Gardai operating 'gotcha' speed traps.

Turtwig

Roger_007 wrote: »

Many years of accident-free, (not even a prang), driving experience.

Just on this. If a person smokes from birth until 70 there's no guarantee they'll get any ill effects from the cigarettes. They can be very very lucky. Just because you haven't had an accident yet is a terrible way to justify you are safe driver. Likewise, just because you've had an accident wouldn't be necessarily be justification for you being a bad driver. Your behaviour and attitude on the road is what counts. You can only control your vehicle, you've no control over the the road conditions or the actions of other agents on the road.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you aren't a safe driver. Just saying fortune or circumstances often plays a bigger role on the road than drivers like to admit. 9/10 times a person will get away with an idiotic overtaking manoeuvre but it only takes just the once.

Aineoil

Roger_007 wrote: »

Good driving is about good judgement and awareness of what's going on around you.[/QUO

So true.
Observe, anticipate, and if there might be a problem think of how you'll get out of it in a safe way

Banjo String

Iwannahurl wrote: »

By your own admission you don't know what speed you were driving at.

How can you know that your unknown speed was a "safe" speed?

I saw several motors pulled in.

He wasn't (nor was I)

Probably safe to assume he wasn't speeding so.

Jester252

Roger_007 wrote: »

I don't know if you are a driver or not, but if you are and you cannot drive safely without looking at your speedometer all the time, then you should not be on the road. Good driving is about good judgement and awareness of what's going on around you.

You right good judgement and awareness make good drivers. I never said that you need to stare at the speedometer but you need to know your speed. A speedometer is something you can read in a second or less. They are designed to be read quickly. Under your definition of a good driver you not a good driver. Why? You don't have good awareness because you didn't know what speed you where at.

Aineoil

Hurtlocker,
I'm not on a high horse, maybe I am, sorry.
On an average day I drive for two hours plus, and it's not city driving.

I am shocked at what I see some days....not most days....but some days.

Iwannahurl

wil wrote: »

Good intentions but a little misguided and misinformed. At 50kph, which would mostly be in streets/built, you should be keeping your eyes on the road to watch out for kids, bikes, cars, busses, pedestrian crossings, signs etc. etc.

That moment you choose to check your speedo could be far more costly than €80. Estimated cost to put it in such horrific terms, to the state of a life is between one and 2 million euro.

And to continue the stark reality, speed cited as the cause of accidents resulting in death is between 10 and 20% over the last few decades, whereas being on the wrong side of the road is between 40 and 50%
Drink accounts for a good portion of the remaining.

Being on the wrong side of the road is a behaviour I see every day and endemic in Irish driving, so no surprise in the real statistics.

And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

This obsession with numbers on a speedo (which over-reads by as much as 10% anyway) is exactly what it wrong with Irish motorists really.

It's the same type that dawdle along on the N/M roads holding up a line of traffic because "it's a limit, not a target"

Like poor persecuted Mr 007 here I too don't worry too much about the speed limits. Most of them are nonsensical anyway and completely inappropriate for the stretch of roads they apply too (eg; country laneways with 80 km/h limits)

Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.

HurtLocker

Mattyy wrote: »

Just wondering what type of speed traps do they have

1. Mobile safety camera (automatic fine)

2. Laser/radar
(pulled over by them and fined)

3. Fixed location safety camera
(Automatic fine)

4. Traffic car
(must pull you over to issue fine)

Someone told me that a traffic car
Parked on the side of the road can
Issue you a fixed fine and penalty like the gatso van ... The info on various
Sites says they must pull you

Any views on this ?

There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.

HurtLocker

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.

Do you ever get bored of arguing on every single speed camera thread?

Mattyy

HurtLocker wrote: »

There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.

What's pacing ?

Roger_007

Jernal wrote: »

Just on this. If a person smokes from birth until 70 there's no guarantee they'll get any ill effects from the cigarettes. They can be very very lucky. Just because you haven't had an accident yet is a terrible way to justify you are safe driver. Likewise, just because you've had an accident wouldn't be necessarily be justification for you being a bad driver. Your behaviour and attitude on the road is what counts. You can only control your vehicle, you've no control over the the road conditions or the actions of other agents on the road.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you aren't a safe driver. Just saying fortune or circumstances often plays a bigger role on the road than drivers like to admit. 9/10 times a person will get away with an idiotic overtaking manoeuvre but it only takes just the once.

I take your point that you can be lucky but because my job involves a lot of driving I would estimate that I have driven over 1 million miles including driving in most European countries and in the US, I can claim some of my 'luck' must be due to good driving. I have never had a penalty point on my licence or any penalty for any traffic violation in any other country I've driven in. So I must be very, very lucky.

donegal_road

a relation of mine drives a hospital bus (as a volunteer) a couple of times a week. Some months ago he got a letter in the post from the speed van crowd, to say he had been doing 97kph in an 80kph zone, and that he was being fined whatever amount.

So he took the tachograph out of the bus and checked it to the time and date he was being accused of speeding, it turns out he was doing 82kph at the time.. and the tac doesn't lie. So he is going to take it as far as he can, radio shows, newspapers etc. also, the bus owner is refusing to pay it.

_Kaiser_

HurtLocker wrote: »

There are no fixed cameras in Ireland I think. The guards dont have to pull you over. The can issue the points to the address of the owner of the car like gastso by taking down your reg. They dont really do it though.

The guards use Mobile Speed Vans, Laser and pacing (driving their car the same speed as criminal :pac:) to catch people.

There are a few fixed cameras around the place alright (M1 outside Drogheda southbound springs to mind, also just up from Swords after the Topaz garage. There's ones (to be installed) on the M50 too at Blanch and Exit 12)

Unless they pull you in you'll probably be fine - unless it's a van or they have a camera on a tripod.

Mattyy

Mattyy wrote: »

What's pacing ?

Oh pacing I get you sorry I read it wrong you explained it in the same sentence thanks

Aineoil

See it from my point of view, and I am no law breaker.

I drive for 20/25 minutes at 100 km an hour.

I arrive on the's outskirts of a town, speed limit 60 km.
So I go from 100 to 60.

A very short space from the 60km to 50km.

100 to 60 is crazy. There are no houses or anything.

HurtLocker

Mattyy wrote: »

What's pacing ?

If they see a car they think is speeding they match the speed of their patrol car with the "offending ve-ha-cle". If the cars speedo is over the limit by too much (Garda's discretion) they pull the car and give out points.

Banjo String

donegal_road wrote: »

a relation of mine drives a hospital bus (as a volunteer) a couple of times a week. Some months ago he got a letter in the post from the speed van crowd, to say he had been doing 97kph in an 80kph zone, and that he was being fined whatever amount.

So he took the tachograph out of the bus and checked it to the time and date he was being accused of speeding, it turns out he was doing 82kph at the time.. and the tac doesn't lie. So he is going to take it as far as he can, radio shows, newspapers etc. also, the bus owner is refusing to pay it.

I got one a few weeks back to say I was doing 95 in an 80 zone in Dungarvin County Waterford.

problem. I've never been in Dungarvin in my life. I was also in Cookstown in County Tyrone that whole week on a work project.

currently appealing.

Iwannahurl

HurtLocker wrote: »

Do you ever get bored of arguing on every single speed camera thread?

It does get a bit boring from time to time because very few of the speed fans ever manage to come up with any arguments other than the usual regurgitated guff, mangled stats and assorted flummery.

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.

Not at all..

If you want to dawdle along at 10-20 km/h below the limit when it's perfectly safe and appropriate to do the limit, you are free to do so.. but NOT to hold up a line of cars behind you!

Move over and let them pass when possible (I'm not suggesting anyone should drive into a ditch either)

What you're describing above (bolded) is inconsiderate driving and without due care and attention.

Iwannahurl

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not at all..

If you want to dawdle along at 10-20 km/h below the limit when it's perfectly safe and appropriate to do the limit, you are free to do so.. but NOT to hold up a line of cars behind you!

Move over and let them pass when possible (I'm not suggesting anyone should drive into a ditch either)

What you're describing above (bolded) is inconsiderate driving and without due care and attention.

You keep returning to the specific topic of "dawdling" which suggests an obsession, to use your own term.

Turtwig

HurtLocker wrote: »

If they see a car they think is speeding they match the speed of their patrol car with the "offending ve-ha-cle". If the cars speedo is over the limit by too much (Garda's discretion) they pull the car and give out points.

I don't know about the individual guards. But I believe the machine detectors have to allow for a tolerance value of 10%. If your vehicle says you're going at 100km/hr the reality is you could going anywhere above or under that amount depending on the vehicle manufacturer's tolerance. Usually leeway is given so that if your car is clocked at 110km/hr in a 100km zone it's deemed acceptable. After all, the driver might not have known his speedometer is 10km/hr too slow. I'd expect the Guards pacing probably have to take into account something similar or have just been told some arbitrary figure like 12km/hr over the limit.

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

You keep returning to the specific topic of "dawdling" which suggests an obsession, to use your own term.

Driving a car isn't a right, it's a privilege - and there are many Irish drivers out there who frankly shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

- Poor awareness of what's going on around them
- Maneuvering without looking or indicating
- Poor lane discipline or the "I'm in the right" types on the motorway
- Phone glued to their ear as they drive along
- Doing 80 km/h on a 100 km/h wide stretch of road.. and continuing to do 80 as they reach the next town
- No/minimal lights in bad weather or at night

etc etc.. I could go on but we've all seen examples of this every day

And yes, if you are incapable or unwilling to drive at the posted limit where the surface, time of day and conditions (weather, traffic etc) allow for it AND by doing so you are impeding the progress of others then yes, you should get off the road!

It's probably a good thing we don't have autobahn's in Ireland with the behavior and attitudes above

Iwannahurl

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Driving a car isn't a right, it's a privilege - and there are many Irish drivers out there who frankly shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

- Poor awareness of what's going on around them
- Maneuvering without looking or indicating
- Poor lane discipline or the "I'm in the right" types on the motorway
- Phone glued to their ear as they drive along
- Doing 80 km/h on a 100 km/h wide stretch of road.. and continuing to do 80 as they reach the next town
- No/minimal lights in bad weather or at night

etc etc.. I could go on but we've all seen examples of this every day

Yes, you could go on:

Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
Dangerous overtaking
Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
Failing to yield at roundabouts
Driving on footpaths
Parking on footpaths

And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.

wil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And it goes on, including the misuse of limited statistics. It really is like the Motors forum...

Curious how the "safe" drivers posting in this thread doesn't seem to be able to concurrently check their speedometer occasionally to ensure that they're compliant with the speed limit, and keep an eye on the road. With this self-declared inability to multitask you'd have to wonder whether they should be allowed to drive more than a wheelbarrow.


Given how often you post on one of your favourite topics -- ie people who drive more slowly than you would like -- I think it's clear what the obsession is here.

and on and on

Having learned and driven on the most consistently safe roads in the world, I place more faith in their generations of much researched stats, and funnily enough they also don't place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents.

And I don't think anyone else interprets driving as being a number.
It is entirely relative and dependent on a dozen or more factors at any particular moment. Most people don't get upset if they cant put an exact figure on current speed without checking. But that doesn't mean not occasionally "multitasking":rolleyes: and checking as appropriate. Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.

I have a fair idea (sorry not perfect) of what speed I am doing relative to whats going on around me. That's what really matters when it comes to collisions. I just add that to the 924705kph I'm already doing.:rolleyes:

Given the obsession over figures, it would probably be better to concentrate more on the road than the speedometer, safer for all.

wil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Yes, you could go on:

Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
Dangerous overtaking
Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
Failing to yield at roundabouts
Driving on footpaths
Parking on footpaths

And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.

So ignore the list you just put. Oh gawd!!!

You just arrived in from the 19th century?

_Kaiser_

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Yes, you could go on:

Disrespecting 30 km/h zones (the few we have in this country)
Driving well above the limit in 50 km/h urban zones
Dangerous overtaking
Failing to stop at zebra crossings and traffic signals
Failing to yield at roundabouts
Driving on footpaths
Parking on footpaths

And so on. The facts remain: (1) a lot of bad driving, such as what you describe above, is made a lot worse by excess speed, and (2) speed is the most important risk factor to be regulated.

I actually completely agree with almost everything you've said there.

However, it's not "speed" or even "excess speed" that causes the danger.. it's INAPPROPRIATE speed that causes the issues!

Example: 5-10 km/h over a 50 km/h limit in a built-up area or outside a school IS indeed a danger and inappropriate and completely unacceptable... however, the same 5-10 km/h over on a deserted motorway is no risk to anyone*

(* = obviously assuming the car/tyres etc are in good working order and so on)

Iwannahurl

wil wrote: »

Having learned and driven on the most consistently safe roads in the world, I place more faith in their generations of much researched stats, and funnily enough they also don't place so much uninformed emphasis on speed as the cause of accidents.

[...]

Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.

In what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed"?

Who said anything about 'stopping to monotask'? If you can't check your speedometer occasionally while driving then I have to wonder about your ability to multi-task, driving being an everyday example of multi-tasking.

wil wrote: »

So ignore the list you just put. Oh gawd!!!

You just arrived in from the 19th century?

Yeh wha?

ratracer

Jernal wrote: »

I never quite understand this whole idea of hidden speed traps. Great, you've caught the person for speeding but usually a lot of drivers never ever see the speed trap to begin with. A more effective way to slow people down would be to have the speed check highly visible. Yeah, you'd probably catch a lot less people because they'd be tipped off but you'd slow them down - not have them speeding, possibly dangerously, then catch them and drop them a fine.

I think it'd be worth our while implicating the Russian Inflatable tank manouevre. Place several inflatable speed camera vans on each road in the country. People wouldn't really be able to tell which is the real van and so they'd have a very strong compulsion to slow down. No guarantee that they would as the thing about folks who break the laws is that they don't anticipate they'll ever get caught.

I'm all for improving road safety but the way road deaths from year to year are used and compared to say to speed traps and the like are working is farcical. One year? There's tonnes of other reasons why deaths on the road may vary.

Like this: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0630/105165-roads/

Iwannahurl

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I actually completely agree with almost everything you've said there.

However, it's not "speed" or even "excess speed" that causes the danger.. it's INAPPROPRIATE speed that causes the issues!

Example: 5-10 km/h over a 50 km/h limit in a built-up area or outside a school IS indeed a danger and inappropriate and completely unacceptable... however, the same 5-10 km/h over on a deserted motorway is no risk to anyone*

(* = obviously assuming the car/tyres etc are in good working order and so on)

Both examples are of excess speed. The key issue is risk. In all cases higher speed means higher risk, but the risk profile is different in different situations. There's nothing remarkable about that. It's why the speed limit is four times higher on the M6 than it is in the centre of Dublin, for example.

wil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It does get a bit boring from time to time because very few of the speed fans ever manage to come up with any arguments other than the usual regurgitated guff, mangled stats and assorted flummery.

Now really I want to hurl.
I am very far from a speed fan but yet I see how uninformed wannabe dogooders cant see the wood for the cheese.

Regulating speed by rules because some cant use common sense is fine, it whats we have to do. Misguidedly blaming everything on a single factor is as misguided as the flag carrier in front of the first vehicles, and is a dangerous practice. It excuses people to veer away from learning to drive as has been the way for decades and blindly, ignorantly and as we see here, so vehemently ignore all other real issues over a scapegoat one.
The training issue is only now slowly being resolved. but with these sort of attitudes, it is no wonder it is difficult for learners to know what is correct,

wil

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In what country or countries do they not "place so much uninformed emphasis on speed"?

Who said anything about 'stopping to monotask'? If you can't check your speedometer occasionally while driving then I have to wonder about your ability to multi-task, driving being an everyday example of multi-tasking.






Yeh wha?

Don't look for help if you are struggling to keep up with the lack of logic in your own arguments and please stop halfquoting me, my sentence didn't finish at "speed"
Just this once, - you listed a lot of road abuses, then blanket blamed speed, ignoring the list you just gave. Actually that's pretty much what I said last time.

I said about stopping to monotask, look

wil wrote:

Driving is probably as multitasking as you can get. It's when you stop to monotask, you get problems.

And its very relevant.
It explains why drink, tiredness, mobile phone usage and other distractions are high risk factors. Accident rates are often high at police checkpoints because drivers get distracted from proper driving and start over checking speedometers etc, forgetting to use mirrors, rearending other cars etc. Similar in rubbernecking, all the concentration goes in to one novel activity and all coordinated multitasking goes on hold. Alcohol and sleepiness impair multitasking abilities, as evidenced for evidence in sobriety tests.

Just wondering, as you might know, can you get speedometer for horses, or how do you know how fast you are travelling?