Gardai operating 'gotcha' speed traps.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So it's uniformly "safe" up to 100 km/h and then it's suddenly not safe?

Rubbish straw man argument.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So you don't know what speed you were driving at, but you do know that the unknown speed was safe?

You would want to be a bit simple to rely solely on your speedometer for driving at a safe speed.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

By your own admission you don't know what speed you were driving at.

How can you know that your unknown speed was a "safe" speed?

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.

Your entire argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that one cannot drive safely UNLESS he/she knows what speed he/she is doing. It's not possible to know this all of the time, so by your flawed logic, nobody can drive safely.

Your argument is bullshít, simple as. It's not that difficult to píss all over it...

Almaviva

Roger_007 wrote: »

I was leaving Dublin airport today driving on the link road from the roundabout on the old N1 towards the roundabout on the M1

Its a regular spot for them. And a good one - target rich. Their aim is to catch speeders, and they should be commended for once, for setting up where they can be most productive. There simply arent enough resources to properly enforce correct driving, so it must be targetted to where they can be most effective. Thumbs up for the Gardai.

Roger_007

Almaviva wrote: »

Its a regular spot for them. And a good one - target rich. Their aim is to catch speeders, and they should be commended for once, for setting up where they can be most productive. There simply arent enough resources to properly enforce correct driving, so it must be targetted to where they can be most effective. Thumbs up for the Gardai.

What a crass point of view. What do you mean by 'most productive'. If you mean produce most revenue and make the stats look impressive you may be right. As a contribution to road safety it is a complete waste of time and resources. If you think that this is how the Gardaí should be spending their time, you must be either a Garda or someone who thinks that the letter of the law is more important than what is the intention of the law, i.e. road safety.

NuckingFacker

Roger_007 wrote: »

I was leaving Dublin airport today driving on the link road from the roundabout on the old N1 towards the roundabout on the M1. I noticed the Gardaí had set up a speed check near the latter roundabout. I am not sure what speed I was driving at but it was not very fast. I don't know if I will get a ticket for this but if I do, there should be dozens of others because everyone seemed to be driving at the same speed as me, i.e. a safe speed.
I mentioned this incident to a friend and he told me that there is a speed trap there every other day. If this is true, then I would consider this to be a very cynical exercise on the part of the Gardaí. They are supposed to concentrate their resources on known black spots. I don't think this road would be an accident black spot.
Have the Gardaí gone back to 'shooting fish in a barrel' again? It is difficult to have respect for them when they operate a 'gotcha' policy.

Been through speed-traps at this point several times - the limit is a feckin un-do-able 50 - I always shake my head when I see them there- it's a dopey limit and a dopey spot - pure revenue raising, like every other speed trap, every where.

Almaviva

Roger_007 wrote: »

What do you mean by 'most productive'.

Catch as many people as possible. Points on the licence slow people down on all roads.

Roger_007

Almaviva wrote: »

Catch as many people as possible. Points on the licence slow people down on all roads.

If you are a driver ask yourself two questions:
1. Have you ever exceeded any speed limit even marginally,
2. If you have, do you think you deserve a fine and penalty points for each time you have done.

Most, if not all, drivers will marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis because it is a near-impossibility not to do so. It does not mean they are reckless or dangerous but by your logic they should all be off the road.

Almaviva

Roger_007 wrote: »

If you are a driver ask yourself two questions:
1. Have you ever exceeded any speed limit even marginally,
2. If you have, do you think you deserve a fine and penalty points for each time you have done.

Most, if not all, drivers will marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis because it is a near-impossibility not to do so. It does not mean they are reckless or dangerous but by your logic they should all be off the road.

It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.

Roger_007

Almaviva wrote: »

It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.

Suppose all vehicles were, by law, fitted with a device which would, using GPS, record every time you exceeded any speed limit and transmitted that information automatically to the authorities. You would automatically be fined each time you did it and automatically banned from driving when you reached 12 points. Very soon most drivers would be off the road. Problem solved.

Almaviva

Roger_007 wrote: »

Suppose all vehicles were, by law, fitted with a device which would, using GPS, record every time you exceeded any speed limit and transmitted that information automatically to the authorities. You would automatically be fined each time you did it and automatically banned from driving when you reached 12 points. Very soon most drivers would be off the road. Problem solved.

No. They would drive within the specified limits. Its only getting away with it that has Irish drivers with such poor discipline.

Ever driven in Sweden ? Try their 30 and 50 zones and see that it can be done - and is expected by other road users.

HurtLocker

Almaviva wrote: »

It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.

So you have never broken a speed limit ever. If so did you turn yourself in and volunteer for penalty points and take the insurance hit? Only fair if you advocate fish in a barrel, and hidden cameras.

MugMugs

The limit is 60 and all it is is a big huge state cash cow.

Roger_007

Almaviva wrote: »

No. They would drive within the specified limits. Its only getting away with it that has Irish drivers with such poor discipline.

Ever driven in Sweden ? Try their 30 and 50 zones and see that it can be done - and is expected by other road users.

Everything is perfect in Sweden. We are only ordinary fallible humans

Spook_ie

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Yeah I know the spot, drivers from the airport and N1 are busy trying to cross each other to get in lane for North/Southbound M1 (without having to monitor speed as well). Absolute stupid place to have speedtraps.

Actually isn't that the idea. That junction has a lot of traffic changing lanes in a short distance therefore it needs a lower limit and a limit is to be enforced to ensure drivers stay within it

Iwannahurl

wil wrote: »

Now really I want to hurl.

Like I said: regurgitated guff.

wil wrote: »

Regulating speed by rules because some cant use common sense is fine, it whats we have to do. Misguidedly blaming everything on a single factor is as misguided as the flag carrier in front of the first vehicles, and is a dangerous practice. It excuses people to veer away from learning to drive as has been the way for decades and blindly, ignorantly and as we see here, so vehemently ignore all other real issues over a scapegoat one.
The training issue is only now slowly being resolved. but with these sort of attitudes, it is no wonder it is difficult for learners to know what is correct,

Man waving a flag blah blah blah.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61906455&postcount=22
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57768079&postcount=65
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64284631&postcount=110
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66345913&postcount=15

There's nobody I know who's seriously "blaming everything on a single factor". Speed is the most important factor to regulate, but it's not the only one.

As recurring Boards threads on the subject of speed illustrate, education and training for drivers can only do so much. That's why rigorous and persistent enforcement is needed: to change the behaviour of drivers that are too dumb or too stubborn to change their attitude.

Jimoslimos

Spook_ie wrote: »

Actually isn't that the idea. That junction has a lot of traffic changing lanes in a short distance therefore it needs a lower limit and a limit is to be enforced to ensure drivers stay within it

While that may be the idea it doesn't make it safer, as absurd as it might sound it is often safer to increase speed briefly to safely move into a gap rather than letting traffic undertake and then cut across on the left. Accidents occur not due to excessive speed but rather traffic travelling in close proximity and lane changing. Lower speed limits cause a concertina effect where traffic bunches up.

Failing a complete redesign of the junction, a safer (but expensive) solution would be to have lights between the two roundabouts allowing traffic from both the airport and N1/Coachman's Inn time to get in lane. But as always safety isn't the primary concern, revenue instead is.

Almaviva

Jimoslimos wrote: »

But as always safety isn't the primary concern, revenue instead is.

Where does such warped thinking come from

Grayditch

I got fined the first time I ever drove on that road. Now I slow down every time, but cars behind me lose the plot at me doing the speed limit there. It's a horrible section and it's really no fun to be aggressively tailed there.

Iwannahurl

wil wrote: »

Don't look for help if you are struggling to keep up with the lack of logic in your own arguments and please stop halfquoting me, my sentence didn't finish at "speed"

So, to repeat my question with the full quote included, in what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents"?

wil wrote: »

you listed a lot of road abuses, then blanket blamed speed, ignoring the list you just gave.

Nope, what I said was a lot of bad driving, such as that described in a previous post, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and that speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.

wil wrote: »

Accident rates are often high at police checkpoints because drivers get distracted from proper driving and start over checking speedometers etc, forgetting to use mirrors, rearending other cars etc.

You don't say! Maybe there are even more fatalities? Let's have some evidence please, for your claim regarding the increased incidence of accidents at police checkpoints.

wil wrote: »

Just wondering, as you might know, can you get speedometer for horses, or how do you know how fast you are travelling?

Maybe what's needed is an altimeter.

Cooper Zealous Sabotage wrote: »

Rubbish straw man argument.

Really? So what do you think the bit in red means then?

ScumLord wrote: »

It's pretty difficult to do an unsafe speed at that junction in traffic. Bar being around pedestrians unsafe would mean the car is at it's limits and can no longer do what you ask it to do. That's not going to happen until you're closer to or well past 100kph.

Cooper Zealous Sabotage wrote: »

You would want to be a bit simple to rely solely on your speedometer for driving at a safe speed.

You'd want to be a bit simple, or perhaps just a sh:te driver, to believe that checking your speedometer is not a useful way to keep your speed within legal and appropriate limits.

Cooper Zealous Sabotage wrote: »

Your entire argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that one cannot drive safely UNLESS he/she knows what speed he/she is doing. It's not possible to know this all of the time, so by your flawed logic, nobody can drive safely.

What was that you said about rubbish straw man arguments?

Cooper Zealous Sabotage wrote: »

Your argument is bullshít, simple as. It's not that difficult to píss all over it...

I'm sure you have no difficulty p:ssing all over things.

Almaviva wrote: »

Catch as many people as possible. Points on the licence slow people down on all roads.

Excellent point. Good to see someone clearly understanding and explaining the purpose of road traffic legislation and its enforcement.

As the points accumulate, and the chances of being caught again increase, the tendency is towards more compliant behaviour.

It's not a guarantee, however. A key part of such a strategy is rigorous, persistent and high-visibility enforcement. Still not enough of it, in my view.

wil

Almaviva wrote: »

It is perfectly possible to do so. But people choose not to because the probablilty of being caught is slim to none. Up the 'gotcha' rate, and attitudes will change and people will realise they can drive withing the limit.

All you end up with is revenue and hatred of police while targeting the generally law-abiding who will pay for the real culprits. People on unpoliced secondary roads will continue to die while much safer dual carriageways will be taxed. Police will be no more loved and respected than clampers.
Single issue scapegoating is a good example of the short sighted lobbying that brought USA from one of the safest driving countries to way down the league with almost three times the death rate of the safest today.

Citing Sweden is actually a good example against your argument. There similar to the UK, the most consistently safe driving country over decades, they adopt multiple strategies and encourage a good self awareness and self policing discipline among their driving population.

You want to change attitudes in a very complex scenario, it is childish to think addressing a single issue will change that. Its like thinking the plastic bag tax will stop all littering

Iwannahurl

Roger_007 wrote: »

If you are a driver ask yourself two questions:
1. Have you ever exceeded any speed limit even marginally,
2. If you have, do you think you deserve a fine and penalty points for each time you have done.

Most, if not all, drivers will marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis because it is a near-impossibility not to do so. It does not mean they are reckless or dangerous but by your logic they should all be off the road.

It is also a near-impossibility to carry out speed surveillance on most, if not all, drivers. Therefore the reality is that most, if not all, drivers will never be penalised even if they marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis. The effect -- certainly the intent -- of enforcement is to increase compliance with speed limits and therefore keep average speed down. Inconsistent and sporadic enforcement was the norm in this country for a long time, and there is still not enough of it, with the result that many motorists habitually exceed the posted speed limit more than marginally. Speeding will probably never be eradicated, but it can be controlled better.

Almaviva wrote: »

Where does such warped thinking come from

It's standard self-serving justification for speeding the world over, I reckon. Hell hath no fury like a motorist nabbed by a speed camera. With the dishonourable exception of being clamped, of course.

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Accidents occur not due to excessive speed but rather traffic travelling in close proximity and lane changing. Lower speed limits cause a concertina effect where traffic bunches up.

Are you saying that, in situations where a lot of lane-changing is required, traffic moving more slowly is (a) relatively more congested and (b) is therefore at higher risk of collision?

wil wrote: »

You want to change attitudes in a very complex scenario, it is childish to think addressing a single issue will change that. Its like thinking the plastic bag tax will stop all littering

The plastic bag levy massively decreased the use of disposable plastic bags, and by extension the proportion of plastic bags in litter and refuse.

Speed surveillance increases compliance with speed limits, and as a result tends to lower the average speed in areas where surveillance is regularly carried out, as well as having a 'halo' effect through the imposition of penalty points. The evidence is clear: because speed is the most important factor to regulate, speed cameras save lives. It's not the whole story in the area of road safety, but it is a crucial one.

wil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It is also a near-impossibility to carry out speed surveillance on most, if not all, drivers. Therefore the reality is that most, if not all, drivers will never be penalised even if they marginally exceed speed limits on a regular basis. The effect -- certainly the intent -- of enforcement is to increase compliance with speed limits and therefore keep average speed down. Inconsistent and sporadic enforcement was the norm in this country for a long time, and there is still not enough of it, with the result that many motorists habitually exceed the posted speed limit more than marginally. Speeding will probably never be eradicated, but it can be controlled better.

It's standard self-serving justification for speeding the world over, I reckon. Hell hath no fury like a motorist nabbed by a speed camera. With the dishonourable exception of being clamped, of course.

Your arguments are all over the place now and becoming quite self serving. You discount statistics from the world authorities on the subject. I can see no evidence that you have any extensive experience of driving in other countries or real knowledge of the difference in attitudes representative of consistently safe driving nations. Ireland is a relatively young driving nation with a fairly lax attitude to rules overall. It has improved, not through harsh policing, that's still fairly adhoc, but starting from the beginning - the learner. You don't realise what a joke other countries thought of our previous attitude to learning. Also introducing a more structured responsibility system brought us in to the modern world of driving.

Targetting a single issue, which is NOT even the main issue, despite you repeating ad nauseum shows little comprehension of the problems. I and others cited many, you've ignored them, same as you probably do on the road. You driving poorly but below the limits with that attitude wont make you a much safer driver. Maybe if you took an advanced driving course with some real ADIs you might realise there's a lot more to driving than "speed"

Actually there is a forum for this discussion, not sure why it's in AH

Dostoevsky

Anybody know how much the state is taking in from all these motoring penalty points and other non-penalty point charges such as fines for parking at a bus stop?

I hope it's getting all the money and not subcontracting the process out to some private firm as usually happens

Stabshauptmann

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Wait until they use the existing M50 cameras as average speed cameras

Or hook up the toll cameras to motortax.ie / insurance

Hands up, I speed. I will be the first to suffer from this. But I think its a good idea

Iwannahurl

wil wrote: »

You discount statistics from the world authorities on the subject.

... you've ignored them, same as you probably do on the road. You driving poorly but below the limits with that attitude wont make you a much safer driver.

I know this is AH and all, but what are you talking about?

What statistics? Which world authorities?

And what could you possibly know about my driving?

Still waiting for you to answer this question: in what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents"?

wil wrote: »

Having learned and driven on the most consistently safe roads in the world, I place more faith in their generations of much researched stats, and funnily enough they also don't place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents.

Stabshauptmann

Aineoil wrote: »

Something got lost in translation here, I charge you for my wealth of driving experience.

And as a co-driver, I will be in a position to remind you of the aforesaid cows and pedestrians.
Now, wait, I never mentioned the cyclists....

I can't believe I forgot cyclists

GArdai didn't. Gotcha operation in town earlier to nab cyclists breaking lights on

HurtLocker

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Hands up, I speed. I will be the first to suffer from this. But I think its a good idea

Motorways are the safest roads in the country. I think its less than 2% of accidents occur on them. Id agree with cameras on a series of dangerous bends but average times on motorways would be evil! I dont see how it could be introduced when the garda position on enforcement is " sections of roads where people have died". Effectively monitoring the safest roads the harshest wouldn't sit well with most people. The whole Dublin-Cork (M7) has no gatso camera locations after Naas (handy fact to know ) and if you sign up to @GardaCork itll tell you if there are hand guns in operation near the end of the motorway in Cork. Thats a huge strip with a safe history, monitoring it with average speed would be unfair on motorist. I know some people on here with zero tolerance opinions disagree :rolleyes: Whats new? If theyd their way they'd put GPS in every car and Id be off the road in a week :pac:

Most people also have no problem with reasonable speed enforcement. I and many people I know thought it was a joke how many guards set up speed traps in good weather. They should be out in the sh*t weather when driving conditions are sh*t not just in dry perfect condition roads and sunny weather. Id rather they focused on drink driving and learner drivers then. But currently a person with zero experience driving alone in icy conditions in commuter traffic is less off an offence than going 5km/h over the limit with a full licence on an empty motorway with perfect conditions

wil

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Anybody know how much the state is taking in from all these motoring penalty points and other non-penalty point charges such as fines for parking at a bus stop?

I hope it's getting all the money and not subcontracting the process out to some private firm as usually happens

A very valid question. I never saw any figures and any time I hear spokespersons citing the number of people caught for difference offences, my scepticism rises.
On any day, I could point out on one street, dozens of road safety offences, that are a risk to life, nothing to do with excess speed that are completely ignored by both drivers and police and yet most of them if enforced would also get you points on your licence.
This is where we differ significantly to our nearest neighbours. Even young people will pick up on each others driving transgressions and positively reinforce good driving. Its such a cultural shock to see it in action. Ireland has a way to go before that is more the norm. We tend to excuse and make excuses for poor driving and this reinforces some very bad habits on our roads.
It is possible to categorise types of problem drivers in the UK, but poor driving here tends to be scattered across all types. As inherently poor driving due to lack of training gradually reduces, then it may become easier to target specific problem areas.

As for parking in a bus stop, fines for this in Dublin anyway seem to be solely enforced by the clampers, a private company which is apparently losing money.

zenno

Ye can't win either way.

I fecking hate the idea of getting fined for going over the speed limit and luckily i haven't got a speeding ticket ever in the 6 years of driving as i always stick to the limit.

But in saying this, i have had cars/vans small trucks tailgate me very close behind and beep me like crazy because of this and they overtake me erratically and look at me shouting and swearing while they are not looking at the road in front of them and this is dangerous in a big way. It doesn't bother me too much though but what they are doing is very dangerous.

What i am saying is that the RSA think that having folks driving at a certain speed limit (of which would be too slow for a certain road) will cut down on accident's, but in reality it is causing accidents from people that go nuts with you when you stick to the speed limit, and there are many dangerous sh!ts out there.

Ray Palmer

Are all the drivers that are defending speeding also considering that cyclist breaking lights are not dangerous?
There are often discussions where people boil down what a cyclist does is either against the rules of the road or not and it is that simple. Safety of the issue is not the concern it is just about obeying the rules. Cars driving into Dublin and through the housing estates all speed. 30km speed limit is not observed. I certainly don't expect these drivers to be obeying the speed limit elsewhere. It isn't whether you speed it is about when you will be caught and complaining about that is a bit pathetic. Drive at or below the speed limit and it won't happen.

My understanding is that people who break the speed limit in one place will do it elsewhere too. So they catch people where it is easier to catch them rather than try to catch them on lesser used roads.

There is technology about that could be used but the public will get outraged. There was a massive outcry when they suggested checking tax discs via cameras. I think they even stopped the plans as a result.

danniemcq

Years ago on the way to Dublin with my Ma she started cursing that the garda car behind her wasn't overtaking her. I looked up and seen the lights flashing like crazy and asked how long it had been behind her.

Turns out we were involved in a fairly slow chase for about 5 minutes after she went through one of those "towns" that are 3 houses at a junction where the speed limit went from 60-30 for about 100m before going back up to 60.

She hadn't noticed the speed limit change, the garda or anything else and pissed the Garda off quite badly doing it! She got a fine but can't remember what it was (it was over 18 years ago) but i remember her being ragin!