[Constitutional Convention][7][28 Sept 2013] Voting Rights for Citizens Abroad

VinLieger

clairefontaine wrote: »

In that case maybe its a better idea to change the criteria for citizenship. The US recently ammended its code for US citizens born abroad. Their parent must be a US citizen that can prove residency for a set time before the birth.

Also remember that Ireland does not have terra forma citizenship rights. It's OT enough to be born there, you must have a parent who is a citizen and also be a resident for a number of years.

If you attach voting rights through residency, then how do you feel about Ireland's immigrants voting, since the consequences will affect them directly?

As long as they are citizens and residents my concerns are gone

noooodles

The title of this thread is wrong. Citizens abroad already have the right to vote but cannot use it as its impractical to fly home at short notice.

Its simply embarrassing how Ireland makes no arrangements for our citizens. Even someone who happens to be on holidays/business during polling day is excluded.

The only solution I can see is giving 6 months notice of a forthcoming election/referendum, so people can make arrangements to be home.
This may not suit the politicians, but screw 'em. They're never afraid to screw us.

Feathers

noooodles wrote: »

The title of this thread is wrong. Citizens abroad already have the right to vote but cannot use it as its impractical to fly home at short notice.

Its simply embarrassing how Ireland makes no arrangements for our citizens. Even someone who happens to be on holidays/business during polling day is excluded.

The only solution I can see is giving 6 months notice of a forthcoming election/referendum, so people can make arrangements to be home.
This may not suit the politicians, but screw 'em. They're never afraid to screw us.

If they are abroad long-term though, then this method would affect the constituency system, e.g. if you had a disporportionate amount of people emmigrating from Donegal, this would swing the vote for candidates in that area.

Think the French system of a constituency for emmigrants would work best.

noooodles

Feathers wrote: »

If they are abroad long-term though, then this method would affect the constituency system, e.g. if you had a disporportionate amount of people emmigrating from Donegal, this would swing the vote for candidates in that area.

For sure theres problems, but that doesnt mean we simply dont bother.
Perhaps politicians are even a little too comfortable under the current system. Without leaving Donegal, I remember well a certain former TDs comments on young people going "on a holiday" before the last election.

Feathers wrote: »

Think the French system of a constituency for emmigrants would work best.

Too much like a fudge. Initially perhaps, to gauge/quantify electorate and avoid the unforseen.

Feathers

noooodles wrote: »

Too much like a fudge.

How do you mean?

View

noooodles wrote: »

Citizens abroad already have the right to vote but cannot use it as its impractical to fly home at short notice.

Citizens residing abroad cannot vote - it is electoral fraud if they "fly home" to vote.

munchkin_utd

View wrote: »

Citizens residing abroad cannot vote - it is electoral fraud if they "fly home" to vote.

yup, because registering and living abroad is somehow different than registering at your homeplace and living in a city across the country, sometimes for decades!

But anyhow, it really is too convenient for politicians to have the grey vote, the old fogies with whom they shake hands with at funerals and the likes (and Ming in Roscommon will tell you this is a principal reason folks will vote for you) decide elections based solely on seeing you once in person rather than the young folks recently emigrated who might vote for someone dynamic or someone based on their policies.

I can only think of an episode of RTEs Reeling in the Years from the 80s. One minute they are showing the devastation caused by emigration and the youth of Ireland departing by boat and plane.
The next, a report on the general election where the electorate (i.e. those who hadnt emigrated) re-elected the same eejits back into power who caused the bleakness that was the 80s.
The sum total was that the politicans kept on making policies for the older generation, lowering taxes and increasing spending rather than creating jobs to keep or bring back the youth of the country.

View

munchkin_utd wrote: »

yup, because registering and living abroad is somehow different than registering at your homeplace and living in a city across the country, sometimes for decades!

There is no difference in the two cases. You are required to vote where you reside (with some very limited exceptions to that).

Anyone who votes at a place other than where they reside commits electoral fraud.

munchkin_utd

View wrote: »

There is no difference in the two cases. You are required to vote where you reside (with some very limited exceptions to that).

Anyone who votes at a place other than where they reside commits electoral fraud.

there'd be a lot of folks in Ireland prosecuted with that so if it was actually actively pursued!

Its a pet hate of mine that us abroad cannot be possibly allowed to vote lest it destroy the integrity of the electoral register (check the outcome of the last constitutional convention which has this as its principal reason for not allowing the vote to emmigrants) YET I am fairly sure that most I know from my locality who has moved to Dublin or elsewhere within the country is still registered at home to vote.

e.g. I just checked my neighbour who left for college in 1995 at the other end of the country and he is still registered with his mother/ father 18 years after leaving home but still within the state.
I'd search for more but the Electoral register search is a pain in the rear.

expectationlost

what about living up in dublin say for 9 months of the year and then voting at home like most college students?

Feathers

expectationlost wrote: »

what about living up in dublin say for 9 months of the year and then voting at home like most college students?

In fairness, their home address is still their family home at that stage.

If you're voting in your final year of college, it wouldn't work to force someone to vote in Limerick because they're in UL for another 3 months, if they plan to move back home to Galway afterwards for the life of the government.

expectationlost

Feathers wrote: »

In fairness, their home address is still their family home at that stage.

If you're voting in your final year of college, it wouldn't work to force someone to vote in Limerick because they're in UL for another 3 months, if they plan to move back home to Galway afterwards for the life of the government.

college can be up to 4 years with atleast 9 months to 12 months spent in dublin for eg, if not the whole 4 years. is that not long enough to be consider a resident of dublin.

Feathers

expectationlost wrote: »

college can be up to 4 years with atleast 9 months to 12 months spent in dublin for eg, if not the whole 4 years. is that not long enough to be consider a resident of dublin.

If someone stays in the one spot yes maybe, though a lot of students go through lots of temporary accommodation while in college which could easily be across constituency boundaries. Their home address is still their family home at that stage though.

I think they could only get students to register their constituency as they moved if they had a more integrated register that would speed up the process.

expectationlost

Feathers wrote: »

If someone stays in the one spot yes maybe, though a lot of students go through lots of temporary accommodation while in college which could easily be across constituency boundaries. Their home address is still their family home at that stage though.

so it makes more sense for them to vote in mayo rather then dublin?

Feathers

expectationlost wrote: »

so it makes more sense for them to vote in mayo rather then dublin?

No, but it probably doesn't make much less sense anyway, we're going a bit off topic if these students are living in Dublin

RangeR

Survey for those living abroad.

The Convention on the Constitution is a new venture in participative democracy in Ireland tasked with considering certain aspects of the Constitution to ensure that it is fully equipped for the 21st Century and making recommendations to the Oireachtas on future amendments to be put to the people in referendums.

The topic for the Convention’s next plenary meeting in September is “giving citizens resident outside the State the right to vote in Presidential elections at Irish embassies, or otherwise”. TheConvention has already received a number of submissions on this topic (via its website www.constitution.ie) but is keen to ensure that as many Irish citizens as possible, particularly those resident abroad, are made aware of the opportunity of making an input to the Convention’s deliberations.

As part of the information gathering process, we would be grateful if Irish citizens resident outside the State would complete a simple online questionnaire, the results of which will improve the Convention members’ understanding of the issue. The link is attached below and the questionnaire will take no longer than 2 minutes to complete. The deadline for receipt of completed questionnaires is Wednesday, 18th September.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ConventionontheConstitution

Requests for further information or queries should be address to nason.fallon@constitution.ie or
amy.brennan@constitution.ie

Feathers

RangeR wrote: »

Survey for those living abroad.

Nice that they're seeking wider input. Pity that they're all closed questions though. The way some are phrased seem like they'll definitely be "reading between the lines".

Also the taxes questions has far too many double negatives! "if you're not paying taxes do you not think you should not have a say over those who do?" What?

Cookie_Monster

done

RangeR

eMail in.

I hope you’re all well and I’m looking forward to meeting up again next week.......

A couple of things:
(a) Firstly (and most importantly for many), we are aware that this meeting clashes with the replay of the hurling final......the schedule has been rearranged to start and finish slightly earlier than normal and we’ll be showing the match on the big screen in the room, with full surround sound etc., so I hope that you can stick around to watch it.......we’ll obviously also have some fun at the expense of the Clare people, who will come tantalisingly close but inevitably fail in their attempt to capture the Liam McCarthy Cup ;-)

(b) The running order for the weekend is attached......you will see that on Saturday at 11, an interesting feature is our Global Panel Discussion – we’re beaming in representatives from our Diaspora across 17 timezones from Australia to the USA and Canada to give us their thoughts on the issue;

(c) You should have the advance briefing material by Friday – the preparation for this meeting shouldn’t be too onerous this time.


Finally, if you haven’t let Amy know about your accommodation or any other requirements, I’d be grateful if you would get in touch amy.brennan@constitution.ie

Kindest regards,

Art

On a small side note, Art's father passed away during the week. Sincerest commiserations. Art is a member of the secretariat, who handle all the background work for the convention.

Iwasfrozen

RangeR wrote: »

(a) Firstly (and most importantly for many), we are aware that this meeting clashes with the replay of the hurling final......the schedule has been rearranged to start and finish slightly earlier than normal and we’ll be showing the match on the big screen in the room, with full surround sound etc., so I hope that you can stick around to watch it.......we’ll obviously also have some fun at the expense of the Clare people, who will come tantalisingly close but inevitably fail in their attempt to capture the Liam McCarthy Cup ;-)

For fúcks sake. No offence but this is a constitutional convention. If you're not going to take it more seriously than a hurling game then you shouldn't be there.

RangeR

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For fúcks sake. No offence but this is a constitutional convention. If you're not going to take it more seriously than a hurling game then you shouldn't be there.

I'm not a GAA fan but I still don't agree with you. A little bit of an exaggeration. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of wind down time.

Iwasfrozen

RangeR wrote: »

I'm not a GAA fan but I still don't agree with you. A little bit of an exaggeration. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of wind down time.

Nothing wrong with it at all, but rearranging the meeting of a very serious issue so the representatives of the people can watch a hurling match is disgraceful.

View

RangeR wrote: »

I'm not a GAA fan but I still don't agree with you. A little bit of an exaggeration. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a bit of wind down time.

Ok - so, if Joe & Mary wind down watching Hockey or Lacrosse, the convention will re-schedule to suit them, right?

Cody Pomeray

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nothing wrong with it at all, but rearranging the meeting of a very serious issue so the representatives of the people can watch a hurling match is disgraceful.

View wrote: »

Ok - so, if Joe & Mary wind down watching Hockey or Lacrosse, the convention will re-schedule to suit them, right?

There is pettiness, and then there is this.

All they did was change the time, and the pedantic are up in arms with their rule books. The All Ireland is an event of major national interest considering its place in society and among the hundreds of thousands who take an interest in it. It's just common sense to rejig the times, considering these people are volunteers. I appreciate that common sense is not in everyone's repertoire.

Sporting events of major interest bring cohesion where it is needed most, to groups of diverse backgrounds and opinions, who need a common bond.

Given the context in this case, I can only conclude it has more to do with cultural embarrassment than any genuine concern for the participants or the constitution.

Iwasfrozen

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

There is pettiness, and then there is this.

All they did was change the time, and the pedantic are up in arms with their rule books. The All Ireland is an event of major national interest considering its place in society and among the hundreds of thousands who take an interest in it. It's just common sense to rejig the times, considering these people are volunteers. I appreciate that common sense is not in everyone's repertoire.

Sporting events of major interest bring cohesion where it is needed most, to groups of diverse backgrounds and opinions, who need a common bond.

Given the context in this case, I can only conclude it has more to do with cultural embarrassment than any genuine concern for the participants or the constitution.

No I simply don't agree with you. The volunteers of this convention need to understand and appreciate the opportunity they are being to given to work for the people of Ireland. That a convention of such magnitude dealing with such important issues would reschedule itself for a sports match is despicable.

RangeR

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I simply don't agree with you. The volunteers of this convention need to understand and appreciate the opportunity they are being to given to work for the people of Ireland. That a convention of such magnitude dealing with such important issues would reschedule itself for a sports match is despicable.

We will probably start an hour earlier than normal. We will still discuss the very important topic with all the seriousness it deserves.

I didn't hear you complaining when we agreed to start an hour late EVERY SUNDAY to allow members partake in their religious freedom. A religion that I don't agree with, yet didn't complain about either.

expectationlost

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I simply don't agree with you. The volunteers of this convention need to understand and appreciate the opportunity they are being to given to work for the people of Ireland. That a convention of such magnitude dealing with such important issues would reschedule itself for a sports match is despicable.

i've just gone through a lot of the video for two weekends and the amount of time spent amazed me, it was very intensive, and add to that their discussion time, I didn't manage to watch them all, how much effort have you made to engage in this process*,have you even bother to watch a weekends of these videos? I was late to do so.


my biggest criticism would be difficulty in the public engaging in this process, could be made easier. A disconnect between those who did and those who didn't which doesn't engender trust in process.

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

i've just gone through a lot of the video for two weekends and the amount of time spent amazed me, it was very intensive, and add to that their discussion time, I didn't manage to watch them all, how much effort have you made to engage in this process, you've even bother to watch a weekends of these videos? I was late to do so.

Its exceptionally intensive. To be honest, as well as each weekend, I also take each following Monday off work as annual leave just to rest.

Cody Pomeray

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I simply don't agree with you. The volunteers of this convention need to understand and appreciate the opportunity they are being to given to work for the people of Ireland. That a convention of such magnitude dealing with such important issues would reschedule itself for a sports match is despicable.

Oh come off it.

They're not working any less hours. They're starting early and finishing early. What difference does it make?

expectationlost

agh it would made such a difference if the submissions were searchable