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[Constitutional Convention][7][28 Sept 2013] Voting Rights for Citizens Abroad

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    #122
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    RangeR wrote: »
    Don't you have to give up your citizenship and passport of home country, if you get an Irish passport and Irish citizenship? You certainly can't be a citizen of two countries [NI clouds that slightly with the Good Friday Agreement, if I remember correctly.]

    Dual citizenship is extremely commonplace.


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    #123
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    RangeR wrote: »
    Don't you have to give up your citizenship and passport of home country, if you get an Irish passport and Irish citizenship? You certainly can't be a citizen of two countries [NI clouds that slightly with the Good Friday Agreement, if I remember correctly.]
    you can easily be a dual citizen.

    Some countries like the US (IIRC) though require you to revoke your old citizenship before being alowed to naturalise.
    Switzerland the same.
    Germany is the same for non-eu citizens who naturalise (and kids born in Germany of non eu parents), but EU citizens who naturalise are grand and can become dual citizens.
    So theres a big difference between having a non irish citizenship by birth along with your irish citizenship and having to go through procedures (and revoking your irish citizenship) to get a foreign passport.

    So, indeed, if an irish person emigrates to the US they need to revoke their irish citizenship to get US citizenship, but heck thats their tough and anyone who is no longer Irish would not have a vote.
    Theres probably no better way of saying that you've emigrated for good and broken links to your homeland than revoking your irish citizenship.


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    #124
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    My wife's friend got her US citizenship a couple of years ago, didn't have to give up her Irish passport.

    http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html
    Dual citizenship or dual nationality is simply being a citizen of two countries. The United States allows dual citizenship. For example, if you were born in Mexico you are a native-born Mexican. If you move to the United States and become a naturalized US citizen, you now have dual citizenship. Dual citizens can carry two passports and essentially live, work, and travel freely within their native and naturalized countries.

    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    So, indeed, if an irish person emigrates to the US they need to revoke their irish citizenship to get US citizenship

    Simply not true.

    Some countries don't allow their native-born citizens to renounce their citizenship, anyway - even on request.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #125
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    So, indeed, if an irish person emigrates to the US they need to revoke their irish citizenship to get US citizenship

    No, they don't. As we learned when Dana was running for President of Ireland, hey do have to repeat this oath:

    "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

    But apparently renouncing and abjuring all allegiance and fidelity to Ireland does not involve surrendering your passport.


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    #126
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,242 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Yeah could never get why people want to extend the right to vote, to people who have sworn the US Oath of Allegiance.


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    #127
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Is the "so help me god" bit compulsory?!?

    Edit:Nope
    When a petitioner or applicant for naturalization, by reason of religious training and belief (or individual interpretation thereof), or for other reasons of good conscience, cannot take the oath prescribed in paragraph (a) of this section with the words “on oath” and “so help me God” included, the words “and solemnly affirm” shall be substituted for the words “on oath,” the words “so help me God” shall be deleted, and the oath shall be taken in such modified form. Any reference to ‘oath of allegiance’ in this chapter is understood to mean equally ‘affirmation of allegiance’ as described in this paragraph.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #128
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Dual citizenship is actually quite common and getting more so. I suppose the 19th century concept of a nation state is evolving to a more modern 21st century concept with more fluid borders. From reading commentary on this many Irish people are stuck in the 19th century concept of nationality, what it means and who should we extend the vote to. Hopefully this will change.

    I know some people that have three passports. Technically I 'could' apply for a third (the UK), already have Australian and Irish passports. I know one girl that has 4 (Thai, Australian, Irish & USA). Many countries though do not allow dual citizenship, like China, Japan (technically possible but very difficult) Vietnam, India (although there is talk of reform here under Modi) and many other Asian/Middle East countries.

    The reverse is true as well, countries that don't allow dual citizenship are often have laws that make it very difficult if not impossible to become a naturalised citizen of that country. The contrast is even more stark for countries in the Middle East (Israel the exception here) where its virtually impossible for a migrants to become a citizen of a country like UAE or Bahrain among others for example. Generally, the more western and liberal the country the easier it is to hold multiple passports and to keep passports of other countries.

    The best thing about dual nationality is freedom of movement, no need to jump through hoops for visas and the like if one wants to get a work permit. Saying that, the best and those with skills on demand will always be able to go where they want.


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    #129
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Is the "so help me god" bit compulsory?!?

    No, but that isn't the bit that concened people about Dana.

    Mind you, I don't feel any particular allegiance or fidelity to Ireland as a state. Fondness, sure, and some responsibility as a citizen, but I don't think allegiance or fidelity really apply.


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    #130
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,060 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'd feel a lot better about my country if we dropped all the religious bolloxology out of the constitution.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #131
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    RangeR wrote: »
    Just to be clear, It's citizens abroad, not the wider "Irish" Diaspora. As in, if you hold an Irish Passport but not if your the great great grand child of an Irish citizen and never stepped a foot in our great country ... or some such.

    Great grandchildren of Irish born people can obtain Irish citizenship if their birth is registered with the FBR. Our citizenship by descent laws are utterly absurd and way too lax for Irish to extend voting rights to citizens abroad.


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    #132
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    MathDebater wrote: »
    Great grandchildren of Irish born people can obtain Irish citizenship if their birth is registered with the FBR. Our citizenship by descent laws are utterly absurd and way too lax for Irish to extend voting rights to citizens abroad.

    unless we include sometime residency as a requirement


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    #133
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    MathDebater wrote: »
    Great grandchildren of Irish born people can obtain Irish citizenship if their birth is registered with the FBR. Our citizenship by descent laws are utterly absurd and way too lax for Irish to extend voting rights to citizens abroad.

    It applies up to grandchildren not great grandchildren. The rules were changed in the early 90's if I remember correctly.


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    #134
    MathDebater
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭MathDebater


    View wrote: »
    It applies up to grandchildren not great grandchildren. The rules were changed in the early 90's if I remember correctly.
    A person whose great-grandfather or great-grandmother was born in Ireland may register for Irish citizenship provided that their parents had registered in the Foreign Births Register at the time of the person’s birth.

    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Frequently%20asked%20Questions%20about%20Irish%20Citizenship%20and%20Naturalisation
    unless we include sometime residency as a requirement

    As we saw recently, the current residency requirements are not being implemented or adhered to. I've no faith in that changing if we open up voting rights to citizens abroad.


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    #135
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    MathDebater wrote: »
    As we saw recently, the current residency requirements are not being implemented or adhered to. I've no faith in that changing if we open up voting rights to citizens abroad.

    which is why you need to allow more people to vote so you get closer to people following the rules.


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    #136
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Dial debate on Constitutional Convention
    Gerry Adams : All of the folks who came home to vote committed an illegality by voting, yet were lauded by the Government and by me as well, of course
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-06-09a.284&s=I+propose+to+take+Questions+Nos.+%22inclusive%2C+together%22#g292.r

    that might be too broad a statement but finally somebody has said it.

    plus no sign of the report being discussed this week maybe next


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