Manning found guilty in 20 of 21 charges

bumper234

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

It's really very simple. Unlike Snowden or Manning, the government gets to choose who and for what it's military personnel is prosecuted for.

As I said right and wrong have nothing to do with it. The US government have and will do as they please to further their own interests. No one ever said this is fair, but that's simply how the world works. To think otherwise is naive at best.

I've neither agreed or disagreed with Manning, simple fact is he is going away for the rest of his life regardless or whether you agree with his actions or not.

And this is what makes the United States Government the biggest terrorist organization in the world.

StinkyMunkey

bumper234 wrote: »

And this is what makes the United States Government the biggest terrorist organization in the world.

The US government will always have its own agenda regardless of how anyone feels about it.

That being said I'd rather live in the states than Iraq. That's simply a choice of self preservation.

opinionated3

Drakares wrote: »

Land of the Free. This is one of many many reasons I wouldn't go on holidays to the States. Kip.

Go on hols to Pakistan or North Korea so. Great spots.

bumper234

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

The US government will always have its own agenda regardless of how anyone feels about it.

That being said I'd rather live in the states than Iraq. That's simply a choice of self preservation.

Of course you would it's better to be the bully than the victim right?

StinkyMunkey

bumper234 wrote: »

Of course you would it's better to be the bully than the victim right?

So me not wanting to bring my family to a war zone makes me a bully - ok.....!

So I'm guessing your packing for Iraq as we speak? Or are you just saying everyone should live their lives to suit your sense or morality.....

I'm honest, for me it's about the preservation of me and my family. I'm not really one of these people who give out about everyone and their mother while I sit in my comfy home with all the luxuries that those poor bastards in the likes of Iraq don't have.

hatrickpatrick

Both Manning and Snowden are heros to the concept of democracy.
We can't have a democratic election if we don't know all of the government's policies. It's one thing to classify methods and specifics, as Glenn Greenwald has done before publishing Snowden's leaks, but to have classified policies, such as today's revelation that literally everything we do on the internet is being recorded and warehoused by the NSA for at least the last seven years, is scandalous. You can't have democratic accountability if you don't even know what policies your government is pursuing.
In Manning's case, the two videos he leaked? Why were they being kept classified? To protect operational secrets? No, to protect America's public image. If you want to protect your public image, don't do bad things, or else hold people accountable for them when you do. Covering them up is completely and totally inexcusable in every sense of the word.

Either you're a democracy or you hide your policies from the people. One or the other. Make up your mind.

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Both Manning and Snowden are heros to the concept of democracy.
We can't have a democratic election if we don't know all of the government's policies. It's one thing to classify methods and specifics, as Glenn Greenwald has done before publishing Snowden's leaks, but to have classified policies, such as today's revelation that literally everything we do on the internet is being recorded and warehoused by the NSA for at least the last seven years, is scandalous. You can't have democratic accountability if you don't even know what policies your government is pursuing.
In Manning's case, the two videos he leaked? Why were they being kept classified? To protect operational secrets? No, to protect America's public image. If you want to protect your public image, don't do bad things, or else hold people accountable for them when you do. Covering them up is completely and totally inexcusable in every sense of the word.

Either you're a democracy or you hide your policies from the people. One or the other. Make up your mind.

Or in reality it's a country with many more times the sensitive information, secrets and responsibility the average company has.

I've yet to see a company ever pull full transparency.

So no, it's not one or the other. It's a compromise of the two.

bumper234

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

So me not wanting to bring my family to a war zone makes me a bully - ok.....!

So I'm guessing your packing for Iraq as we speak? Or are you just saying everyone should live their lives to suit your sense or morality.....

I'm honest, for me it's about the preservation of me and my family. I'm not really one of these people who give out about everyone and their mother while I sit in my comfy home with all the luxuries that those poor bastards in the likes of Iraq don't have.

Wouldn't expect you to go there and as for me? I was there in 91 so no thanks. What you should be doing is asking your government representative why your country can claim to be fighting terrorism but commit terrorist acts every day of the week.

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

Or in reality it's a country with many more times the sensitive information, secrets and responsibility the average company has.

I've yet to see a company ever pull full transparency.

So no, it's not one or the other. It's a compromise of the two.

I never said full transparency, I said fully transparent policy. Hence why I approve of Greenwald redacting specific methods and targets from the NSA documents and Wikileaks redacting source names from Manning's documents.

StinkyMunkey

bumper234 wrote: »

Wouldn't expect you to go there and as for me? I was there in 91 so no thanks. What you should be doing is asking your government representative why your country can claim to be fighting terrorism but commit terrorist acts every day of the week.

Only problem is I'm Irish and live in Ireland. I said I'd prefer the states to Iraq, not that I live in the states.

At no point have I condoned the actions of the US government, just pointed out the facts as they stand - Manning is going away for a very long time.

No doubt there'll be a "These things happen, we're sorry" response, and it'll swept under a ceiling busting rug.

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-nato-police-kill-908/

bumper234

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No doubt there'll be a "These things happen, we're sorry" response, and it'll swept under a ceiling busting rug.

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-nato-police-kill-908/

Families will be paid off and nothing else will be said. American people only care when Americans get blown to bits not brown people on the other side of the world.

Zebra3

Jonny7 wrote: »

Announcing "we declare war" wouldn't have made a lick of difference to the situation in Iraq.

It was a pre-emptive war. Emphasis on the word war. Also deeply unpopular across the world and turned into a quagmire.

Do you even know what that phrase means?

You're claiming that Iraq was preparing to attack the United States? :rolleyes:

Jonny7

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you even know what that phrase means?

It was a pre-emptive war

The US "pre-emptively" attacked Iraq based on false and exaggerated intelligence.

You're claiming that Iraq was preparing to attack the United States? :rolleyes:

Nope

Ulsteryank

joe swanson wrote: »

Justice. He broke the law and now will face the consequences. He knew the risks of his actions.

True, regardless of whether he believes what he did was right or wrong, coming from a former U.S Marine myself, there's a lot of things I didn't agree with and thought was bullsh*t, but we all swore serious oaths and gave our asses to Uncle Sam. Doing what he did while enlisted gets you exactly where he is. If he believes his actions are worth what he's paying for now....then fair play, but anyone would have expected what he's getting.

bumper234

Ulsteryank wrote: »

True, regardless of whether he believes what he did was right or wrong, coming from a former U.S Marine myself, there's a lot of things I didn't agree with and thought was bullsh*t, but we all swore serious oaths and gave our asses to Uncle Sam. Doing what he did while enlisted gets you exactly where he is. If he believes his actions are worth what he's paying for now....then fair play, but anyone would have expected what he's getting.

Would you have or have you covered up murders? Do you think those murders should not have been leaked?

Ulsteryank

bumper234 wrote: »

Would you have or have you covered up murders? Do you think those murders should not have been leaked?

I don't ideally think it would be right to cover up murders, but I was only an enlisted NCO that did my 4 year stint after school and left the Marines not looking back. As a Corporal in a Rifle company all we were expected to do was follow orders, so would just have to assume the higher ups have their reasons as to what they choose to disclose or not....

I remember when the "Iraq War Logs," were leaked a watched a special on Disclosures I think, and was surprised to see one that involved my unit. It dealt with a van of civilians that were trying to flee the country after we took the Palace. After hearing on the radio that our Sister company was attacked by a suicide bomber, this van jumped through 2 of our roads blocks speeding toward us, ignoring my PLT SGT's warning shots before it had to be engaged. That incident has been published in a book called "Road to Baghdad," and featured in a documentary about us called, "Make Peace or Die:The First Days of War in Iraq with the 1st Battalion 5th Marines." However unfortunate, I wouldn't call it 'murder.' Things happen in combat that civilians wouldn't understand. Even though incidents like that aren't widely broadcasted that incident at least wasn't 'secret,' or covered up, so I don't know why Manning ruined his life releasing some material(that one being 7 years old at the time I saw it supposedly "leaked") that anyone could find if they went looking for it.....I know some of the other leaks or more disturbing and unjustified, and I personally don't believe covering them up is right, but again being where I've been and knowing a world different to the one I'm living in now(even though being a barman in West Belfast is dodgy at times :P ) I don't think it's right to be 'Brutally Honest,' either. Yes I think the world has a right to know what's factually happening, but there's a lot of grey area involved as well.

bumper234

Interesting read


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/bradley-manning-verdict/

As of today, more than 4,000 civilian deaths have been added to the IBC database derived exclusively from these records, and roughly 10,000 more are likely to be added as the work continues.


IBC has produced a list of thousands of incidents in the Iraq war between 2004-09, killing several thousand Iraqi civilians that have now been sourced exclusively from the documents released by Bradley Manning, and who would otherwise have remained hidden to the world at large:

Christ the Redeemer

bumper234 wrote: »

Interesting read


http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/bradley-manning-verdict/

As of today, more than 4,000 civilian deaths have been added to the IBC database derived exclusively from these records, and roughly 10,000 more are likely to be added as the work continues.


IBC has produced a list of thousands of incidents in the Iraq war between 2004-09, killing several thousand Iraqi civilians that have now been sourced exclusively from the documents released by Bradley Manning, and who would otherwise have remained hidden to the world at large:

They are Iraqis, though. Americans have no problem drawing a line between themselves and the rest of the planet. Case in point, the **** storm after they killed Anwar al-Aulaqi, an American citizen turned Jihadi. Proven traitor terrorist but OMG... you can't just kill US citizens like we can those brown assholes in the middle east!

bumper234

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

They are Iraqis, though. Americans have no problem drawing a line between themselves and the rest of the planet. Case in point, the **** storm after they killed Anwar al-Aulaqi, an American citizen turned Jihadi. Proven traitor terrorist but OMG... you can't just kill US citizens like we can those brown assholes in the middle east!

The thing is though no one would have even KNOWN about these deaths if Manning hadn't leaked the documents. THIS is what the American government is afraid of people seeing.

Christ the Redeemer

bumper234 wrote: »

The thing is though no one would have even KNOWN about these deaths if Manning hadn't leaked the documents. THIS is what the American government is afraid of people seeing.

Americans by and large don't give a ****. They will obviously have a few that do and human rights organisations ect.

As long as they get their cheap petrol and obscenely large breakfasts, TV, internet and can puff out their chests about 'Murica being the greatest nation on earth, they will happily ignore the suffering caused by their out of control "defence" industry.

It's a sad thing. I really did once think that the democrats were the sane opposition to a warmongering Republican party. Fool me once.

Amirani

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Americans by and large don't give a ****. They will obviously have a few that do and human rights organisations ect.

As long as they get their cheap petrol and obscenely large breakfasts, TV, internet and can puff out their chests about 'Murica being the greatest nation on earth, they will happily ignore the suffering caused by their out of control "defence" industry.

It's a sad thing. I really did once think that the democrats were the sane opposition to a warmongering Republican party. Fool me once.

Yep, I think most Europeans would be surprised to see the apathy and lack of reaction amongst most Americans to the Manning case. The majority of them don't give a ****.

bumper234

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Americans by and large don't give a ****. They will obviously have a few that do and human rights organisations ect.

As long as they get their cheap petrol and obscenely large breakfasts, TV, internet and can puff out their chests about 'Murica being the greatest nation on earth, they will happily ignore the suffering caused by their out of control "defence" industry.

It's a sad thing. I really did once think that the democrats were the sane opposition to a warmongering Republican party. Fool me once.

Yup.

sickening to think that thousands of innocent people have died just because Bush junior wanted to get Saddam out to appease his idiot Fathers ego.

Christ the Redeemer

NiallSparky wrote: »

Yep, I think most Europeans would be surprised to see the apathy and lack of reaction amongst most Americans to the Manning case. The majority of them don't give a ****.

Most liberals I know are happily calling for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, some were drooling about the death penalty.

bumper234

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Most liberals I know are happily calling for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, some were drooling about the death penalty.

And then Americans i know get apoplectic when Europeans say "Meh" when 3 people died in the Boston bombings.

Ulsteryank

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

They are Iraqis, though. Americans have no problem drawing a line between themselves and the rest of the planet. Case in point, the **** storm after they killed Anwar al-Aulaqi, an American citizen turned Jihadi. Proven traitor terrorist but OMG... you can't just kill US citizens like we can those brown assholes in the middle east!

Yea there is a lot of truth to that. Many don't know outside their own backyard and a lot of the public will always think that way no matter how hard you try beating it into their brains....but again there's also a difference from civilians thinking inside their tiny box in an extreme chauvinistic fashion, and then the troops on the ground experiencing it. I've heard plenty of Marine trigger-happy "shoot anything that moves" stereotypes, but people do have problems when innocent civilians that we're trying to help getting caught up in the engagement of enemy combatants. (I know there are other sinister examples in leaked cables, but those are by far a minority)

This happens when you have an enemy insurgency that blends in with everyone else, and uses civilians as human shields. There's a reason why the suicide rate among vets is at an all-time high.

MonaPizza

melekalikimaka wrote: »

breaking the law because the law is being broken is not a logical i condone. He did what he felt morally obliged to do, and fair play to him, he's a brave lad. But he should be exempt from the law as a result. He knew this would happen and it did, bit of a no story tbh.

The government leaks classified documents all the time if those leaks show the government in a good light. I take it you expect the leakers of those documents to be handed lengthy prison sentences as well, no?

If Manning had leaked classified documents which outlined the government's program to halve infant mortality in 10 years or improve the quality of drinking water in all 50 states, you'd think he'd be thrown in a cell for 3 years, tortured, tried in a kangaroo court and then banged up for a sizeable chunk, if not all, of the rest of his life? Would he bollocks!!

You leak information that exposes government corruption, malfeasance and criminality or incompetence or anything embarrassing and you get the book thrown at you under some pathetic trumped up espionage charge. You leak a document that makes the pricks look good when they want to score some political points and you get a promotion.

Manning embarrassed the government and exposed their crimes, that's why he's being punished...to deter others. Typical childish US bitchiness.

Christ the Redeemer

Ulsteryank wrote: »

Yea there is a lot of truth to that. Many don't know outside their own backyard and a lot of the public will always think that way no matter how hard you try beating it into their brains....but again there's also a difference from civilians thinking inside their tiny box in an extreme chauvinistic fashion, and then the troops on the ground experiencing it. I've heard plenty of Marine trigger-happy "shoot anything that moves" stereotypes, but people do have problems when innocent civilians that we're trying to help getting caught up in the engagement of enemy combatants. (I know there are other sinister examples in leaked cables, but those are by far a minority)

This happens when you have an enemy insurgency that blends in with everyone else, and uses civilians as human shields. There's a reason why the suicide rate among vets is at an all-time high.

No one is born a terrorist. But they are born every time the Americans land their bombs on towns.

The whole thing stinks, like their "war on drugs" - completely ignore the root cause of the problem and profit hugely off the game of whack a mole that is their response.

Christ the Redeemer

MonaPizza wrote: »

The government leaks classified documents all the time if those leaks show the government in a good light. I take it you expect the leakers of those documents to be handed lengthy prison sentences as well, no?

If Manning had leaked classified documents which outlined the government's program to halve infant mortality in 10 years or improve the quality of drinking water in all 50 states, you'd think he'd be thrown in a cell for 3 years, tortured, tried in a kangaroo court and then banged up for a sizeable chunk, if not all, of the rest of his life? Would he bollocks!!

You leak information that exposes government corruption, malfeasance and criminality or incompetence or anything embarrassing and you get the book thrown at you under some pathetic trumped up espionage charge. You leak a document that makes the pricks look good when they want to score some political points and you get a promotion.

Manning embarrassed the government and exposed their crimes, that's why he's being punished...to deter others. Typical childish US bitchiness.

Valerie Plame. Exposed by the bush white house as a CIA operate in a sensitive area of the world because her Husband defied the president. One man gets convicted and just as quick gets off scot free by presidential pardon.

Ulsteryank

bumper234 wrote: »

And then Americans i know get apoplectic when Europeans say "Meh" when 3 people died in the Boston bombings.

I know. Funny too how in 1988 the IRA did the same at a marathon in Lisburn killing 6 and injuring 11 including a 2 year old and an 80 year with no doubt a good portion of funding coming from Boston....while speaking of Iraq, there were 55 killed in explosions there the day after the Boston bombings, and I didn't even see a headline on that here because every channel in the pub was about Boston.