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Gerry Adams repeats himself again. But

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124

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    #92
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Prove it wrong. Use links. Check out the charter if you're confused about how to debate effectively.

    Perhaps you should look to your own house before referring anyone to the charter?

    The significance of Republican's rejection of Sunningdale wasn't lost on anyone at the time, and still isn't. Hiding under the pretence that SF were a 'non-entity' at the time because they wouldn't engage with the ballot box, is complete revisionism.


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    #93
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    alastair wrote: »
    Hiding under the pretence that SF were a 'non-entity' at the time because they wouldn't engage with the ballot box, is complete revisionism.

    Sure thing. It's like blaming SF for scuttling a ship they weren't even on.

    Brilliant use of logic.
    The Ulster Unionists formed the United Ulster Unionist Council (UUUC) as a coalition of anti-agreement unionists with the Vanguard Progressive Unionist Party* and the Democratic Unionist Party** to stand a single anti-Sunningdale candidate in each constituency. The pro-Sunningdale parties, the SDLP, the Alliance, the Northern Ireland Labour Party and the "Pro Assembly Unionists" made up of Faulkner's supporters, were disunited and ran candidates against one another. When the results were declared, the UUUC had captured eleven of the twelve constituencies, several of which had been won on split votes. Only West Belfast returned a pro-Sunningdale MP (Gerry Fitt). The UUUC declared that this represented a democratic rejection of the Sunningdale Assembly and Executive, and sought to bring them down by any means possible.

    Wiki

    You'll not there is no mention of SF there.


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    #94
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Sure thing. It's like blaming SF for scuttling a ship they weren't even on.

    Brilliant use of logic.

    I think you're confused as to the logic at play here. If SF/IRA/INLA/IRSP actively opposed the Sunningdale formula as a resolution to power sharing (as they did), then it's pretty disingenuous to pretend that the only mechanism for scuttling that particular ship was from within. The UWC & UAC weren't inside that ship either, let's not forget.


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    #95
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    You'll not there is no mention of SF there.

    I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe they were a member of the UUUC. I don't have a link to support this though.


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    #96
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    alastair wrote: »
    If SF/IRA/INLA/IRSP actively opposed the Sunningdale formula

    You just slid down a snake back to square one. SF/IRA/INLA/IRSP were politically insignificant at the time.

    If the SA had not been scuttled by Unionists it's quite possible the PIRA would have ran out of any support it had garnered from Unionist/Loyalist/British terrorism against Catholics/Nationalists.


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    #97
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    You just slid down a snake back to square one. SF/IRA/INLA/IRSP were politically insignificant at the time.

    As were the UWC - but then, that would highlight the nonsense of pretending that extra-political activity had nothing to do with the rejection/fall of Sunningdale.


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    #98
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    alastair wrote: »
    As were the UWC - but then, that would highlight the nonsense of pretending that extra-political activity had nothing to do with the rejection/fall of Sunningdale.

    The IRSP/INLA didnt exist at the time and the Provos and the UWC where anything but insignificant politically.


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    #99
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    alastair wrote: »
    As were the UWC - but then, that would highlight the nonsense of pretending that extra-political activity had nothing to do with the rejection/fall of Sunningdale.
    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Unionists brought down Sunningdale. The loyalist thugs 'policing' the strike were allowed to do so by the RUC militia and British state.

    But hey, don't let reality assert itself in your fantasy world where everyone is equally to blame.
    .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc


    I'm out of here.


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    #100
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    As were the UWC - but then, that would highlight the nonsense of pretending that extra-political activity had nothing to do with the rejection/fall of Sunningdale.
    How - specifically - do you say that the IRA were responsible for bringing down Sunningdale?

    Can you be specific?

    You realize that your suggestion is at odds with...say... history books?


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    #101
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Norwesterner wrote: »
    Well I was going to say SF-IRA but that would've been offensive too I'm sure.

    The Provisional Movement rejected Stormont.
    OK

    Yeah, but they didn't cause its failure. It was the UWC strike. There always would have been unionist disention, but if they had been handled better it might have succeeded, regardless of Republican opposition.

    Although there were many "what ifs" before then that could have saved many many lives.


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    #102
    Richard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    alastair wrote: »
    As were the UWC - but then, that would highlight the nonsense of pretending that extra-political activity had nothing to do with the rejection/fall of Sunningdale.

    Loyalists had more power to do things, e.g. close the power plants. Their actions had a significant impact. Republicans had an impact as well, but it was primarily the loyalists on this occasion.


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    #103
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    How - specifically - do you say that the IRA were responsible for bringing down Sunningdale?

    Can you be specific?

    You realize that your suggestion is at odds with...say... history books?

    The IRA made clear they had no interest in Sunningdale as a solution, and continued to murder people. Which rather undermined the value of the agreement, wouldn't you say? Do you think the GFA would have stood any chance of succeeding if the IRA had continued a policy of murder? It's all very convenient to pin the blame of pulling down Sunningdale 100% on dissenting loyalists, but Republicanism was right in there undermining any chance it had of succeeding - a touchy point for SF admittedly, given where they arrived back to 25 years later.


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    #104
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    The IRA made clear they had no interest in Sunningdale as a solution, and continued to murder people. Which rather undermined the value of the agreement, wouldn't you say?
    No, can you be specific?

    My guess is that you made your original statement without being fully cognisant of the history of the Sunningdale Agreement and are now foolishly attempting to stand by your original point. We both know where this is going. It can't be comfortable for you to look blankly at the history websites you are no doubt frantically seeking out.

    The IRA and Sinn Féin were not parties to Sunningdale. Republicanism was represented by the SDLP delegation. No conditionality was contained in the communiqué agreed between the delegations as related to ongoing hostilities. In fact, the communiqé was never fully realized at all. It was brought down through aggressive electoral tactics and harmful workers' strikes; the idea of North - South relations as envisaged in Sunningdale was simply un-popular. It was a prima facie affront to Unionism.

    Are you aware of any specific authority which would help your argument, or rip the pages from everyone else's history books?


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    #105
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    No, can you be specific?

    I've been quite specific. What point escapes you?


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    #106
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    The IRA and Sinn Féin were not parties to Sunningdale.

    Just as the UDA and the UWC were not. So?


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    #107
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    I've been quite specific. What point escapes you?
    A specific authority establishing a positive link, please.
    alastair wrote: »
    Just as the UDA and the UWC were not. So?
    Unlike SF and the IRA, who kept doing what they were doing (in the absence of conditionality to that effect, mind you), the UDA and UWC organized and aggressively campaigned to bring down Sunningdale. Sunningdale was antithetical to Unionism.

    You have to establish a positive link, alastair. You're not doing a very good job.

    Got that link?

    Go on, google like mad.


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    #108
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    A specific authority establishing a positive link, please.

    Unlike SF and the IRA, who kept doing what they were doing (in the absence of conditionality to that effect, mind you), the UDA and UWC organized and aggressively campaigned to bring down Sunningdale. Sunningdale was antithetical to Unionism.

    You have to establish a positive link, alastair. You're not doing a very good job.

    Got that link?

    Go on, google like mad.

    I've not noticed any contradictory evidence to the clear points I've made tbh.
    SF/IRA were opposed to Sunningdale - just as the UDA was. They boycotted the elections and targeted those from the Catholic community that did participate. They undermined any prospect for the success of power sharing by continuing their campaign of murder and intimidation. If you insist on focussing on the UWC strike alone, then you're employing some pretty selective blinkers - a strategy made clear by all this guff about the irrelevance of SF/IRA and how they were 'outside the ship' - a fairly self-evident state of affairs, and an 'irrelevance' that seemingly doesn't apply to the UWC - who were a wet day old.


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    #109
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    I've not noticed any contradictory evidence to the clear points I've made tbh.
    SF/IRA were opposed to Sunningdale - just as the UDA was. They boycotted the elections and targeted those from the Catholic community that did participate. They undermined any prospect for the success of power sharing by continuing their campaign of murder and intimidation. If you insist on focussing on the UWC strike alone, then you're employing some pretty selective blinkers - a strategy made clear by all this guff about the irrelevance of SF/IRA and how they were 'outside the ship' - a fairly self-evident state of affairs, and an 'irrelevance' that seemingly doesn't apply to the UWC - who were a wet day old.
    Alastair Alastair Alastair.

    Come on now, focus alastair. Show us an authority that agrees with you, and offers a treatise of why Sinn-Féin or the IRA had responsibility for bringing down Sunningdale? I want to emphasise one clanger.
    alastair wrote: »
    I've not noticed any contradictory evidence
    Are you asking people to prove a negative? Prove that Sinn Féin didn't bring down Sunningdale?

    Dear oh dear.

    Come on Alastair, show us your evidence. I'd love to read even a few paragraphs of the mysterious texts you must have consulted.


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    #110
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Alastair Alastair Alastair.

    Come on now, focus alastair. Show us an authority that agrees with you, and offers a treatise of why Sinn-Féin or the IRA had responsibility for bringing down Sunningdale? I want to emphasise one clanger.

    Are you asking people to prove a negative? Prove that Sinn Féin didn't bring down Sunningdale?

    Dear oh dear.

    Come on Alastair, show us your evidence. I'd love to read even a few paragraphs of the mysterious texts you must have consulted.

    Knock yourself out - the facts I've presented stand on their own merits. I've not noticed you backing up your particular viewpoint with any of these mysterious texts either. Just saying.


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    #111
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    Knock yourself out - the facts I've presented stand on their own merits. I've not noticed you backing up your particular viewpoint with any of these mysterious texts either. Just saying.
    That's because you can't reasonably expect people to prove a negative. Russell's Teapot. The opinion you are stating is at complete variance with history books; you have a burden of proof to meet.

    All I want is some specific link setting out why and how Sinn Féin and the IRA had any substantive responsibility for bringing down Sunningdale.

    Just a couple of paragraphs alastair. A short link. My request is simple.

    You seem so vehement... you can't just be making it up, surely?

    Surely?


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    #112
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That's because you can't reasonably expect people to prove a negative.

    I was actually referring to evidence supporting your contention. No teapots required.


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    #113
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    You seem so vehement...

    The vehemence relates to the wasted 25 years your mates with their 'extra-political' campaign, along with the other crowd, brought about through opposing the Sunningdale formula. Dealing with the consequences of that violence tends to focus the mind.


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    #114
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Lets keep trying. I think it's important not to let the accusation go.

    My contention is Sinn Féin and the IRA didn't bring down Sunningdale. It's a negative assertion, implied by an absence of any known historical account of their responsibility. You're therefore asking me to prove a negative.

    All I've asked for is a treatise of Sinn Féin and the IRA's responsibility for Sunningdale.

    People reading this thread can decide if you have evidence. Or they will decide if you made an error and are now trying to save face.


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    #115
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    All I've asked for is a treatise of Sinn Féin and the IRA's responsibility for Sunningdale.

    You've been given it repeatedly. You seem to keep forgetting my repeated reference to the role of anti-democratic loyalists though. Strange that.
    It was brought down by the combined antics of anti-democratic republicans and loyalists. The slow learners spent another 25 years engaged in atrocities before returning to the same basic arrangement that the democratic parties had set up in '73.


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    #116
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    You've been given it repeatedly
    Where? I must have missed that link.

    So far, there has been no link to a review of Sinn Féin's/ the IRA's role in bringing down Sunningdale.



    There isn't one, is there, alastair.


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    #117
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Where? I must have missed that link.

    So far, there has been no link to a review of Sinn Féin's/ the IRA's role in bringing down Sunningdale.



    There isn't one, is there, alastair.

    No link (same as yourself), but a perfectly clear treatise. Feel free to review.


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    #118
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    alastair wrote: »
    No link
    I see.

    And given the importance of Sunningdale in Irish history, why do you suppose nobody would ever have written any account or discussion of what you say in relation to Sinn Féin or the IRA?

    Would it be because it sounds made-up?


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    #119
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I see.

    And given the importance of Sunningdale in Irish history, why do you suppose nobody would ever have written any account or discussion of what you say in relation to Sinn Féin or the IRA?

    I'm not supposing anything. I note you are though.

    I've limited myself to the facts. If you've a problem of a factual nature - feel free to highlight it.


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    #120
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    I will indeed. You're just prolonging the public airing of your own ignorance on this matter:
    alastair wrote: »
    reality of Sunningdale - it was brought down by anti-democratic republicans and loyalists
    alastair wrote: »
    It was brought down by the combined antics of anti-democratic republicans and loyalists.
    alastair wrote: »
    it was brought down by anti-democratic republicans and loyalists.
    Show us any historical account of republicans' role in bringing down Sunningdale. You said you have "no link".

    Can you think of any reason why your googling has come to nothing?

    There is plenty written about Sunningdale. But why do the historical reviews focus on discussing the Unionist delegation and Unionist workers? Why are you having such a hard time coming up with any historical account of the republicans' blame in bringing down Sunningdale? Any idea?


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    #121
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I will indeed. You're just prolonging the public airing of your own ignorance on this matter:



    Show us any historical account of republicans' role in bringing down Sunningdale. You said you have "no link".

    Can you think of any reason why your googling has come to nothing?

    There is plenty written about Sunningdale. But why do the historical reviews focus on discussing the Unionist delegation and Unionist workers? Why are you having such a hard time coming up with any historical account of the republicans' blame in bringing down Sunningdale? Any idea?

    Again - you've failed to undermine any of the facts I've presented. Maybe you could entertain your obsession with 'links' to do so - if you can?

    25 years of murder and intimidation - only to return to the same formula - sad really.


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