The case for Keith Earls to start ahead of BOD

JagerScout

Stats borrowed from another forum.
*Earls missed Wales game in 2012. Stats were taken from welsh game previous season.

Do these stats change your opinion on Keith Earls versus BOD?

Brian_Zeluz

Nope I still have the same opinion. BOD will forever be the starting 13 in my ultimate team and no amount of mortal stats will change that. I am of course tremendously biased.

its_phil

Brian O'Driscoll. Man of the match v Wales 2013.

Nuff said really

Hagz

Number and stats rarely change my opinion on anything to be honest. Especially stats that are as conspicuous as these.

'Earls missed Wales game in 2012. Stats were taken from welsh game previous season.'

I mean how non-sensical is that?! Especially as given Earl's try count, one can only assume that the stats were taken from the 2010 Welsh game where Earls scored two tries. So you have a mixture of his 2012 6N stats, and a game he played against Wales in 2010....right.

I mean at the end of the day, though my memories aren't vivd, I don't recall ever saying to myself in 2012 "you know what? Earls has played so well that I think he's good enough to oust Brian O'Driscoll at outside centre". So therefore no amount of figures will ever change that.

I will add though, that I do remember being satisfied with Earl's performances in the 2012 6nations. He looked capable of playing at 13 in the international arena.

tolosenc

Did Earls not say he was giving up on being a centre, or was I dreaming?

Hagz

tolosenc wrote: »

Did Earls not say he was giving up on being a centre, or was I dreaming?

No, he said that he was happy to play anywhere recently. I'm pretty sure he still prefers to play 13, but he appears to be more at ease with the idea of playing anywhere.

Swiwi.

I would echo the comments from the rugby jersey thread, that Keith should just hope to have an injury-free 2013/2014 and look to hit top form wherever he plays. Owing to previous defensive and distributive issues I would have some concerns about Keith as an international 13, but I wouldn't fully shut the door on him there yet. To a certain extent Schmidt will have to trial and error his selections as he seeks to find a longterm replacement for BOD.

danthefan

JagerScout wrote: »

Do these stats change your opinion on Keith Earls versus BOD?

No.

peterako

Earls is a bit selfish with the ball (or at best myopic with ball in hand).

Not the best attribute for said position....

Not a problem for a winger though!

So...NO....BOD still #1, Earls a good bit down the pecking order....

jm08

Whats really interesting in those stats is BOD 2009 v BOD 2013.

former legend

Those "stats" suggest that Earls was better in 2012 than O'Driscoll was in 2009. You know, when O'Driscoll single-handedly won us the Six Nations.

So, erm, serious pinch of salt required.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Whats really interesting in those stats is BOD 2009 v BOD 2013.

I'd be loathe to use stats from 2013 to judge anyone. It was a complete cluster**** of a season.

jm08

former legend wrote: »

Those "stats" suggest that Earls was better in 2012 than O'Driscoll was in 2009. You know, when O'Driscoll single-handedly won us the Six Nations.

So, erm, serious pinch of salt required.

Look at BOD's defence in 2009. 53 tackles - that was monumental for a centre. He also scored 4 tries. He passed the ball a lot less back then than he does now. I think its interesting to see how his game changed since then.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Look at BOD's defence in 2009. 53 tackles - that was monumental for a centre. He also scored 4 tries. He passed the ball a lot less back then than he does now. I think its interesting to see how his game changed since then.

Interesting that ESPNs interns have become less generous over the years

.ak

All I got from those stats is that BOD in 2009 wasn't human.

Grimebox

These stats are meaningless in comparison

Clareman

Ah j@ysus, this again, it must be the start of the season or a few months away for internationals or something.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a Cave vs. Earls discussion as BoD is the form Irish centre, he started 2 Lions tests, he was player of the 6N last year, he's BoD ffs.

Tim Robbins

Where do those stats show the inside pass Earls didn't give that cocked up a certain try in a VI nations match.

Earls is a far weaker player. You are talking one of the best players in the world against a player who wouldn't make most international teams and is not even in his best position.

It's a ridiculous argument

jamiedav2011

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Where do those stats show the inside pass Earls didn't give that cocked up a certain try in a VI nations match.

Earls is a far weaker player. You are talking one of the best players in the world against a player who wouldn't make most international teams and is not even in his best position.

It's a ridiculous argument

We really, really need to get over this now.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

All I got from those stats is that BOD in 2009 wasn't human.

Except you don't even get that from the stats.

Stats in rugby are useful as an aid for judging a player but they are not the be all and end all that they are in American sports.

y0ssar1an22

Am I missing something obvious here, but where are BODs stats from 2010-2012? Surly they should be included? Not just stats that reinforce one particular point of view.

Buer

So I don't like Ireland's Call and ROG or Humph, people?

Seeing as we're discussing mind-numbing topics that have been done to death....

jm08

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

Am I missing something obvious here, but where are BODs stats from 2010-2012? Surly they should be included? Not just stats that reinforce one particular point of view.

The stats come from a thread on Munsterfans that also gives the stats for J Davies & Conrad Smith over a series of 5 games against the same opposition which is reasonable enough sample to take from. I'd imagine the 2009 season for BOD was included because he had a phenomenal year in 2009 (and shows what it takes to win silverwear i.e., you need your top performers at the very top of their game.

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/25615-Earls-targets-centre-this-year/page13?p=1263362#post1263362

JagerScout

I believe the argument is that 2009 is considered BOD's best season, 2013 is his latest and 2012 is the only time earls had a similar opportunity at playing 13 consistently in a first string side. Earls at 13 in 2012 > BOD at 13 in 2013. I don't agree but thats the argument being made I believe.

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

So I don't like Ireland's Call and ROG or Humph, people?

Seeing as we're discussing mind-numbing topics that have been done to death....

Let's throw in Pacific Island poaching, Richie McCaw, Craig Joubert, the Haka for others topics that have only ever been briefly discussed

padser

JagerScout wrote: »

Stats borrowed from another forum.
*Earls missed Wales game in 2012. Stats were taken from welsh game previous season.

Do these stats change your opinion on Keith Earls versus BOD?

The may be a case for starting Earls ahead of BOD this year (I wouldn't personally, but can see some logic to it) but any suggestion that there is a case based on either the previous performances of Earls at 13 or any reasonable expectation of their relative strengths at 13 this coming is utter madness.

The only reason to consider it would be with building for the World Cup in mind.

.ak

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Let's throw in Pacific Island poaching, Richie McCaw, Craig Joubert, the Haka for others topics that have only ever been briefly discussed

They all suck. How'd you like them apples?

bilston

To be fair apart from the Welsh game BOD didn't have the best 6Ns so Earls might well have out performed him in 2012 if we're comparing the two years. But then Ireland were better in 2012 so while the stats are interesting they aren't confirmation of anything IMO.

Anyway I'd be worried if Earls wasn't at least close to the 34 year old BOD now. If he is the man who will have the 13 jersey in the future (obviously that's open to debate) then we'd probably need him to be putting an aging BOD under a bit of pressure now.

Swiwi.

.ak wrote: »

They all suck. How'd you like them apples?

Crisp juicy NZ apples can't be beat! Sadly by the time they arrive in Ireland on the ship they are usually mushy...

.ak

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Crisp juicy NZ apples can't be beat! Sadly by the time they arrive in Ireland on the ship they are usually mushy...

Hopefully it's the same for the ABs after a long season as they finish a long haul journey to landsdowne road.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

The stats come from a thread on Munsterfans that also gives the stats for J Davies & Conrad Smith over a series of 5 games against the same opposition which is reasonable enough sample to take from. I'd imagine the 2009 season for BOD was included because he had a phenomenal year in 2009 (and shows what it takes to win silverwear i.e., you need your top performers at the very top of their game.

http://www.munsterfans.com/threads/25615-Earls-targets-centre-this-year/page13?p=1263362#post1263362

BOD does not need to play like he did in 2009 for Ireland to win silverware. I can save you the time now; he will never again play like he did in 2009. No 13 in Ireland is capable of producing the Six Nations he did in 2009. That was the outstanding season of one of the most outstanding players to ever play the game. Judging BOD against himself in 2009 simply isn't fair and to suggest we need that type of season to win silverware is total nonsense. Earls is not going to usurp BOD as Irish 13 next season, let's just end this thread

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Oh jesus

irishbucsfan

5 games is not a good sample size for anyone of anything in any sport.

Rugby is a sport where it is currently impossible to define overall performance through statistics.

The source for the statistics is dreadfully inaccurate.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I just can't see any point to this thread.........I mean the whole Earls at 13 things has been done to absolute death, BOD is under no threat at 13 for Ireland.

Those stats are from Munsterfans btw

Mahatma Geansai

Anyone who has watched Earls any way objectively over the last few years, wouldn't be surprised by those stats. He is a very good centre who gets a hard time from some quarters because he was touted as BOD successor when he burst on the scene 4 years ago. Well, that's the only reason I can think of for such a quiet unassuming young man to receive such spite directed his way anyway.

Right now he needs to worry about his own fitness and confidence. Everything else should fall into place when that happens.

Bogota

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Anyone who has watched Earls any way objectively over the last few years, wouldn't be surprised by those stats. He is a very good centre who gets a hard time from some quarters because he was touted as BOD successor when he burst on the scene 4 years ago. Well, that's the only reason I can think of for such a quiet unassuming young man to receive such spite directed his way anyway.

Right now he needs to worry about his own fitness and confidence. Everything else should fall into place when that happens.

If he was a very good centre then Brad Barritt and Twelvetrees wouldn't have been selected ahead of him for the Lions. Both are very average international centres and still Earls was considered below them. Earl's doesn't receive any spite, hes a hard-working, decent center. However it gets tiresome to hear moaning about Earls being targeted with bias when in reality it is honest criticism.

Earls is 26 in a month and I can't see him making drastic strides all of a sudden. He's a versatile player to have around but I think he'll struggle to even make the Irish 15 with the form of BOD at 13 and Bowe and Zebo on the wings.

Swiwi.

.ak wrote: »

Hopefully it's the same for the ABs after a long season as they finish a long haul journey to landsdowne road.

Maybe Adidas or AIG will provide that special spray that keeps them ripe and not going rotten on the flight over from NZ. Then they will turn the perfect shade of black, and the Irish players will be so mesmerised, that the game will be a stroll in the park :pac:

bilston

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

BOD is under no threat at 13 for Ireland.

To be fair while I'm a BOD supporter in all of this I hope what you say isn't the case. We need someone to begin to challenge him this season. Whether its Earls or not remains to be seen.

Kayless

I wouldn't write Earls off at centre just yet, he put in a very solid performance during the 2012 6 nations and that was under Kidney!

To put this into context, Joe put's a massive emphasis on passing, right so if we take Earls statistics and add Joe into the mix I think we might have ourselves a very good 13.

Lets remember BOD wasn't always as good as he was in 2009, so I think Earls deserves another shot at the 13 jersey.

For a Leinster fan

former legend

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Oh jesus

+1 on that.

Beware of threads where the OP floats something controversial but doesn't give his own opinion. They usually descend into farce pretty quickly.

irishbucsfan

I think the real deciding factor will be, who would win in a fight between O'Gara and Sexton?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Bogota wrote: »

If he was a very good centre then Brad Barritt and Twelvetrees wouldn't have been selected ahead of him for the Lions. Both are very average international centres and still Earls was considered below them. Earl's doesn't receive any spite, hes a hard-working, decent center. However it gets tiresome to hear moaning about Earls being targeted with bias when in reality it is honest criticism.

Earls is 26 in a month and I can't see him making drastic strides all of a sudden. He's a versatile player to have around but I think he'll struggle to even make the Irish 15 with the form of BOD at 13 and Bowe and Zebo on the wings.

This ole nugget. Earls is criticized fairly, and has been many times without issue. But he got a huge amount of abuse from certain quarters when he was playing in the centre for Ireland, I cited the reaction to his break against Scotland as a good example

He's one of those Irish players, along with ROG, Sexton, Heaslip, POM, that brings out the inner child in some Irish "supporters"

Bogota

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

This ole nugget. Earls is criticized fairly, and has been many times without issue. But he got a huge amount of abuse from certain quarters when he was playing in the centre for Ireland, I cited the reaction to his break against Scotland as a good example

He's one of those Irish players, along with ROG, Sexton, Heaslip, POM, that brings out the inner child in some Irish "supporters"

The reaction to his break against Scotland was perfectly reasonable especially when it cost us a certain try that would have won us the game and when the player in question has previous.

The abuse Sexton and Heaslip got doesn't come close to what 'abuse' Earls gets. Both Sexton and Heaslip were in excellent form and were constantly targeted for unjustified criticism. ROG received some abuse but in a lot of cases he was justifiably criticized. I have yet to see where POM has been 'abused' other than people saying that he unnecessarily gets himself involved in off the ball incidents and while he doesn't give away much penalties he is prone to giving away absolutely stupid ones in dangerous positions (SOB is similarly criticized for this by the way), which is fair enough.
But shur, its all a conspiracy coming from 'certain quarters' (read Leinster fans :rolleyes: )

jm08

Bogota wrote: »

If he was a very good centre then Brad Barritt and Twelvetrees wouldn't have been selected ahead of him for the Lions. Both are very average international centres and still Earls was considered below them. Earl's doesn't receive any spite, hes a hard-working, decent center. However it gets tiresome to hear moaning about Earls being targeted with bias when in reality it is honest criticism.

Earls was injured so couldn't be considered (missing Quins game and started Clermont game when not fully fit before getting injured again).

He had a shoulder op and will miss the start of next season.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Bogota wrote: »

The reaction to his break against Scotland was perfectly reasonable especially when it cost us a certain try that would have won us the game and when the player in question has previous.

No it wasn't. But I guess that's the difference

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The source for the statistics is dreadfully inaccurate.

Since all the stats are from the same source, they would be equally inaccurate for everyone, so comparative.

Hype710

In the interests of an actual debate, where would Earls fit into people's first choice 23 for the Autumn Internationals? (Obviously form and fitness will play huge roles so this is hypothetical). Personally I'd have him missing out; Bowe and Zebo to start on the wings, Gilroy on the bench. A toss up between Earls and McFadden to come on the bench if an injury occurred to one of the above trio.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Bogota wrote: »

The reaction to his break against Scotland was perfectly reasonable especially when it cost us a certain try that would have won us the game and when the player in question has previous.

The abuse Sexton and Heaslip got doesn't come close to what 'abuse' Earls gets. Both Sexton and Heaslip were in excellent form and were constantly targeted for unjustified criticism. ROG received some abuse but in a lot of cases he was justifiably criticized. I have yet to see where POM has been 'abused' other than people saying that he unnecessarily gets himself involved in off the ball incidents and while he doesn't give away much penalties he is prone to giving away absolutely stupid ones in dangerous positions (SOB is similarly criticized for this by the way), which is fair enough.
But shur, its all a conspiracy coming from 'certain quarters' (read Leinster fans :rolleyes: )

So essentially you're saying it's just the Leinster players who get unfair abuse from Munster fans? A sort of unique phenomenon :rolleyes:

Bogota

jm08 wrote: »

Earls was injured so couldn't be considered (missing Quins game and started Clermont game when not fully fit before getting injured again).

He had a shoulder op and will miss the start of next season.

He returned from injury before the Lions announcement. Healy was also due surgery before start of next season, its the case for many players that they usually hold off until after the Lions tour. You can make excuses all you want but the fact of the matter is that Keith Earls simply wasn't good enough to displace even Twelvetrees and Barritt unfortunately.

.ak

This thread is running close to being closed, but the Leinster vs Munster crap definitely isn't helping. No more provincial jibes people. If you managed to get banned in silly season then I'll make you upload a silly avatar....

Bogota

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

So essentially you're saying it's just the Leinster players who get unfair abuse from Munster fans? A sort of unique phenomenon :rolleyes:

Nope I am saying that among the candidates listed, only Heaslip and Sexton got unfair abuse. I'm sure lots of Munster players have received unfair criticism from Leinster fans. I really think you need to take a deep breath and relax before replying