Irish Rail MK3 Coaches - North Wall Update

IrishRail Fanatic1987

Hi to all,

I just wanted to start a new thread on the current remaining Irish Rail MK3 stock at North Wall freight yard and other locations dotted around the network.

Recently I had spoken to a very nice enthusiast who informed me that some of the coaches have now been moved to Inchicore to be inspected and assessed to see the current extent of desegregation and possibly how much work would be needed to refurbish them.

I mean in the UK these coaches are still running, there is no reason why they can't keep running here. These coaches are fantastic rolling stock and are by far superior than the MK 4 stock running from Dublin to Cork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyjH9rWOcSM

I will tell you this I was on the Cravens stock to Cork over the weekend and even they have more comfort than the MK4 Stock in my opinion (Seats on the current stock are so uncomfortable)

Just looking for some updates on their status. All comments welcome

corktina

i don't think we'll see salvation coming for these coaches. Their time is up somewhat prematurely I think

Captain Chaos

The push pull sets were the only stock with any small hope of coming back but 3 of the 5 DVTs have been scrapped. The 2 left don't look too good and with talk of some Mk4s being mothballed or put in warm storage the Mk3s look to be finished.

The best we could hope for is for 3-4 push pull standards and a DVT being selected for preservation to run with 124 or 134. Being non air con stock they would be easier to maintain. Maybe even the cafe/bar car that was converted to push pull operation.

Rud

I was in Waterford a few weeks ago and the mk3s left down there look in a horrible state

corktina

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The push pull sets were the only stock with any small hope of coming back but 3 of the 5 DVTs have been scrapped. The 2 left don't look too good and with talk of some Mk4s being mothballed or put in warm storage the Mk3s look to be finished.

The best we could hope for is for 3-4 push pull standards and a DVT being selected for preservation to run with 124 or 134. Being non air con stock they would be easier to maintain. Maybe even the cafe/bar car that was converted to push pull operation.

or 226...(don't know if this is possible..has sockety things n the front of it)

Temp101

To open the doors on Mk.3' P/Ps, 226 would need controls which it isn't fitted with.

Captain Chaos

A guard or second man in the DVT cab can. Same as when the Mk3s are/were hauled by any loco other than a 121 or 201.

Temp101

There's also the little matter of a lack of air brakes on 226 (i.e. the "C" class one).
Re the original post, I wasn't aware of Mk.3's being moved from North Wall to Inchicore of late. Is there any information to support this?

IrishRail Fanatic1987

Temp101 wrote: »

There's also the little matter of a lack of air brakes on 226 (i.e. the "C" class one).
Re the original post, I wasn't aware of Mk.3's being moved from North Wall to Inchicore of late. Is there any information to support this?

This information was given to me by a passenger over the weekend. He was a member of the IRRS and he said a few of the coaches had recently been moved up to the works. I can't recall the gentleman's name. I myself haven't been down to North Wall to verify this but I wanted to see if anyone else had info on the current status of the stock.

Who knows they could be starting to move them to the works for scrapping

GMKK96

This was posted on Irish Railway News five days ago.
"The end is nigh for the mk3s at Inchicore anyway, some carriages were due to be moved within the complex today in preparation for imminent scrapping, including a City Gold coach."

IrishRail Fanatic1987

GMKK96 wrote: »

This was posted on Irish Railway News five days ago.
"The end is nigh for the mk3s at Inchicore anyway, some carriages were due to be moved within the complex today in preparation for imminent scrapping, including a City Gold coach."

I did see this too, perhaps before scrapping they wish to see if any are worth saving. I know that the Presidential stock are still preserved in Inchicore too in pristine condition.

All we can hope for at this stage is for a investor to come along and rescue some examples of this stock but I'd say now its too late

Captain Chaos

The Mk2D coach 5408 is the only presidential coach and is still in Inchicore. It was to be moved to Whitehead and was seen being shunted around by 8208 in Connolly yard but the move was cancelled. I read that it was found that 5408 was not route or gauge cleared beyond Belfast but I don't see how that's an issue seeing as it's a Mk2D.

The Mk3 Executives 7161 and 7162 were turned in City Gold coaches some years ago.

IrishRail Fanatic1987

Oh I know that sorry I should have specified. I am aware the Mk3 Executives were repainted in City Gold livery years back and the only presidential coach is the MK2D.

I suppose thread after thread, comment after comment could be posted about what if and what could have been but the sad truth is that without preservation groups doing good work none of this stock would remain.

Sad really but then that just that...

CaptainSkidmark

I was on the MK3's on the Paddington - Swansea line a few weeks back and they are grand out. nice and comfy too

dowlingm

I don't understand what 5408 is supposed to be for now. Presumably it is incompatible with Mk4 and DD stock. IE have no interest in operating a museum facility by all appearances.

flyingsnail

dowlingm wrote: »

I don't understand what 5408 is supposed to be for now. Presumably it is incompatible with Mk4 and DD stock. IE have no interest in operating a museum facility by all appearances.

It is to be transferred to Whitehead for use with the RPSI mk2 stock.

robclay26

Have mark 3 carriage photos taken in Dundalk yesterday 26/July if anybody be interested I will post them.

goingnowhere

dowlingm wrote: »

I don't understand what 5408 is supposed to be for now. Presumably it is incompatible with Mk4 and DD stock. IE have no interest in operating a museum facility by all appearances.

And should not, there job is to run a (passenger) railway anything else is a distraction and a new black hole for tax payers money

corktina

ah right! history is bunk eh?

eejoynt

Back to basics
This is about a historic coach which has been donated by IE to RPSIbwho operate a museum and according to their website will be upping their game in that area

Don't feed the trolls

dowlingm

I'm actually somewhat in sympathy with goingnowhere's point - it should not be CIE's responsibility to fund the creation and operation of a national transport museum... but there should be one under the auspices of the National Museum (whether they like it or not) and CIE should yield up any and all records and artefacts that might be hiding in various places currently only known of by staff and the IRRS that would be suitable for a national exhibition.

Might as well wish for unicorns, I know...

eejoynt

Two points. A better purpose might be served by designating the transport part of the uftm as a cross border body under the GFA and co funding it

Can you outline the legal measures necessary to give existing cie and irrs property to the national museum ?

Banjoxed

corktina wrote: »

ah right! history is bunk eh?

The Word of Our Ford!

Losty Dublin

eejoynt wrote: »

Two points. A better purpose might be served by designating the transport part of the uftm as a cross border body under the GFA and co funding it

Can you outline the legal measures necessary to give existing cie and irrs property to the national museum ?

1) The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum owns the vast majority of it's displayed collection. It would be highly unlikely to pass on or loan any of it's exhibits though the thought is nice. The only way that this may happen is if a similar bona fide museum is established here and establishes it's professional credentials. In other words, it's a matter for Cabinet and Sir Humphrey's to enact as we do not have a private museum capable of such a project. Those private ones which do struggle with varying levels of success/failure.


2) CIE and the IRRS as such are private entities and thus they may loan or donate whatever of their assets that they deem appropriate. Most of what the IRRS have are paper records so their collection is less suited to a museum; they do however have maps, photos, name plates, signs and some oddments which is suitable for display. CIE, through Irish Rail, have donated and/or loaned stuff to museums around the isles over the years. This ranges from minor pieces such as old tickets and uniforms to rolling stock and even signal cabins! They are far more careful about releasing pieces today for many reasons, good and bad depending on ones aspect.

3) In the mid 90's there was a serious effort made to set up a State Transport Museum in Mullingar. A lot of the right sides were pushing to get it done but it fell down and has yet to be rekindled. From the residue of same it probably never will as it was messy.

eejoynt

Less there be any misunderstanding I suggest that this state co fund some of the uftm as a national railway museum
This is de facto what it is....they took a very broad view of ulste...Donegal Cavan and Leitrim DNGR, but by no way could the Howth tram the DKR coach and the maedhbh be considered part of ulster.

Losty Dublin

eejoynt wrote: »

Less there be any misunderstanding I suggest that this state co fund some of the uftm as a national railway museum
This is de facto what it is....they took a very broad view of ulste...Donegal Cavan and Leitrim DNGR, but by no way could the Howth tram the DKR coach and the maedhbh be considered part of ulster.

Those pieces that you mention simply ended up in Cultra because there was nowhere else for them at the time.

That said, your above point about funding is very valid and one that warrants a good discussion here.

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

1) 2) CIE and the IRRS as such are private entities

Yes to the second. Whatever moral obligation they might have to cooperate with a public exhibition in respect of the assistance they have got from CIE over the years for their activities, they have no legal one. But let's not go down the road of referring to CIE as a private entity. It is an agency of the State. Its assets are, albeit at a remove, the State's assets.

eejoynt

Maybe you haven't noticed from y our canadian vista, the state is broke.
Funding for a new rail museum is not likely to say the least.
Most heritage related suff is in private hands...often on display.
If you look at the online irish census you will see a 1911 dublin tram timetable online with a credit to the IRRS which would indicate a willingness on their part to co operate with public interest work.
But back to museums. We are a small island with a population less than greater Manchester
We have a railway museum on the island with a well established pedigree, if irish taxpayers money was to be spent, a lot more bang for he buck would be got by adding value to cult ar than by building anew in dublin
We have a legal framework to do this in the GFA
What's not to like ?

GBOA

The GFA isn't going to provide any answers. Look at the projects which have floundered recently (and which are arguably of far more significance to the island as a whole) such as the A5, and Narrow Water bridge. Millions down the tubes and nothing to show.

With half of the Executive in the north being anti-GFA, you're kidding yourself to expect that an all-Ireland transport museum, or even funding of an existing one, is likely to happen.

There is only one tourist attraction on the island and that's the Giant's Causeway.

dowlingm

eejoynt - perhaps in your rush to snark at my whereabouts you missed my mention of unicorns. Perhaps I should have made it more explicit but there's only so many times one can bring oneself to type the word "bondholders" (see wifi thread)

That said, the thing that Ireland trades on with tourists apart from natural beauty is history, so in theory putting money into a bona fide draw would be as valid as giving it to the IDA to throw at foreign tax-regime shopping corporations. Of course, the rub then would be to stop the new entity from blowing the acquisition budget on worldwide trips to "study other examples of transport museums" and whatnot.

If anything clearing out old papers from Connolly in a properly run independent archive might turn up some stuff CIE shouldn't have stuffed in random drawers, like that time they misplaced the details of the supporting structures of Broadmeadow viaduct.

eejoynt

As you say, you are dreaming of unicorns, or even of successful prosecutions for corruption or white collar crime...even rarer here

325man

Hi, can anyone tell me what has happened to 6101 to 6105 ????

Captain Chaos

325man wrote: »

Hi, can anyone tell me what has happened to 6101 to 6105 ????

3 of them are were scrapped. 1 is at Northwall and the other in Inchicore.

IrishRail Fanatic1987

Have they moved 6105 from North Wall? I know in a recent issue of the Irish Mail they saw Mark 3 coach at the paint spray in Inchicore can anyone shed some light on this too?

h.gricer

IrishRail Fanatic1987 wrote: »

Have they moved 6105 from North Wall?

No still there, in Dardinell sidings North Wall.

Regards
hg

Losty Dublin

h.gricer wrote: »

No still there, in Dardinell sidings North Wall.

Regards
hg

Hurrah, the mighty H Gricer! :):)

cbl593h

Report on WNXX (UK forum) that 14 mk3s stored at Inchicore have been cut, with the remaining coaches around the country to go soon.

end of the road

cbl593h wrote: »

Report on WNXX (UK forum) that 14 mk3s stored at Inchicore have been cut, with the remaining coaches around the country to go soon.

obviously their deliberate destruction has now been completed to a sufficient standard to justify cutting them up finally, poor old 2700s and 8200s watch out your next, then it will be the stored 201s

robclay26

Taken in Dundalk 26 July 2013.

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

obviously their deliberate destruction has now been completed to a sufficient standard to justify cutting them up finally, poor old 2700s and 8200s watch out your next, then it will be the stored 201s

At this stage I'd bet they would add 087, 225 and 230 to the scrap list if they could.

The 8200s should have been scrapped about 10 years ago though.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 8200s should have been scrapped about 10 years ago

the 8200s should never have been bought or at least sent back on a boat with return to sender, they were a shambles and a waste of money from the get go

Markcheese

Do they have much of a scrap value ?? By the time the actual cost of scrapping is taken In to account ...
Or is it IE staff who'd be doing nothing else otherwise who are doing it ...
Still find it hard to believe that there's no practical or even radical use for them.,

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

Do they have much of a scrap value ?? By the time the actual cost of scrapping is taken In to account ...

i don't know but i suppose it would just depend on the market value for any of the metals involved, so its possible they could get feck all for them

Markcheese wrote: »

is it IE staff who'd be doing nothing else otherwise who are doing it ...

no i believe scrapping is put out to tender these days, so following on from this i wonder do IE pay for them to take the carriges away or do the scrap merchants have to pay to buy the carriges?

Markcheese wrote: »

Still find it hard to believe that there's no practical or even radical use for them.

their was before their deliberate destruction, the hourly cork service instead of the mark 4s and enhancing the bellfast service to hourly.

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know but i suppose it would just depend on the market value for any of the metals involved, so its possible they could get feck all for them

no i believe scrapping is put out to tender these days, so following on from this i wonder do IE pay for them to take the carriges away or do the scrap merchants have to pay to buy the carriages?

The going rate is round about about €200 per tonne for steel. A Mark 3 weights about 33 tonnes; allow about a tonne or so for floors, windows and other fittings; do your sums from here. The bogies and some fittings might have a slightly higher value assuming a buyer is there for same; if not then they will be cut up as well.

The normal procedure is to ask for tenders for scrapping. Generally it's done on site and loaded onto trucks to cut costs but it's been known to be done off site as well. NIR scrapped their class 80s on and off site.

GBOA

The 450s were chopped in half on site before being taken to the scrapper for further dissection. Some photos are around of same. Think DCDR facebook page has some.

C4Kid

Just wondering has the RPSI expressed any interest in purchasing a set for preservation or do they just not have the resources for such a venture ?

As others have said hard to believe they were allowed get to that stage and pulled from service considering so many are still running in the UK.

Cookie_Monster

C4Kid wrote: »

Just wondering has the RPSI expressed any interest in purchasing a set for preservation or do they just not have the resources for such a venture ?

other priorities for their limited resources I'd imagine, plus a lack of storage space. They would need a lot of work put in to be even usable again given how long they were left to rot.

corktina

air conditioned air braked coaches are not a lot of use in preservation

yachtsman

The site, and sight, in Dundalk for daily commuters and Enterprise passengers is very negative for IE. Imagine Ryanair or Aer Lingus taxiing passengers on a daily basis past derelict dsintegrating aircraft with their logos fading into oblivion? A self respecting transporter would simply not let it happen. Theres obviously no brand pride.

GBOA

yachtsman wrote: »

Theres obviously no brand pride.

Not a problem, IÉ are onto a new brand now. Not related at all. No sir.

xtradel

If a person was to win the euromillions and approach IE, how much would they sell one single coach and would they sell to a private individual?