

keane2097

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yea I agree, but I'm sure I heard and read others say it too.

It's a bit like the debate you are having with the guy about Brogan, I am no fan of the theory that a team or a player are 'going to come good' at a certain time, when to date they have been average.
And there are some who believe that that is the case with Kerry in 2013.

I expect what people mean when they say "Kerry have yet to show their hand" is that Kerry are capable of either springing an unexpected tactical plan or they are capable of playing significantly than they have done so far this year on a one off basis.

Having spent an awful lot of time watching both teams play this year I'm a lot closer to backing Dublin -3 than Kerry +3, but neither of the above two possibilities are as far beyond the realms of possibility and your posts seem to suggest.

Kerry, more than any other team this year by a vast distance, needed to get to this stage without exerting themselves, as like last year they probably only have one really big performance in them. They certainly weren't going to waste any energy trying to obliterate Cavan and showed it pretty plainly in the substitutions they made.

Playing as they played against Tyrone last year - at least up until the point that the game was won and they started the dreadful fouling - Kerry would most certainly push Dublin very, very close. Playing like they did against Donegal and have done mostly this year, they'll probably lose by five or six.

Maybe they don't have another performance of that level in them, I think it's pretty easy to imagine they could do.

Oregano_State

I think the absence of James O'Donoghue against Cavan had a bigger part to play that many people are taking into account. In the first half against Cork he was on fire, linking up with Cooper and Declan O'Sullivan. He plays at a higher tempo than Donaghy which I think will work better against a mobile Dublin defence.

In both the Munster final and Quarter final, Kerry changed their tactics dramatically in the second half, having built up a lead in the first. I don't think they will attempt the same thing against Dublin; they will have to play for 70 minutes to stand a chance of winning. It could be that the management had decided the team weren't ready to go gung-ho for a whole game that early in the season. Now is the time Kerry usually start peaking, so I expect a big performance from them. Whether that will be enough to win is a different issue, and depends largely on what Dublin bring to the table on the day.

I don't agree that this team is a poor imitation of that from 2011. There is a new manager, and altered tactics. Just because many of the players are the same, doesn't change those two facts.

InchicoreDude

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yea I agree, but I'm sure I heard and read others say it too.

It's a bit like the debate you are having with the guy about Brogan, I am no fan of the theory that a team or a player are 'going to come good' at a certain time, when to date they have been average.
And there are some who believe that that is the case with Kerry in 2013.

I see your point and agree with it. However, sometimes teams can improve as the season progress. In fact every good team should improve. They should strive to learn something from each game they play. That means a team that has been average can "come good" in later stages in some instaces. Not saying that is necessarily gonna happen with Kerry but has certainly been the case with other teams in the past (even Cork & Clare in the hurling this year, both have improved with each game they have played)

Padkir

InchicoreDude wrote: »

I see your point and agree with it. However, sometimes teams can improve as the season progress. In fact every good team should improve. They should strive to learn something from each game they play. That means a team that has been average can "come good" in later stages in some instaces. Not saying that is necessarily gonna happen with Kerry but has certainly been the case with other teams in the past (even Cork & Clare in the hurling this year, both have improved with each game they have played)

If that bolded part comes true, I can't wait to watch Mayo on Sunday!

winteractive

I think people are underestimating the how far Kerry will go not to show their hand.

As a Kerryman I enjoy the propaganda that comes out of the Kerry camp nearly as much as the football.

"Sure we're the underdogs....."

corny

keane2097 wrote: »

Personally thought he should have been dropped pretty early on this year, Dublin's forwards on the bench are way too good to be putting up with passengers.

Overstating it a bit. Dublin have really only had one contest this year and Brogan played well in it. Against Cork it was obvious to see he kicked a couple into the keepers hands and hit the post when he should have scored but he had a good game in general play. He won a lot of dirty ball out of front of Shields and used it very well for the most part creating a couple of scores for others.

I agree he isn't the player he was but its rubbish to say he's a passenger with the options Dublin have. KK, Flynn and Rock are the only Dublin forwards who've consistently been good this year. Mannion excelled in the non contests and against Mickey Burke (Brogan would have destroyed him) but was largely anonymous against a decent defender. Connolly was a hindrance in the build up play against Cork and has done little damage with the ball all season. O' Gara, Andrews, Cullen and Costello have done little to indicate they'd fair better than BB when the going gets tough either. McManamon will always be used from the bench.

Dublins high scoring totals this year haven't really come scintillating play from the forwards. Its the numbers coming from deep doing the damage. That and Stephen Cluxton.

Brogan can still be a match winner. He'll take Kerrys best marker next day or another double team effort but its not a forlorn hope he'll be just that.

winteractive

corny wrote: »

Overstating it a bit. Dublin have really only had one contest this year and Brogan played well in it. Against Cork it was obvious to see he kicked a couple into the keepers hands and hit the post when he should have scored but he had a good game in general play. He won a lot of dirty ball out of front of Shields and used it very well for the most part creating a couple of scores for others.

I agree he isn't the player he was but its rubbish to say he's a passenger with the options Dublin have. KK, Flynn and Rock are the only Dublin forwards who've consistently been good this year. Mannion excelled in the non contests and against Mickey Burke (Brogan would have destroyed him) but was largely anonymous against a decent defender. Connolly was a hindrance in the build up play against Cork and has done little damage with the ball all season. O' Gara, Andrews, Cullen and Costello have done little to indicate they'd fair better than BB when the going gets tough either. McManamon will always be used from the bench.

Dublins high scoring totals this year haven't really come scintillating play from the forwards. Its the numbers coming from deep doing the damage. That and Stephen Cluxton.

Brogan can still be a match winner. He'll take Kerrys best marker next day or another double team effort but its not a forlorn hope he'll be just that.

Kerry have plenty of things to fear from Dublin but Brogan is not one of them.

Ed Winchester

winteractive wrote: »

Kerry have plenty of things to fear from Dublin but Brogan is not one of them.

Watch who picks him up. Guaranteed its Marc O'Sé.

winteractive

Ed Winchester wrote: »

Watch who picks him up. Guaranteed its Marc O'Sé.

Shane Enright i'd say.

keane2097

I'd expect Marc to pick up Brogan alright, Enright's pace would be a better match for Mannion and I'd think Griffin would be the best match up for Rock/Andrews/O'Gara in terms of physicality.

Stoner

There is nothing unknown about kerry, of all the teams in Ireland we know the most about Kerry.

Kerry have no hand that they have not shown to devastating affect on many occasions

They are not under and radar apart from one Kerry people are creating.

This kerry team have been contenders for 10 years, they have won plenty in that time so they have never been dangerous due to being quite, underestimated, hidden, untested etc.

Anyone who wrote kerry off over the past 10 years for any of the above reasons was foolish, how could anyone write off a team that had won an all ireland so recently and kerry were in that position for a long time.

The only argument against Kerry would have been putting back to back AIs they did that once but every team finds it difficult to perform two years in a row so this argument is not peculiar to kerry, it's a modern fact.

Kerry did not win the Al last year so there is no reason to underestimate them now.

ProudDUB

I'd bet my house on Marc O'Se marking BB too. Anyone who thinks he should be dropped needs their heads examined. I bet the people who say that never go to Dublin games in person. They only watch them on TV. If you think that what he scores is the only bench mark for how well he is playing, that is fair enough. But there are loads of things the telly does not show. He automatically draws other teams best markers, and if he so much as looks at a ball, 2-3 players automatically descend on him, coz it is in their heads what he can & not what he is actually doing in a game. There is a reason why Paddy Andrews (before he got injured) and Paul Mannion are having the good seasons that they are. Trust me, if BB wasn't there, there is no way in hell they would be getting the scores that they are. And as for his scoring being the only way to measure how well he is playing...well why not ask that Cadogan lad from Cork how much he enjoyed marking him in their recent quarter final encounter & you'll soon have your answer !

Poor_old_gill

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'd bet my house on Marc O'Se marking BB too. Anyone who thinks he should be dropped needs their heads examined. I bet the people who say that never go to Dublin games in person. They only watch them on TV. If you think that what he scores is the only bench mark for how well he is playing, that is fair enough. But there are loads of things the telly does not show. He automatically draws other teams best markers, and if he so much as looks at a ball, 2-3 players automatically descend on him, coz it is in their heads what he can & not what he is actually doing in a game. There is a reason why Paddy Andrews (before he got injured) and Paul Mannion are having the good seasons that they are. Trust me, if BB wasn't there, there is no way in hell they would be getting the scores that they are. And as for his scoring being the only way to measure how well he is playing...well why not ask that Cadogan lad from Cork how much he enjoyed marking him in their recent quarter final encounter & you'll soon have your answer !

Cadogan is a poor man marker though and that was a terrible match-up on Counihan's part.

Cadogan got torn apart by both James O Donoghue & Declan O Sullivan against Kerry and then he was taken off.

I don't want to start an argument with you-but you mention other people not watching games/not going to them and seeing the full picture- you need to watch more Cork games before you describe Cadogan as a 'man-marker' because he certainly isn't a good one

Poor_old_gill

keane2097 wrote: »

I'd expect Marc to pick up Brogan alright, Enright's pace would be a better match for Mannion and I'd think Griffin would be the best match up for Rock/Andrews/O'Gara in terms of physicality.

I always find stories of Enright's pace surprising because he has such am unorthodox gait that he never looks like he is moving particularly quickly- he looks quite cumbersome when running.

I have been assured though that he is very quick!

TheGoldenAges

Nobody's mentioning Alan brogan, true he won't he match fit but having him there will surely help Bernard. I reckon he'll make a big impact from the bench

Interesting to note since Alan last played, vs Meath in the Leinster final last year, Bernard hasn't been putting up the big scores like he used to. With Alan and Bernard getting league game time behind them next year I think we'll see the 2010 and 2011 footballers of the year come good again

aveytare

Would be great to see Alan back alright.

ciarriaithuaidh

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

I always find stories of Enright's pace surprising because he has such am unorthodox gait that he never looks like he is moving particularly quickly- he looks quite cumbersome when running.

I have been assured though that he is very quick!

Well if you watched the Cork game, you would have seen him keep pace, our outpace, Kerrigan quite a few times...that is pretty nifty believe me!

Brogan was brilliant in general play against Cork and didn't finish like he has done in the past..mainly off his left. If he clicks against Kerry, he could still be a matchwinner..and yes, Marc will have to take him. The other matchups depend on who plays for Dublin..I suspect Rock will be named 14. Griffin or Enright could get that job with Enright or Fionn Fitz picking up Mannion. There is also a possible scenario whereby Young would be dropped and Enright would man mark Connolly, but thats a bit out of left field.

I can't wait for this game anyway..big days like these only come around so often. Looking forward to having the craic with the jackeens that weekend.

manster

Anyone else hear that Cluxton is struggling with a hamstring injury?

Fr Tod Umptious

manster wrote: »

Anyone else hear that Cluxton is struggling with a hamstring injury?

Is it the same hamstring injury that Aidan O Shea has ?
But I think you might be a week too early telling us about it

Stoner

manster wrote: »

Anyone else hear that Cluxton is struggling with a hamstring injury?

Yes but I thought that was before the last game,
I can't ever see rock at 14. He is IMHO a true half forward, might not even be his type if game anyway he's better out the field having a pop from far out under pressure, I can't see the game going that way for either team.
Brogan is going to have to learn to play with the rest of the lads. I think he'll play well.

Poor_old_gill

manster wrote: »

Anyone else hear that Cluxton is struggling with a hamstring injury?

Really?
Excellent, Kerry might aswell start going easy in training as they'll win the game handy now so

DoctaDee

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Really?
Excellent, Kerry might aswell start going easy in training as they'll win the game handy now so

Slow day for ya brother ? :rolleyes:

winteractive

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'd bet my house on Marc O'Se marking BB too. Anyone who thinks he should be dropped needs their heads examined. I bet the people who say that never go to Dublin games in person. They only watch them on TV. If you think that what he scores is the only bench mark for how well he is playing, that is fair enough. But there are loads of things the telly does not show. He automatically draws other teams best markers, and if he so much as looks at a ball, 2-3 players automatically descend on him, coz it is in their heads what he can & not what he is actually doing in a game. There is a reason why Paddy Andrews (before he got injured) and Paul Mannion are having the good seasons that they are. Trust me, if BB wasn't there, there is no way in hell they would be getting the scores that they are. And as for his scoring being the only way to measure how well he is playing...well why not ask that Cadogan lad from Cork how much he enjoyed marking him in their recent quarter final encounter & you'll soon have your answer !

I've seen Brogan plenty of times and he always looks good against Longford and Wicklow! Oh and Carlow......

Ed Winchester

No credit for scoring 1-7 in an All Ireland semifinal against Cork?
No Credit for scoring 0-6 in an All Ireland final against Kerry?

listermint

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'd bet my house on Marc O'Se marking BB too. Anyone who thinks he should be dropped needs their heads examined. I bet the people who say that never go to Dublin games in person. They only watch them on TV. If you think that what he scores is the only bench mark for how well he is playing, that is fair enough. But there are loads of things the telly does not show. He automatically draws other teams best markers, and if he so much as looks at a ball, 2-3 players automatically descend on him, coz it is in their heads what he can & not what he is actually doing in a game. There is a reason why Paddy Andrews (before he got injured) and Paul Mannion are having the good seasons that they are. Trust me, if BB wasn't there, there is no way in hell they would be getting the scores that they are. And as for his scoring being the only way to measure how well he is playing...well why not ask that Cadogan lad from Cork how much he enjoyed marking him in their recent quarter final encounter & you'll soon have your answer !

The lad is also super at picking up messy messy balls sent his direction. One of the only things off about his game this year has been the finishing. Which i think he will come good again.