So its quiet around here

Overheal

...and I assume its because we all gave up on the media outlets. Or otherwise gave up on the sorry state of affairs.

Its hard not to feel a little disillusioned, like the conversation is all rather pointless. Whatever your opinion, the government seems to do whatever the hell it wants, spy on whoever it wants, do whatever it wants regardless of whether its constitutional or not. The public for the most part either doesn't care or doesn't want to talk about it. Or doesn't understand it. The number of customers I see with passwords as cryptic as Sarah1234, just indicates to me the level of technical literacy around the issue. You can't really be that upset about something you don't quite understand.

And what is the government doing exactly? Well, among other things, congress passed over 40 motions to repeal Obamacare. Thats going well. And for the same reasons people struggle to get upset with the NSA, congress seems technically incapable of comprehending the kind of crime that happens on wall street, and completely indifferent to the broken nature of the government. And the administration tried to focus on gun control, but lets not go there.

So what happens next? Are we really in for 3 more years of nothing, leading up to a really piss poor election where again nothing happens until the country implodes? Seriously. I don't see how the current state of affairs is sustainable.

Carcharodon

Both sides can blame each other and I have strong opinions myself but the sooner everyone realizes that the government as a whole is a shambles, it doesn't matter who's in office, disturbing thinking about some of the stuff you mentioned.
I still pay close attention but too busy having to work all the time to really care anymore.

Republicans vow to boycott CNN and BBC because of bias towards Hillary Clinton, this is what we are dealing with here....

InTheTrees

I see Obamacare as the most important legislation to happen in the usa for a very long time.

The panicked GOP response is witness to their fear of it. They've misplayed the entire issue right up to this final effort where they're going to have to explain to the american public why closing down the government once again because they dont want us to have affordable healthcare is a good idea. Nobody thinks they'll succeed.

The state of the republican party is also pretty interesting. After the debacle of the Mccain/palin candidacy, democrats were a little worried that republicans would see the light and get their sh*t together but instead they're floundering in confusion. The republicans main schtick right now appears to be voter suppression and anti-abortion. Oh and blanket Anti-anything Obama.

InTheTrees

Carcharodon wrote: »

but the sooner everyone realizes that the government as a whole is a shambles, it doesn't matter who's in office,

Thats a familiar refrain. Except I dread to think how a mccain palin presidency and a gop controlled house would have worked out for the country.

I dont see the republican party as being the same as the democrats at all.

Carcharodon

InTheTrees wrote: »

Thats a familiar refrain. Except I dread to think how a mccain palin presidency and a gop controlled house would have worked out for the country.

I dont see the republican party as being the same as the democrats at all.

I don't either but since they are in this circus together then there is joint responsibility, that bubble some of the extremists live in Will never be penetrated so it's a matter of muddling through and hopefully getting some form of cooperation in the future. Or all the republicans move to Texas :pac:

InTheTrees

Carcharodon wrote: »

I don't either but since they are in this circus together then there is joint responsibility, that bubble some of the extremists live in Will never be penetrated so it's a matter of muddling through and hopefully getting some form of cooperation in the future. Or all the republicans move to Texas :pac:

I agree.

The media bears a lot of blame for its very soft handling of interviewee. Both sides like to claim the other is favoured but I think its more of a general incompetence among the media.

...i could be wrong tough.

Amerika

"Now is the winter of our discontent"

clairefontaine

I'm still suprised Hillary didn't win the last primary.

I hate John McCain. I also hate Obama. I didn't vote last time.

It's depressing really.

Yes three years of nothing by the big O. The big ZERO.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

"Now is the winter of our discontent"

Care to elaborate? Given that it's August and I suspect sometime in 2008 was the low point for you.

clairefontaine

Brian? wrote: »

Care to elaborate? Given that it's August and I suspect sometime in 2008 was the low point for you.

It means things are bad.

I read a comment we spend 20 billion a year on air conditioning the troops in Afghanistan.

It's utterly depressing that since my little one was born we have been at war and there is a generation of kids growing up thinking war is a constant norm. It makes me so sick to think of it.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

being at war is pretty normal for america

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's utterly depressing that since my little one was born we have been at war and there is a generation of kids growing up thinking war is a constant norm. It makes me so sick to think of it.

It's hardly like their lives are affected by it.

Amerika

Brian? wrote: »

Care to elaborate? Given that it's August and I suspect sometime in 2008 was the low point for you.

Isn’t it obvious? It represents a melancholy attitude of general disaffection with our political leaders and the overall state of things. Observing a country who’s people have developed a "give me" attitude, regardless of the consequences which allows the leadership to degrade a nation, and a media who ignores its journalistic integrity simply to protect a moment in history.

And 2008 was more of a WTF moment with the election of an amateur to the highest office (although McCain wasn’t much better I must admit). 2009 started off with hope, which was quickly dashed by reality. And things has been going down hill ever since. I'm tired of winter -- tired of fighting the good fight in dealing with an uninformed and low information electorate!

Overheal

Maybe we've entered a political depression: so little is being done the last few years that people have given up on politics. Its so much easier to think about X Factor or some bull**** because you can text to vote for the winner and you get the gratification of picking a winner. Meanwhile: congress. Yeah. Congress.

I place a lot of the blame on the swooping public platform of the GOP declaring how they refuse to work bi-laterally and the inane promises to not shut down obamacare but promises to make every attempt to do so. So come the next election they can say Hey we promised we would try and now they tried so hard that they've entered some kind of bizarre causality loop where if they start actually getting work done they think their base will abandon them. Like a kid who continues to tantrum long after he remembers what he was mad about just to save face.

Well **** that. If you are supported by a supporter base that is really going to abandon you for breaking a promise that was stupid to begin with, in order to effect changes that are in the best interests of the country instead, well then those voters are frankly not worth retaining.

Plenty of blame to go around though. The long election cycles and the vitriolic comments back and forth have pitted the parties against each other to the point where the sides feel like they can't back down or they'll lose some political advantage. And the other half of the problem too is the lobbyism that has no doubt paralyzed the system. Broken broken broken system

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

I place a lot of the blame on the swooping public platform of the GOP declaring how they refuse to work bi-laterally and the inane promises to not shut down obamacare but promises to make every attempt to do so. So come the next election they can say Hey we promised we would try and now they tried so hard that they've entered some kind of bizarre causality loop where if they start actually getting work done they think their base will abandon them. Like a kid who continues to tantrum long after he remembers what he was mad about just to save face.

Hmmm... I'm curious Overheal. Do you talk to people your age about health care insurance mandate under ObamaCare? If they don’t currently have it, will they be getting it as dictated under the federal mandate, or just pay the penalty? Are they waiting to see what the rates will be (which will be substantially much higher for the young than they are now), or wait to see the amount of government subsidies they will receive to help pay for it (which now is estimated to add $1.9 Trillion to the deficit, when it was promised to not add one penny to the deficit -- in order to get it passed) before making their decision? And what do they think about so many jobs in this country now becoming part time in order for businesses to avoid the health care mandate on insurance?

InTheTrees

Here's a story about the misleading propaganda Ads being put out against ObamaCare by the conservative anti-obama group "Americans for prosperity". (you have to love the soviet style names of these groups.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/11/americans-for-prosperity-obamacare_n_3580018.html

Amerika

Hmmm... Wouldn’t think anyone here would be bothered in the least bit about hurling false assumptions on obamacare.

And here's what you need to know. First, I will not sign a plan that adds one dime to our deficits -- either now or in the future. (Applause.) I will not sign it if it adds one dime to the deficit, now or in the future, period. And to prove that I'm serious, there will be a provision in this plan that requires us to come forward with more spending cuts if the savings we promised don't materialize.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-to-a-Joint-Session-of-Congress-on-Health-Care

Now, the CBO says that the gross cost of Obamacare's insurance coverage provisions over the 9-year span from 2014 through 2022 would be $1.674 trillion. Even if one were to assume that Obamacare's annual costs, which the CBO says would rise by between 3.6 and 9.5 percent during each of the final five years of its scoring, would suddenly stop rising altogether in 2023 and would remain at $256 billion — the cost for 2022 — the tally for Obamacare's real first decade (2014-23) would be $1.930 trillion.

Really, it would be much higher. That's because this tally, as the CBO notes, merely reflects the cost of Obamacare's "insurance coverage provisions," not the cost of Obamacare as a whole. Based on previous CBO estimates, Obamacare's overall 10-year costs would likely eclipse $2.5 trillion. This would be alarming enough without taking into account this additional consideration: Experience strongly suggests that the CBO is underestimating, rather than overestimating, the cost of this huge expansion of federal power.

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/30/157587027/weekly-standard-obamacare-to-cost-1-93-trillion

So, shouldn’t everyone, both from the Left and Right, be demanding Obama repeal ObamaCare (as we know “spending cuts” is not in his vocabulary)? Or did I miss his executive order to increase spending cuts by an additional $2 Trillion, based on his own mandated and required provision? And please don't insult our intelligence by claiming tax increases are spending cuts.

clairefontaine

http://www.american.com/archive/2013/august/america-3-0-the-coming-reinvention-of-america

This is a very interesting article on Americas transformations. Maybe things aren't as depressing. We are just changing.

Amerika

clairefontaine wrote: »

http://www.american.com/archive/2013/august/america-3-0-the-coming-reinvention-of-america

This is a very interesting article on Americas transformations. Maybe things aren't as depressing. We are just changing.

If only any of us would live long enough to see it!

Unfortunately, IMO the legalization of addition of 15 to 20 million, and still counting, more illegal aliens; continued and expanding regulations devastating businesses and ultimately individuals; the ever growing move towards socialism; and whatever else will be coming out of the minds of our democratic friends, negates that hope for change.

clairefontaine

Amerika wrote: »

If only any of us would live long enough to see it!

Unfortunately, IMO the legalization of addition of 15 to 20 million, and still counting, more illegal aliens; continued and expanding regulations devastating businesses and ultimately individuals; the ever growing move towards socialism; and whatever else will be coming out of the minds of our democratic friends, negates that hope for change.

America historically goes through these rough patches and comes out the other end. These days with the NSA reminds me of a new McCarthyism. It too shall pass.

At least in the US there is always counter argument. Someone is always going to fight back. It doesn't happen overnight.

If you look at the taxes after WW2 they were phenomenally high. Sure some of it fed the Marshall plan, but people saw roads being built, schools being built, etc. Now we see it going into abstractions an futile military endeavours. That's what's making people despair.

clairefontaine

@ overheal.

Our healthcare is ridiculous.

I went to the doctor for a check up. No symptoms, no pain, nothing. I come out with a referral to a radiologist for a mammogram, a referral to a gastroenteritis for a colonoscopy, a full set of bloods and a repeat smear test.

That's about 4 or 5 specialist expensive appointments for someone who has NO symptoms.

And we wonder why it's so expensive. The system forcing people to avail of this will push up the prices even further because demand will increase while supply does of increase. What Obama or somebody should do, as challenge all the appointment making, the annual check up protocol, and why it costs $300 to see a doctor for a chest infection in the first place. Obama has it totally arsedways.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

And we wonder why it's so expensive. The system forcing people to avail of this will push up the prices even further because demand will increase while supply does of increase. What Obama or somebody should do, as challenge all the appointment making, the annual check up protocol, and why it costs $300 to see a doctor for a chest infection in the first place. Obama has it totally arsedways.

Its a mess alright, Your "GP" is just a basic facilitator now. His job is to to pass you along to specialists who will sort out your issues one at a time. (And take a substantial cut in the process).

It costs $300 for a doctors appointment because your doctor is paying $200 for Malpractice insurance just in case you have some condition that he didnt notice and you sue him to recover some of the exorbitant costs charged by the specialists that your insurance company wont cover.

He's also probably paying out $90 to cover the cost of his student loan that will probably take most of is life to pay off because of the price of education.

I understand your frustration but saying Obama has it backwards is ignoreing twenty years of public debate on how to fix the system. For eight years with Bush we had to listen to platitudes about their plan for insurance companies to introduce cheaper Policies by simple including less benefits. Except they were doing that to everyone already.

SO what is an actual practical solution beyond saying he should just fix it?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

And please don't insult our intelligence by claiming...

Ummm.

Wouldnt insulting our intelligence be presenting the costs of Obamacare without any mention of the astronomical costs we are currently paying and will continue to pay without any change?

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Our healthcare is ridiculous.

I went to the doctor for a check up. No symptoms, no pain, nothing. I come out with a referral to a radiologist for a mammogram, a referral to a gastroenteritis for a colonoscopy, a full set of bloods and a repeat smear test.

That's about 4 or 5 specialist expensive appointments for someone who has NO symptoms.

But you went for a medical.

here's no way your GP wold do a Mammogram. Or a colonoscopy. Your appointment would be a lot more than $300 if he did.

You go to a Polyclinic. There's a few around the puget sound. They're a kind of one stop shop.

But this is the system that Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to retain. Its been evolving this way since the 40's.

esteve

Amerika wrote: »

Unfortunately, IMO the legalization of addition of 15 to 20 million, and still counting, more illegal aliens;

You only have yourself to blame for this in relation to illegal Mexican immigrants. Prior to the North American 'Free' Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which was created and put through by the US, the US-Mexican border was for the majority, open. I mean open in the sense that there was no wall, obviously there were border checks. Then this beautiful trade agreement was signed, and the lower class mexican farmer got screwed, and then started to emigrate from Mexico to the US. The government knew this would happen as it was so completely obvious, so pretty much at the same time as getting this trade agreement signed, went about redeveloping the Mexican-US border in foresight of the increased immigration they would expect to the US. This is a perfect example of the wealthy elite, through politicians, pushing a policy that only benefitted themelves, the politicians, and a select few, while the average Mexican, and US citizen, has had to live with the consequences. For good measure, it was Bill Clinton who was responsible for this.

My own disclaimer here, obviously prior to this there had always been Mexicans going to the US, but from the mid 90s onwards it exploded, and there is a clear reason why, NAFTA.

clairefontaine

true. NAFTA was not a good move.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

SO what is an actual practical solution beyond saying he should just fix it?

You know, I remember thinking that stories about ObamaCare being designed in such a utterly horrific manner that we would be forced into a Single Payer system or crash and burn healthcare, was simply the stuff of tin hat theorists.

Fast forward... Well, earlier this month on PBS’ Nevada Week In Review, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was asked whether his goal was to move Obamacare to a single-payer system.

His answer? “Yes, yes. Absolutely, yes.”

Can you say stalking horse? Apparently not so tin hatish after all.

esteve

clairefontaine wrote: »

true. NAFTA was not a good move.

Some people will argue it was, not I. It was an extremely devisive decision, that has completely polarized opinion. I think now though, we have the beauty of hindsight, and the proof is in the pudding.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

You know, I remember thinking that stories about ObamaCare being designed in such a utterly horrific manner that we would be forced into a Single Payer system or crash and burn healthcare, was simply the stuff of tin hat theorists.

Nonsense.

By any measure France's healthcare system is the best the world can come up with. Can you explain the differences between France's system and ObamaCare?

Neither can you describe a republican alternative. Just the constant hysterical negativity, parroted from right wing talk radio.

"less part time jobs, huge costs, socialism, big government blah bah blah..."

Describe how Republicans plan on fixing US healthcare? Seriously. Please. Give us something. Tell us what plan Republicans have to present to voters as an alternative? How will republicans fix the problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Nonsense.

By any measure France's healthcare system is the best the world can come up with. Can you explain the differences between France's system and ObamaCare?

Neither can you describe a republican alternative. Just the constant hysterical negativity, parroted from right wing talk radio.

"less part time jobs, huge costs, socialism, big government blah bah blah..."

Describe how Republicans plan on fixing US healthcare? Seriously. Please. Give us something. Tell us what plan Republicans have to present to voters as an alternative? How will republicans fix the problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_France

Nonsense back atcha!

Don’t know much of France’s health care so couldn’t comment on it. But I understand their economy is suffering more than any other EU member from a deterioration in competitiveness, and is now facing a fiscal crisis. Sa la vie.

The GOP is dead… RIP! The GOP offered at least 3 alternatives to ObamaCare that I’m aware of… and where did they go? The GOP may control the House now, but what good is it? Anything of substance passed in the House is killed in the Senate. And even if something (not of progressive origin) would get through the Senate, Obama will veto it. And even if the GOP would happen to capture the Senate in 2014 by the grace of god, it would take a combined 2/3 majority to overturn a presidential veto, which will never happen. Hillary Clinton’s coronation in scheduled for 2016. Face it, since 2009, the sad state of the nation’s affairs and the ever-progressing death of America as we know it is on hands of the Democrats, no matter how the media spins it.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Nonsense back atcha!

Don’t know much of France’s health care so couldn’t comment on it. .

The how can you say nonsense if you dont know anything about it? It doesnt look like you've actually given the issue very mch thought then does it?

This is pretty much the republican argument against Obamacare:

"Big governement and socialism"

Thats pretty much all they can come up with.

The GOP offered at least 3 alternatives to ObamaCare that I’m aware of

Hmm. SO you're aware of alternatives but you don't want to share then with us? Or did you forget?

clairefontaine

I know about Frances healthcare. It's fabulous and its bursting at the seams financially. Also goes with french taxes. You like paying 80%?

Would never work in the USA. We are too customer oriented, I want my own birth room with a 48" tv, cable, a doula, a foot messager, and a birthing pool. Don't forget the double bed with 600 thread count Pima cotton sheets. Ok exaggerating but its along those lines.

The French would laugh at you and tell you to piss off. If you did that in the US the patient would have you in front of the medical board in no time.

It's a completely different philosophy around medicine, like a vocation, a public service.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know about Frances healthcare. It's fabulous and its bursting at the seams financially. Also goes with french taxes. You like paying 80%?

Would never work in the USA. We are too customer oriented, I want my own birth room with a 48" tv, cable, a doula, a foot messager, and a birthing pool. Don't forget the double bed with 600 thread count Pima cotton sheets. Ok exaggerating but its along those lines.

The French would laugh at you and tell you to piss off. If you did that in the US the patient would have you in front of the medical board in no time.

It's a completely different philosophy around medicine, like a vocation, a public service.

SO you're resigned to the $300 check up then?

Nothing can be done, right?

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

SO you're resigned to the $300 check up then?

Nothing can be done right?

Nope. I don't go to the doctor.

Transparency in the medical professions would be a start. I want to see a list of prices on websites and is the reception area.

Make them be competive like other businesses. Get them on padding and price fixing too.

And open up the border so you can buy your pills from Canada.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Nope. I don't go to the doctor.

Transparency in the medical professions would be a start. I want to see a list of prices on websites and is the reception area.

Make them be competive like other businesses. Get them on padding and price fixing too.

And open up the border so you can buy your pills from Canada.

Ouch.

So just hope you dont get sick?

Is that an adequate healthcare "system" for a civilized country?

And who pays for your treatment if you're hit by a bus and bleeding in the street? Should those people be left to die?

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ouch.

So just hope you dont get sick?

Is that an adequate healthcare "system" for a civilized country?

And who pays for your treatment if you're hit by a bus and bleeding in the street? Should those people be left to die?

Yeah I know. It's pretty nuts.

I was talking to one small business over, sells used cars, who said if he got sick, everything he has would be confiscated. He can't afford insurance. And yet when Obama care kicks in, he'll have to let employees go because he can't afford that either.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yeah I know. It's pretty nuts.

I was talking to one small business over, sells used cars, who said if he got sick, everything he has would be confiscated. He can't afford insurance. And yet when Obama care kicks in, he'll have to let employees go because he can't afford that either.

The law is that if its over fifty employees then he has to buy it. Otherwise not. SO either he has over fifty employees or he's confused or he's lying to you.

And if he has over fifty employees and doesnt provide any insurance at all then, thats unusual and he needs to go to business school.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

Yeah I know. It's pretty nuts.

Well you only have another month or two before the new insurance plans will be available. Although I think the benefits dont start until Jan 1st.

I believe Washington State's Insurance options wont be available until the end of this month. But Oregon already has its web page up for buying the insurance plans and estimating how much you'll have to pay, check it out:

http://www.coveroregon.com/calculators/individual-calculator/

Stingerbar

clairefontaine wrote: »

I know about Frances healthcare. It's fabulous and its bursting at the seams financially. Also goes with french taxes. You like paying 80%?

There are a lot of myths surrounding this.

For example, I'm in a bordering country, and if I were to earn let's say approx 4000 per month, I would pay about 1300 tax. It's just less than a third really. Quite a bit. However for that tax I get..

A very complete healthcare system with no nasty clauses, pretty much covers everything, all the way from doctors visits and perscription drugs up to serious hospital treatment.

On the work related side, I get up to 40 days holiday a year (translates into about 7 to 8 weeks paid holidays), paid career breaks, very solid job security and a good social welfare safety net if I were to lose my job.

I'm not saying one system is better than the other, but I just feel there is this residual paranoia in the States of anything resembling communism socialism and a huge reluctance to change the status quo.

Obviously I'd love to pay less tax, but for pure peace of mind, I prefer the "European" model.

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

Hmm. SO you're aware of alternatives but you don't want to share then with us? Or did you forget?

Here are a few for your reading enjoyment. Testing will take place in two days.

2009
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/GOPHealthPlan_061709.pdf

Paul Ryan’s plan
http://paulryan.house.gov/healthcare/#.UhYNYtJJOuI

2013 (H.R.2300 )
http://tomprice.house.gov/sites/tomprice.house.gov/files/HR%202300%20Section%20by%20Section.pdf

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

Here are a few for your reading enjoyment. Testing will take place in two days.

2009
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/GOPHealthPlan_061709.pdf

Paul Ryan’s plan
http://paulryan.house.gov/healthcare/#.UhYNYtJJOuI

2013 (H.R.2300 )
http://tomprice.house.gov/sites/tomprice.house.gov/files/HR%202300%20Section%20by%20Section.pdf

My reading enjoyment? They are your parties alternative to the leglslation we were talking about. SO which do you think is the most viable?

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

My reading enjoyment? They are your parties alternative to the leglslation we were talking about. SO which do you think is the most viable?

ObamaCare is the law of the land (although the Obama regime believes they can keep changing the law to suit themselves). All the GOP proposals are nothing more than a moot point and worthless as ObamaCare will not be repealed or replaced until our economy crumbles or we move into a single payer system. We've got to just learn to live with the train wreck for now.

InTheTrees

Stingerbar wrote: »

There are a lot of myths surrounding this.

If there's one thing the US right wingers really really hate its comparing the United States unfavorably with any other country. On any topic. They never do it. And they'll heap scorn on anything who tries.

SO that some of them are under the impression the french pay 80% tax, or that their economy is collapsing, is understandable, because they've been told this by people who know they'll never check.

And the criticisms you'll see here, seemingly incomplete and barely thought out, actually reflect pretty closely the opposition within the US. Its just distortions and half truths and spin, covered in regurgitated buzz words like Communism and Tax that are designed to scare people.

This ties in with the theme of this thread too because rational debate is getting harder and harder to find, so people dont really bother.

InTheTrees

Just to illustrate here's a great story about republicans in Louisana. 29% of them blame Obama for the lacklustre hurricane katrina response even though it was 3 ears before he took office. Classic:


"A large number of Louisiana Republicans think President Barack Obama is to blame for the federal government's poor response to Hurricane Katrina, according to a new Public Policy Polling survey released Wednesday -- despite the fact that the storm occurred three years before he took office.
The Democratic-leaning polling firm, which provided its results to Talking Points Memo, found that 29 percent of Louisiana Republicans said Obama was responsible for the Katrina response. Twenty-eight percent put the blame on President George W. Bush, whose administration did in fact oversee the federal response to Katrina. Nearly half (44 percent) of the Louisiana Republicans polled didn't know who to blame."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/obama-hurricane-katrina_n_3790612.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

If there's one thing the US right wingers really really hate its comparing the United States unfavorably with any other country. On any topic. They never do it. And they'll heap scorn on anything who tries.

SO that some of them are under the impression the french pay 80% tax, or that their economy is collapsing, is understandable, because they've been told this by people who know they'll never check.

And the criticisms you'll see here, seemingly incomplete and barely thought out, actually reflect pretty closely the opposition within the US. Its just distortions and half truths and spin, covered in regurgitated buzz words like Communism and Tax that are designed to scare people.

This ties in with the theme of this thread too because rational debate is getting harder and harder to find, so people dont really bother.

Hmmm... We do know France is in an economic crisis. France's manufactured products cost far too much to produce compared with competing goods from its neighbors and Asia, and the rapid deterioration in its foreign trade is the result. Taxes keep going up to pay for government spending, which is now 57% of GDP, and increasing. The lowering of social benefits is inevitable, wouldn't you agree?

The right wing as you call us might not know all that France does and faces, but yes… we simply refuse to worship the quicksand they walk on, no matter how good their health care is today.

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

If there's one thing the US right wingers really really hate its comparing the United States unfavorably with any other country. On any topic. They never do it. And they'll heap scorn on anything who tries.

SO that some of them are under the impression the french pay 80% tax, or that their economy is collapsing, is understandable, because they've been told this by people who know they'll never check.

And the criticisms you'll see here, seemingly incomplete and barely thought out, actually reflect pretty closely the opposition within the US. Its just distortions and half truths and spin, covered in regurgitated buzz words like Communism and Tax that are designed to scare people.

This ties in with the theme of this thread too because rational debate is getting harder and harder to find, so people dont really bother.

In the trees, yes some do pay 80%. Why do you think Deppardieu left France. Others too.

And ask anyone, the French system can't go on. They are bursting at the seams with it.

InTheTrees

clairefontaine wrote: »

In the trees, yes some do pay 80%. Why do you think Deppardieu left France. Others too.

And ask anyone, the French system can't go on. They are bursting at the seams with it.

"Ask anyone" really doesnt mean much. The modern equivalent would be to google it right?

Did you? If you did you would see some negative numbers for August but generally there's growth right? The country is not by any measure collapsing, imploding or heading into recession.

Right?

And anyway, how does that relate to the efficiency of the healthcare system? Are you implying the healthcare system in france is draging the economy down with it?

SO alright. You (and fox news) hate France and their socialist distopia, is there any country in the world that has a system that is better than the current US system?

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

The right wing as you call us might not know all that France does and faces, but yes… we simply refuse to worship the quicksand they walk on, no matter how good their health care is today.

QED

clairefontaine

InTheTrees wrote: »

"Ask anyone" really doesnt mean much. The modern equivalent would be to google it right?

Did you? If you did you would see some negative numbers for August but generally there's growth right? The country is not by any measure collapsing, imploding or heading into recession.

Right?

And anyway, how does that relate to the efficiency of the healthcare system? Are you implying the healthcare system in france is draging the economy down with it?

SO alright. You (and fox news) hate France and their socialist distopia, is there any country in the world that has a system that is better than the current US system?

I love France, and have availed of their healthcare myself. Have apent a lot of time in France. But it can't continue. The French know this too.

Let me tell you, I'd you want to be rich, become a French pharmacist. You can't leave a French doctors office without a prescription for piles of creams and pills. The lines in the pharmacy are always long and slow. Plus there are serious restrictions on what days and hours they can be open too.

You think Walgreens would take nicely to being told they can't open on a Sunday? Or the Feast of the Assumption?

Amerika

InTheTrees wrote: »

QED

QED??? That sounds rather "incomplete and barely thought out" if you ask me.

InTheTrees

Amerika wrote: »

QED??? That sounds rather "incomplete and barely thought out" if you ask me.

*sigh*

Google it.

No, its more about you two making my point;

You havent presented any argument except anecdotes (France is collapsing and all the french hate the place? yeah right.). And seem completely unable to. Probably because Fox News doesnt go into it with any more depth than that either.

The right wingers have nothing except blanket knee-jerk negativity against Obama. "Blah blah blah taxes blah blah blah communism blah blah blah". On and on and on.

Which is why Obamacare will go ahead and be implemented.

Its also the reason for this thread.