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Abortion Bill Signed by Michael D

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    #32
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,006 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    greenpilot wrote: »
    Folks,
    We are finally out of the Dark Ages!

    I doubt 4,000+ women a year would agree with you.

    The only way to get Ireland out of the dark ages would be to nationalise and secularise all the schools and hospitals, starting tomorrow with the Matter.


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    #33
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    You'd also have this shower knocking around in the "shadows" : http://www.cngi.ie/recent-news




    .


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    #34
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Be relatively happy that Ireland still has one of the most pro-life legislative regimes in the world.

    ...except the legislation that allows for full term abortions when the mother threatens suicide. Yeah, really pro-life.


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    #35
    remsburgsgirl
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭remsburgsgirl


    greenpilot wrote: »
    Folks,
    We are finally out of the Dark Ages!

    We've gone backwards in a different direction...I have no faith in Ireland being capable of anything else.


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    #36
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    ...except the legislation that allows for full term abortions when the mother threatens suicide. Yeah, really pro-life.

    Heh, I'm not a fan of it either but thankfully that should be an extraordinarily rare occurance....if it occurs at all.


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    #37
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    ...except the legislation that allows for full term abortions when the mother threatens suicide. Yeah, really pro-life.

    Shocking the bizarre lies and misrepresentations that are posteed here by the YD mob.
    A "Full Term" abortion carried out under this legislation would actually be a ceasarian section or induced birth, both the full term baby and mother survive.


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    #38
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Fr Doran should have emphasised that the Mater's ethos would be entirely compatible with 90% of the new law. Life saving procedures are beign carried out in catholic hospitals very regularly that, unfortunetly, result in the termination of pregnancies and, often, the death of unborn babies.

    The only bit that would be an issue for the Mater, I presume, is the suicide element.....you know, the bit that NO medical expert could be found to support in the January hearings, the bit based on the advice of a single psychologist (not psychiatrist) back in 1992.

    An institution has a right to an ethos and the board have a legal obligation to defend that ethos.


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    #39
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Shocking the bizarre lies and misrepresentations that are posteed here by the YD mob.
    A "Full Term" abortion carried out under this legislation would actually be a ceasarian section or induced birth, both the full term baby and mother survive.

    To be fair, that's not specified in the legislation. A lot of stuff isn't specified in the legislation - with good reason - but neither is that. So you can't actually be sure.


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    #40
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Shocking the bizarre lies and misrepresentations that are posteed here by the YD mob.
    A "Full Term" abortion carried out under this legislation would actually be a ceasarian section or induced birth, both the full term baby and mother survive.

    What's YD? Under the act in case of threatened suicide abortion can be carried out at any time. Point me to a time limit related to abortion in the case of threatened suicide and I'll retract my statement.


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    #41
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    What's YD? Under the act in case of threatened suicide abortion can be carried out at any time. Point me to a time limit related to abortion in the case of threatened suicide and I'll retract my statement.

    Funny, my pregnancy was terminated at 39 weeks, or full term, and my 14 month old is hale and hearty.

    The pregnancy is terminated, not the baby. No doctor would deliver a live baby to save the life of a woman and then kill the baby during or post delivery in Ireland.

    Once again the idiots who fought to include the unnecessary constitutional provision on the right to life of a zygote failed to realise that one cannot legally put a time limit on a constitutional right, thereby ensuring the right to a termination of pregnancy for a woman who's life is in danger cannot be subject to time limits.


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    #42
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    lazygal wrote: »
    Funny, my pregnancy was terminated at 39 weeks, or full term, and my 14 month old is hale and hearty.

    The pregnancy is terminated, not the baby. No doctor would deliver a live baby to save the life of a woman and then kill the baby during or post delivery in Ireland.

    Once again the idiots who fought to include the unnecessary constitutional provision on the right to life of a zygote failed to realise that one cannot legally put a time limit on a constitutional right, thereby ensuring the right to a termination of pregnancy for a woman who's life is in danger cannot be subject to time limits.

    How many times does this have to be explained?! Seriously.


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    #43
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    lazygal wrote: »
    Funny, my pregnancy was terminated at 39 weeks, or full term, and my 14 month old is hale and hearty.

    The pregnancy is terminated, not the baby. No doctor would deliver a live baby to save the life of a woman and then kill the baby during or post delivery in Ireland.

    Once again the idiots who fought to include the unnecessary constitutional provision on the right to life of a zygote failed to realise that one cannot legally put a time limit on a constitutional right, thereby ensuring the right to a termination of pregnancy for a woman who's life is in danger cannot be subject to time limits.

    A more interesting/distressing question is, what would happen where a termination is deemed to be required at, say, 21 weeks. What happens then? Terminate and let the baby take it's chances?


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    #44
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    A more interesting/distressing question is, what would happen where a termination is deemed to be required at, say, 21 weeks. What happens then? Terminate and let the baby take it's chances?

    Yes. If the woman dies, the baby dies too. Is it better to let the woman take her chances and continue the pregnancy when there's a risk to her life? Not every woman would want the pregnancy terminated though, some are happy to take on substantial risks to continue a pregnancy, regardless of other options. I fully support the right to make that decision too.


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    #45
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,883 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Why are people getting worked up about the lack of term limits on abortion in this Bill? It's not as if someone waves a wand at 20 weeks and declares, "Your life will not be threatened for the rest of this pregnancy!"


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    #46
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Why are people getting worked up about the lack of term limits on abortion in this Bill? It's not as if someone waves a wand at 20 weeks and declares, "Your life will not be threatened for the rest of this pregnancy!"

    Wouldn't it be handy if Jesus came back and did just that? Problem solved!


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    #47
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,746 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Why are people getting worked up about the lack of term limits on abortion in this Bill? It's not as if someone waves a wand at 20 weeks and declares, "Your life will not be threatened for the rest of this pregnancy!"

    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.


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    #48
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    An institution has a right to an ethos and the board have a legal obligation to defend that ethos.

    An institution does have a right to an ethos. However, if that is neglecting their duty of care to patients as it clearly is in this instance, then state-funding to that institution should be stopped. I'd rather my tax money go to institutions that actually provide the medical care that patients are entitled to under Irish law.

    Basically, **** their "ethos" if it's denying patients the care they need and deserve.


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    #49
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    What's YD? Under the act in case of threatened suicide abortion can be carried out at any time. Point me to a time limit related to abortion in the case of threatened suicide and I'll retract my statement.

    Cmon ! When the fetus becomes viable its a csection ! Same if pre eclampsia was diagnosed and tell me this in all honesty when does a woman become suicidal, personally its as soon as those 2 lines come up at the pregnancy test not 7 months in, personal experience but I'm gifted with a family who do not stigmatize having kids outside marriage and have been a constant support


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    #50
    gcgirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,044 ✭✭✭gcgirl


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.

    There is no treatment for suicide

    And in fairness Ireland has a massive problem with suicide


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    #51
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.

    Yeah, we better just not offer abortions to suicidal pregnant women because they won't kill themselves. And if they do, sure at least we didn't take the chance on abortion.


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    #52
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.
    I would argue that it is when the reason she is suicidal is because she's pregnant. Living every day with a reminder of her rape and people expecting her to be delighted about being pregnant, for example, when all she can think about is having to birth the child of the man who raped her. Or when the foetus is dying or already dead and, again, people are expecting her to be happy, asking about when she's due, that sort of thing. I can definitely see the emotional strain of that driving a woman to take her own life.


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    #53
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.

    This is an empty slogan.

    a) It's not the question anyone actually asked anyone, psychiatrists or otherwise. When someone insists on answering a different question than anyone asks, one is generally right to smell a rat.
    b) This "answer" implicitly frames suicidality as necessarily being a psychiatric illness as such, and whether there's a "treatment" for that, and who should be in charge of deciding what that is. If you imposed that view on anyone other than pregnant women, people would look at you like you were crazy.
    c) The Supreme Court already decided on this.
    d) The people already decided on this.
    e) The people decided on this all over again, when the anti-abortion lobby demanded another do-over.

    As a general observation, you might not want to assume that "anti-abortion" support is as high as the noise they make might suggest. There's clearly a lot of "anti-abortion" sentiment that's more accurately "pro-status quo". Sure, we don't want to say we have abortion, but we're in favour of "necessary medical intervention" (which are abortions, if you're anything other than a Roman Catholic theologian, or other form of sophist), of "abortions in the really nasty cases like X" (and probably in other cases besides, beyond what's covered in the recent legislation"), and of course in "abortion if you can be bothered getting a Ryanair flight.

    Some would say the "problem" isn't suicide, it's with any degree of consistency or sincerity in said status quo.


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    #54
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    What's YD? Under the act in case of threatened suicide abortion can be carried out at any time. Point me to a time limit related to abortion in the case of threatened suicide and I'll retract my statement.

    I really despise this rhetoric of "threatened" suicide. It's trivialising, imputes bad faith to the patient, cluelessness to the doctors, and completely misrepresents the actual legislation. "I call suicide!" "When would madam like her abortion?" And you seem to be especially fond of it, using it repeatedly, in consecutive posts.

    The legislation allows for terminations where those are, in the opinion of three (in these days) separate doctors that it is the only feasible treatment. Patient can be rendered non-suicidal by counselling, analysis, etc? No abortion. Patient can be rendered non-suicidal by medication? No abortion. Patient has a viable foetus that can be delivered? Deliver it. Patient is deemed to be making insincere "threats" and isn't actually suicidal at all? No abortion.

    If term limits are your principal concern, I imagine you'll be agitating strongly for a "continental model" where early abortions are available on an at-will basis, the better to minimise the likelihood of having to worry about these post-viability situations. No? Thought not.


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    #55
    rustedtrumpet
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭rustedtrumpet


    Bet Michael D needed a footstool to sign it. lol


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    #56
    Christ the Redeemer
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Christ the Redeemer


    This won't go away. The leaders in America have long learned that ****ty issues like this are an amazing distraction from more important issues. They can continue to fleece the Irish people while we sit around bickering over single issues.


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    #57
    bored swahn kur
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭bored swahn kur


    lazygal wrote: »
    Funny, my pregnancy was terminated at 39 weeks, or full term, and my 14 month old is hale and hearty.
    can i just ask did this happen in ireland?


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    #58
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,183 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The problem is suicide.

    Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality.

    It depends on how you phrase it.
    "Most psychiatrists say abortion is not a treatment for suicidality"

    Or "most psychiatrists say abortion is not the primary/only treatment for suicidality"

    Don't know about you but if I was a teenage girl who'd been raped by my father and was now pregnant, councilling probably wouldn't work that well.

    In the dail hearings the prenatal psychiatrist said that a treatment such as abortion was a last consideration. Firstly they would have to be diagnosed by the GP. Then get a referral. Then a prenatal psychiatrist would have to diagnose. Then they would look at all the treatment options available. They would only refer the woman for an abortion after other avenues had been exhausted because as far as they're concerned the depression may or may not be directly related to the pregnancy and it may be possible to treat it without terminating the pregnancy.

    But I guess that psychiatrist wasn't the ones you were talking about. BTW, apparently there's only 4 or 5 of them working in the country and they all agree with the guy in the dail debate. There must be loads of them hiding just waiting to complete surveys so they can be the hidden majority.


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