Irish Rail MK3 Coaches - North Wall Update

GBOA

If you won Euromillions, I doubt you would need to worry about the actual carriage cost. 5 - 6 thousand € or so if you use Losty's rough guide a few posts ago, plus transport costs.

Getting IÉ to sell would be the problem unless you had somewhere to put one. A single carriage requires a surprisingly large amount of room to store and I can't imagine your neighbours would be too pleased if you tried sticking a rusting 23m long carriage in your garden!

LoonyLovegood

Would they even get €200 a tonne for the steel considering the visible rust that's on many of them?

Victor

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Would they even get €200 a tonne for the steel considering the visible rust that's on many of them?

If I'm right, the body shells are aluminium (maybe €1,000 per tonne) and the bogeys are steel. Total mass about 40 tonnes x more than 50 carriages.

Thats a scrap value of at least €400,000.

corktina

scrap value for rust is the same as steel afaik.

goingnowhere

Mk3 is steel

Weight is 34 tons, of which you have to account for the interior, electrics, ac and so on

So scrap value is probably around 5-6k

GBOA

Victor wrote: »

If I'm right, the body shells are aluminium (maybe €1,000 per tonne) and the bogeys are steel.

To the best of my knowledge, the body is a monocoque design of stressed steel fabrication. I'm not entirely sure aluminium would have the required strength.

EDIT - goingnowhere got there before me.

Losty Dublin

CTYIgirl wrote: »

Would they even get €200 a tonne for the steel considering the visible rust that's on many of them?

Almost all iron and steel vehicles, tools and vehicles rust to some degree over time. When smelted, the small amount of rust that you see melts down into steel.

lord lucan

Looks like the Dundalk MKIIIs are finally getting the chop. Photo from Track and Signal on twitter.

TheBandicoot

Any chance you could post a link to the exact Twitter account?

dublinman1990

Here you go.

https://twitter.com/32Milepost/status/432844520447696897/photo/1

https://twitter.com/32milepost

IE are downright mad to get rid of them for the chop. I have never been on the Mark IV's at all yet; but I know that the Mark III's are way better in terms of their comfort.

clunked

What a stupid waste:mad:

Jamie2k9

clunked wrote: »

What a stupid waste:mad:

oh would you build a bridge and get over it, it gets a little boarding reading the same sort of posts with the last 7 years. Getting fed up of looking at the Mark3's in Waterford, hopefully they will be next to go.

It's actually hard to believe many of the 22 are in their seventh year of service already, only seems like yesterday they arrived.

bob425

It will be 25 years ago tomorrow ( 11th Feb ) I went to Malahide to see one of the Mk3 push pulls on trial. It ran to Dundalk and back before returning to Inchicore. How ironic it is Dundalk again !

corktina

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Here you go.

https://twitter.com/32Milepost/status/432844520447696897/photo/1

https://twitter.com/32milepost

IE are downright mad to get rid of them for the chop. I have never been on the Mark IV's at all yet; but I know that the Mark III's are way better in terms of their comfort.

how?

clunked

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

oh would you build a bridge and get over it, it gets a little boarding reading the same sort of posts with the last 7 years. Getting fed up of looking at the Mark3's in Waterford, hopefully they will be next to go.

It's actually hard to believe many of the 22 are in their seventh year of service already, only seems like yesterday they arrived.

'Twas the right call for the past 7 years but you can't turn back the clock unfortunately.

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

how?

The Mk3s ride far better or Irish track than the Mk4s do. IE even did ride modifications on the Mk4s at Connolly valet plant after they entered service.

IE also ran a test train to Cork and back, half the train was Mk3s and the other half were Mk4s and was hauled by 234. IE and CAF engineers were on board.

That more than shows the CAF Mk4s are not that well suited compared to the 1970s BREL Mk3 design.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Mk3s ride far better or Irish track than the Mk4s do. IE even did ride modifications on the Mk4s at Connolly valet plant after they entered service.

IE also ran a test train to Cork and back, half the train was Mk3s and the other half were Mk4s and was hauled by 234. IE and CAF engineers were on board.

That more than shows the CAF Mk4s are not that well suited compared to the 1970s BREL Mk3 design.

The renewal of track across the network have helped with the Mark 4's a lot. Travel to Cork and you can tell old and new track sections, doing 100mph on the new tracks is very smooth and conferrable but the 22's are a little better IMO.

corktina

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Mk3s ride far better or Irish track than the Mk4s do. IE even did ride modifications on the Mk4s at Connolly valet plant after they entered service.

IE also ran a test train to Cork and back, half the train was Mk3s and the other half were Mk4s and was hauled by 234. IE and CAF engineers were on board.

That more than shows the CAF Mk4s are not that well suited compared to the 1970s BREL Mk3 design.

I know that but the guy said he's never been in a Mk4 but the mk3s were better.!

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Mk3s ride far better or Irish track than the Mk4s do. IE even did ride modifications on the Mk4s at Connolly valet plant after they entered service.

IE also ran a test train to Cork and back, half the train was Mk3s and the other half were Mk4s and was hauled by 234. IE and CAF engineers were on board.

That more than shows the CAF Mk4s are not that well suited compared to the 1970s BREL Mk3 design.

The Mark 3's were far from perfect when they were introduced into service. They suffered with poor ride quality for years and especially around bends, their air brakes were known to not apply fully if paired with some engines, air conditioning units failed on a regular basis while the infamous issues relating to their jammed doors got so bad that engineers had to travel on board some services; one hour delays were a daily occurence. All of these faults took several years to iron out fully, something which has been also been the case with the Mark 4's. They are a express vehicle which were built to a slightly different level of service specification to the Mark 3's.

GTE

I wouldn't mind so much of the livery hasn't gone with them.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

oh would you build a bridge and get over it, it gets a little boarding reading the same sort of posts with the last 7 years. Getting fed up of looking at the Mark3's in Waterford, hopefully they will be next to go.

It's actually hard to believe many of the 22 are in their seventh year of service already, only seems like yesterday they arrived.

perfectly good carriges left to rot which could have still been in service while people on certain routes still have to suffer 29 k operation and overcrowded services is rather a kick in the teeth in my opinion

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

perfectly good carriges left to rot which could have still been in service while people on certain routes still have to suffer 29 k operation and overcrowded services is rather a kick in the teeth in my opinion

A lot more of those Mark 3's would be parked up today than the number of 22's and still be rotting away.

Not forgetting the PP sets are speed restricted, un serviceable out of Heuston now.

bikeman1

Yes but it wouldn't be a problem for the Rosslare and Sligo lines to have a refurbished Mk3 push-pull set and the grandfather rights could stop at shorter platforms.

But hey ho, those "old" orange trains are a thing of the past, we would rather drafty 29000s on intercity routes, cramped 22s that regularly fail, Mk4s that rattle the bones out of you the whole way to Cork instead. Oh and at the same time spend a fortune on doing that which we are now paying for, instead of a modest upgrage of the assets we had along with the purchase of some new trains to replace the Mk2s.

end of the road

bikeman1 wrote: »

Yes but it wouldn't be a problem for the Rosslare and Sligo lines to have a refurbished Mk3 push-pull set and the grandfather rights could stop at shorter platforms.

But hey ho, those "old" orange trains are a thing of the past, we would rather drafty 29000s on intercity routes, cramped 22s that regularly fail, Mk4s that rattle the bones out of you the whole way to Cork instead. Oh and at the same time spend a fortune on doing that which we are now paying for, instead of a modest upgrage of the assets we had along with the purchase of some new trains to replace the Mk2s.

not if the mark 4s werent bought as lets face it 125 MPH on the cork line probably won't happen in my lifetime, and an hourly belfast service was introduced, you have carriges and you buy carriges find work for them or don't buy

Jamie2k9

But hey ho, those "old" orange trains are a thing of the past, we would rather drafty 29000s on intercity routes, cramped 22s that regularly fail, Mk4s that rattle the bones out of you the whole way to Cork instead. Oh and at the same time spend a fortune on doing that which we are now paying for, instead of a modest upgrage of the assets we had.

22 regularly fail, yes there is a couple of failures together but they don't regularly fail. The Mark3's also regularly fail and cost a lot more to run for a company that is trying to cut down costs and passengers don't want to pay operating costs. There would never be enough Mark 3's to cover intercity routes, 2900 would still operate to Sligo/Rosslare.

Mk4's are not half as bad since they got repairs done and on all sections on new track there is next to no movement.

not if the mark 4s werent bought as lets face it 125 MPH on the cork line probably won't happen in my lifetime, and an hourly belfast service was introduced, you have carriges and you buy carriges find work for them or don't buy

There were built for 125mph but IE didn't buy the locomotives for it and lets face it people would be given out if many of the 201's were scraped in 2005/wouldn't you?

IE's network is the problem not the rolling stock.

bikeman1

I know I would have much preferred the ratio of investment in the railways to be more in favour of infrastructure than shiny new trams from Korea.

The Mk3s could have been overhauled like in the UK.

Infrastructure such as 125mph to Cork and Belfast. Triple tracking Connnolly - Howth Junction, further removing permanent speed restrictions such as Limerick Junction and the Maynooth Line. Safeguarding against Malahide viaduct and other weather related disruptions such as flooding on the Ennis line, Cork Station roof and the rockslide at Waterford station.

Jamie2k9

bikeman1 wrote: »

I know I would have much preferred the ratio of investment in the railways to be more in favour of infrastructure than shiny new trams from Korea.

The Mk3s could have been overhauled like in the UK.

Infrastructure such as 125mph to Cork and Belfast. Triple tracking Connnolly - Howth Junction, further removing permanent speed restrictions such as Limerick Junction and the Maynooth Line. Safeguarding against Malahide viaduct and other weather related disruptions such as flooding on the Ennis line, Cork Station roof and the rockslide at Waterford station.

Agree about infrastructure and yes an overhaul could of happened still costly and things could be a lot worse today if they were in services. In the UK train operators don't want to spend money on rolling stock as its all franchised out (currently changing) to encourage operators to buy new rolling stock etc.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

22 regularly fail, yes there is a couple of failures together but they don't regularly fail. The Mark3's also regularly fail and cost a lot more to run for a company that is trying to cut down costs and passengers don't want to pay operating costs. There would never be enough Mark 3's to cover intercity routes, 2900 would still operate to Sligo/Rosslare.

Mk4's are not half as bad since they got repairs done and on all sections on new track there is next to no movement.



There were built for 125mph but IE didn't buy the locomotives for it and lets face it people would be given out if many of the 201's were scraped in 2005/wouldn't you?

IE's network is the problem not the rolling stock.

its IE'S miss-management of rolling stock jamie thats the problem, the ICRS would still need to have been bought as a replacement for the mark 2s and cravens stock, the mark 3s could then run the hourly cork and hourly bellfast service, their really was no excuse for carriges of such a young age to be scrapped, the same design is still running at 125 MPH in the UK, grandfather rights could also have been given to these carriges, i mean if pacer railbuses are still allowed to run on a railway within the EU then we'd be able to get out of having to refurbish every carrige for disabled access, 1 per rake would be enough

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

its IE'S miss-management of rolling stock jamie thats the problem, the ICRS would still need to have been bought as a replacement for the mark 2s and cravens stock, the mark 3s could then run the hourly cork and hourly bellfast service, their really was no excuse for carriges of such a young age to be scrapped, the same design is still running at 125 MPH in the UK, grandfather rights could also have been given to these carriges, i mean if pacer railbuses are still allowed to run on a railway within the EU then we'd be able to get out of having to refurbish every carrige for disabled access, 1 per rake would be enough

The Mark4's were ordered before the 22's for Cork so they wouldn't of being got.

Remember here TD's on the Sligo route wouldn't accept Mark3's as they were not good enough so new trains would of being got and Mark 3's scrapped anyway.

As I already said train operators in the UK are not going to buy new stock for a franchise when they could lose it in 10 years which is why this is being changed.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

TD's on the Sligo route wouldn't accept Mark3's as they were not good enough so new trains would of being got and Mark 3's scrapped anyway.

not if irish rail just put the mark 3s on the sligo line anyway, us rosslare passengers would have gladly taken them so the idea of TDS refusing to except them is still galling to this day when we had to put up with 27/28/2900s

Victor

end of the road wrote: »

grandfather rights could also have been given to these carriges,

Grandfather rights are all well and good until you step off a train at no platform.

i mean if pacer railbuses are still allowed to run on a railway within the EU then we'd be able to get out of having to refurbish every carrige for disabled access, 1 per rake would be enough

Only a certain percentage is required, not every carriage - the 22000s only had one wheelchair accessible WC per set (possibly 2 on the 6-car sets).

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

As I already said train operators in the UK are not going to buy new stock for a franchise when they could lose it in 10 years which is why this is being changed.

The train operating companies tend to lease trains, so there is no absolute need to own them.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

not if irish rail just put the mark 3s on the sligo line anyway, us rosslare passengers would have gladly taken them so the idea of TDS refusing to except them is still galling to this day when we had to put up with 27/28/2900s

If Irish Rail just did a lot of things it would be great but it would be discussed at leaders questions and demands made to reverse it. Irish Rail are the company but TD's are running it, however IE are starting to get tough on them and at least Leo V is supportive of them being tough to :rolleyes:

The train operating companies tend to lease trains, so there is no absolute need to own them.

Fair enough but there is no incentive to upgrade the stock etc because of the current set up.

bikeman1

The TDs not wanting "hand me downs" from the Cork line is a classic example why TDs should stay out of issues they don't know much about.

I am sure many Sligo line passengers would have much rather Mk3s than the 29000s.

Do you remember the ad they had with the 29s saying there were new trains, but the 29s commuter logo was hidden behind trees!

Jamie2k9

bikeman1 wrote: »

The TDs not wanting "hand me downs" from the Cork line is a classic example why TDs should stay out of issues they don't know much about.

I am sure many Sligo line passengers would have much rather Mk3s than the 29000s.

Do you remember the ad they had with the 29s saying there were new trains, but the 29s commuter logo was hidden behind trees!

That will never happen.

All lines have had 2600/7/8/9 at some stage, I spend a lot of time with 2600's on Waterford line until they were changed to Mark 1 and worked there way up.

Anyway there are gone and nothing anybody can do.

end of the road

Victor wrote: »

Granfather rights are all well and good until you step off a train at no platform.

an anouncement to move to the front of the train would sort that

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

an anouncement to move to the front of the train would sort that

That's still done on some ICR services. I was on an ICR to Galway over the new year and at one of the stops (can't remember now) the driver asked people to move forward before departing the train. I thought those days were gone.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's still done on some ICR services. I was on an ICR to Galway over the new year and at one of the stops (can't remember now) the driver asked people to move forward before departing the train. I thought those days were gone.

They are unless there was a delay or platform works taken place somewhere.

dublinman1990

Why are the likes of TD's politicizing the situation regarding the Mark III's? Do they not think that they should really have no say in the way that the trains are meant to be run?

The answer to that both unfortunately (and regrettably) is no.

I would think of the idea that politicians taking part in the affairs of the rail passenger (in particular of TD's not wanting the Mark III's for their train service) is really for their own personal interest and not representative of their electorate. If these representatives had any hard evidence to suggest that their constituents have had problems with these rolling stock, well they may shown that evidence via their representatives to either IE or the NTA and than highlight it in Dail Eireann when they are questioning that to Leo V.

That same method of questioning rail affairs has happened to different rolling stock even within even within ministers from our current government, i.e Alan Kelly.

People like that with very little power should not have that power to influence a company whether it is to fuel their own personal interest whilst demeaning the interest of their people they are supposed to represent.

Victor

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Why are the likes of TD's politicizing the situation regarding the Mark III's? Do they not think that they should really have no say in the way that the trains are meant to be run?

This was about 8 years ago.

Hungerford

A single generator van was spared from scrapping in Dundalk for some reason.

Captain Chaos

Hungerford wrote: »

A single generator van was spared from scrapping in Dundalk for some reason.

Yeah it's to be kept for some deal that may or may not happen. Supposedly just 34 of the Mk3s at North Wall are for scrap and the rest spared for the time being. 6105 being one of them. I heard that two of the EGVs in Dundalk were to be spared but looks like just 1 made it. EGV 7601 survived, 7612 got scrapped 3 days ago.

Standards 7101 and 7156 were reported to be still there yesterday.

end of the road

so why are some being spaired? its not as if they will be seeing service

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

so why are some being spaired? its not as if they will be seeing service

They may be, the ITG may well end up with a small push pull set and there is supposedly a private operator VSOE deal ongoing and the spare Mk3s are for that.

davidlacey

I see 077 hauled a rake of Mark 3s to inchicore the other day ,are they getting scrapped there?

Losty Dublin

davidlacey wrote: »

I see 077 hauled a rake of Mark 3s to inchicore the other day ,are they getting scrapped there?

A few Mark 3's are to be converted into vehicles for use on the weed spray trains; maybe it was them you heard of.

GMKK96

077 hauled DVT 6105 and MK3s to Inchicore on Thursday for some attention I'm told. 6105 was to be brought back to North Wall but I'm not sure about the other MK3s.
www(.)youtube(.)com/watch?v=FeQPgGLLIoU
228 hauled a transfer from Dundalk to Belfast this morning.
Retaurant no. 7403 and EGV 7607 are to be converted for use in the weedspray train anyway. Not sure if anymore will be put to use in the PWD.

Temp101

The Mk3's hauled to Inchicore on Thursday were, I believe, the first five of the ten so-called VSOE coaches. 6105 was needed as brake van, and will do at least another trip to/from North Wall for the remainder. They may be just storing them at Inchicore, as they want to clear North Wall.

flyingsnail

Temp101 wrote: »

The Mk3's hauled to Inchicore on Thursday were, I believe, the first five of the ten so-called VSOE coaches. 6105 was needed as brake van, and will do at least another trip to/from North Wall for the remainder. They may be just storing them at Inchicore, as they want to clear North Wall.

VSOE ??

Temp101

About five posts back in this thread?

corktina

flyingsnail wrote: »

VSOE ??

Venice Simplon Orient Express