Ringfort Theory

cfuserkildare

Hi folks,

Thought this might be better as a seperate thread.


Has anybody got a viable theory as to why there are a bunch of raths almost in a row, well an arc really, this may also be something maybe not

53.425492,-6.610733

I was theorising whether or not the "PALE" may have been a copy of a previous structure, or at least idea.

Anybody cast an opinion?

slowburner

Perhaps they follow a ridge or some other type of elevated ground.

olly_mac

See Matthew Stout, "The Irish Ringfort", Four Courts Press.1997.

I don't agree fully with his analysis, but it will provoke some thought.

cfuserkildare

Hi Slowburner,

The forts are mostly on flat ground, no significant geography really.

They are not so much a cluster like you would get if they were related clans, more that they seem to be following some sort of specific shape.

It reminds me of the way the Romans built small forts at particular distances apart on Hadrians wall and Antonines wall in Scotland.

There is also some evidence that they carry on for some distance, unfortunately a few of them seem to have been flattened, only leaving faint marks only visible from the air.

cfuserkildare

Just had a thought,

Would these ringforts be at the side of a main thoroughfare, ie a roadway?

When I was down there today, I noticed that there seem to be a bunch of forts in a row, then another selection take off in another direction. South initially. Towards Celbridge?

Odd.

cfuserkildare

Anybody got any ideas?

bawn79

I know this is very lazy - but could you post a link on bing or google maps?
Its actually an interesting theory although ringforts do come in all shapes and sizes.
There is a conjoined double ring-fort to the north of the Galtees in Tipperary with a stream running through the middle, probably one of the most unusual I know of.

cfuserkildare

Hi bawn79,

I have at least 6 objects of interest mostly in a row starting from Rodanstown heading East-North-East.

These are definite sites.
53.417909,-6.644669
53.422333,-6.624455
53.432447,-6.596475
53.444935,-6.578751

Next are almost definites,
53.425428,-6.610851
53.427077,-6.558366

There are a hole load more but time is not my friend tonight.

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi bawn79,

I have at least 6 objects of interest mostly in a row starting from Rodanstown heading East-North-East.

These are definite sites.
53.417909,-6.644669
53.422333,-6.624455
53.432447,-6.596475
53.444935,-6.578751

Next are almost definites,
53.425428,-6.610851
53.427077,-6.558366

There are a hole load more but time is not my friend tonight.

In my opinion I'd fancy them to be a lot closer together if they were forming a defensive line. Those look like a fairly normal dispersal pattern to me.

Also defensive lines like the Black Pigs Dyke were constructed in Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pig%27s_Dyke
So more likely that a version of this would have been put in place (IMO).

How are these placed in relation to the Esker Riada? Perhaps they were like motorway service stations!
There was a great book written by Herman Geissel - was googling to try and link you a copy. Just discovered the author passed away in 2011 and the book was taken down.

cfuserkildare

Hi bawn79

Did a bit more digging and apparently the Esker Riada runs south of the Liffey,

Ie through Greenhills and Lucan.

But I do agree with the idea of stopping points or more likely they could have been places of safety in a generally rough or bandit hit areas.

slowburner

bawn79 wrote: »

In my opinion I'd fancy them to be a lot closer together if they were forming a defensive line. Those look like a fairly normal dispersal pattern to me.

Also defensive lines like the Black Pigs Dyke were constructed in Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pig%27s_Dyke
So more likely that a version of this would have been put in place (IMO).

How are these placed in relation to the Esker Riada? Perhaps they were like motorway service stations!
There was a great book written by Herman Geissel - was googling to try and link you a copy. Just discovered the author passed away in 2011 and the book was taken down.

I don't know. They do seem to form a pretty straight line.
I'm not too sure f this alignment is by chance, topography or if it indicates a relationship between the raths.
It would be interesting to see if any other features turned up which might indicate a link.

dublinviking

there are two more in the same direction just south of summerhill

53.475506,-6.729988

and this one

53.485141,-6.770723

and i wander if this is another one:

53.489986,-6.78857

one more here barely visible because of the clouds:

53.509438,-6.858433

and this forest is strangely circular

53.521992,-6.894486

and this is on the same diagonal line

53.521992,-6.894486

and what the hell is this on the same line:

53.533255,-6.929179

it looks too new and too perfect, but there are 3 circular structures one next to the other one only partially visible above the big circle

another possibly here:

53.536852,-6.982652

circular forest

53.56022,-6.99396

all these circular structures are together in a very small space. what is this?

53.567128,-6.985595
53.566691,-6.97787
53.567153,-6.970477
53.557448,-6.984988 is this a stone circle?
53.557212,-6.972591 if this is a structure it is huge.


they all seem to lead to here

53.562961,-7.010783

this is the beginning of a path through the bogs which is aligned exactly in the same direction as all these circular structures. i don't think this is coincidence. there is a road that goes through this gap in the bogs today. i wander if there was an old road there as well.

and here we have another circular structure at the other end of the gap in the bogs

53.577729,-7.07744

possibly here directly opposite on the other side of the road

53.583137,-7.067955

and here is something strange as well

53.588047,-7.06214

and a circular structure just above it

53.596711,-7.043734

then here we have two circular structures (intersected circles) and mounds

53.587206,-7.095111

then maybe this. the arc is too perfect to be natural

53.605901,-7.172767

then this:

53.597573,-7.151264

partially hidden by the clouds, but big perfect arc right next to this strange circular structure (well?)

53.598582,-7.156574

then there is something here

53.622245,-7.205606

and here

53.622544,-7.216549

and barely visible in the clouds we have this:

53.623883,-7.224702

still all on the same straight line

then we hit bad google map and we can see only big structures. here is one:

53.648606,-7.249273

one more

53.585525,-7.212966

and another two here

53.583818,-7.236976
53.585576,-7.24285

double circle here with a big arc to its right. is this the third outer circle partially preserved???

53.586175,-7.253289

another small one here and what looks like much bigger one next to it to the right

53.591843,-7.264164

one more here

53.586582,-7.293411

and here we have a line of circular structures very close together cutting across the main road line at 90 degrees angle:

53.578289,-7.293512
53.588563,-7.329277
53.593091,-7.33769
53.588315,-7.346166
53.585181,-7.351209
53.58406,-7.351295
53.578672,-7.355053
53.571524,-7.35462


when the line of forts reaches the lake it bends back to the right and then back up forming and arc:

53.568676,-7.349877
53.566121,-7.336744
53.566083,-7.347173
53.573034,-7.325548


here is one on the edge of the lake

53.579614,-7.379383

one here

53.584149,-7.376188

lots and lots of circular things here. lots of arcs which are too perfect

53.582105,-7.375379
53.584379,-7.383567
53.583793,-7.369534
53.586863,-7.384444
53.589837,-7.387374

so the road continues i the same direction just above lake Owel...the map gets really bad for a while so you can not see any smaller structures, but look at this:

53.620234,-7.448136

what is this?

once we get out of the google haze the line of ringforts continues following the same diagonal direction:

53.631356,-7.549799

and possibly here

53.637641,-7.554508
53.63572,-7.561427

we are now entering another gap between the bogs and half way through there is another circular structure:

53.647468,-7.592026

at the other end of the gap we have a cluster of circular structures:

53.656243,-7.628354
53.659511,-7.633251
53.65349,-7.63872
53.645961,-7.643744
53.645554,-7.651426
53.652663,-7.650522
53.644282,-7.662366
53.652841,-7.659448
53.658971,-7.654747

I think we might have found something here.

According to an entry in the Annals of the Four Masters for AD 123, there were five principal highways (Irish: slighe) leading to Tara (Irish: Teamhair) in Early Medieval Ireland. The entry in the Annals claims that these routes were 'discovered' at the birth of Conn of the Hundred Battles:
The night of Conn's birth were discovered five principal roads leading to Teamhair, which were never observed till then. These are their names: Slighe Asail, Slighe Midhluachra, Slighe Cualann, Slighe Mhór, Slighe Dala. Slighe Mhór is that called Eiscir Riada, i.e. the division line of Ireland into two parts, between Conn and Eoghan Mór.[9]
In reality, "the ancient road system (such as it was - there cannot have been a developed national system) fanned out not from Tara but from Dublin.".[7]

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

this could be one of the road going west from dublin.

by the way, did you notice how bad the google map becomes when you hit midlands?

Kicking Bird

I've attached below a section of Colm Ó Lochlainn's map of 'Roadways in Ancient Ireland',which shows the route of the Slí Mhór.I've highlighted two roads in particular which are in close proximity to the alignment of ringforts NE of Kilcock(represented by the bold yellow line just east of Enfield on the map).The road highlighted in blue was an important cross route(it crossed the Slí Mhór from north to south,and vice versa)and led directly to Tara.The road highlighted in red was a possible route to and from Dublin and it joins the cross route to Tara(blue road) at Cloncurry(Co.Kildare),which is a mere 9.5kms. due west of Rodanstown.So it seems we have two relatively important roads in close proximity to these ringforts which also have a direct link to the Slí Mhór.

Bawn79 mentioned Hermann Geissel's 'A Road on the Long Ridge' in an earlier post and this incidentally is where I came across Ó Lochlainn's map(I have a copy of the book myself).I've attached a link where a pdf of the publication can be downloaded for those who are interested:

http://www.tarataratara.net/resources/Tara_roads/East_West/Tara_Slige_Mhor.htm.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any known road in that area.

Unless I am looking at it wrong, or the road in question in not a known 1.

dublinviking

or the road in question in not a known 1

the alignment, especially with the path through the first bog is too perfect to be coincidental. but who knows.

cfuserkildare

Ahh,

I see what you mean, I was still thinking about the allignment that runs from ENE to WSW.

Yes that would also fit in with another site that I am looking at.

bawn79

dublinviking wrote: »

t
I think we might have found something here.



http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84448704&postcount=17

this could be one of the road going west from dublin.

by the way, did you notice how bad the google map becomes when you hit midlands?

Some way to be spending your saturday night but to see what was being mapped out I stuck your points on the map below.

https://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=208301446908880239080.0004e310829b5cdcb3034&msa=0&ll=53.59821,-7.459717&spn=0.456385,0.883026

Might be a good way to track and see yourself adding in other points etc.

slowburner

Great work!
Sure what else would you do on a Saturday night?

dublinviking

thanks for this. very interesting. it goes as a stright line to the first bogs and then we have a whole cluster behind it.

by the was not all ring walls are forts.

BBC Two - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble, Afghanistan
BBC iPlayer - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble: Peru

both show dry stone built animal enclosures identical to irish stone walled "ringforts". the nomads use them as permanent stations on flock migrations and pitch temporary settlements around them. very interesting.

also i will try to get something together about circular observatories made of stone found in serbia.

circle is the easiest shape to draw. you need two people and a rope.

baaba maal

Small point on the personnel requirements for these structures. I built a circular stone wall in my garden as a decorative thing/homage to the legacy of circular structures throughout our prehistory and I can assure you it only requires one person, a rope and a stick;)

Fascinating thread everybody well done on the legwork.

slowburner

dublinviking wrote: »

thanks for this. very interesting. it goes as a stright line to the first bogs and then we have a whole cluster behind it.

by the was not all ring walls are forts.

BBC Two - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble, Afghanistan
BBC iPlayer - Wild Shepherdess with Kate Humble: Peru

both show dry stone built animal enclosures identical to irish stone walled "ringforts". the nomads use them as permanent stations on flock migrations and pitch temporary settlements around them. very interesting.

also i will try to get something together about circular observatories made of stone found in serbia.

circle is the easiest shape to draw. you need two people and a rope.

It is important to bear in mind that not not every circular earthwork is classified as a ringfort.
A ringfort is a specific monument class.
They may be circular, plectrum shaped or sub-circular and must have a bank and external fosse to fall under this classification.
In most cases, there is a causeway of some description over the fosse, leading to the entrance.
There are two sub-classifications: the rath and the cashel. Raths generally have an earthen bank with an external fosse or a combination of earth and stone, while cashels have banks constructed of stone and an external fosse.
It is thought that bivallate or trivallate (two or three banks and fosses) ringforts were to demonstrate higher status.
Both date roughly to the later Iron Age/early Christian period.

A much broader class - the enclosure, refers to an area enclosed by a bank or fosse. The shape can be pretty much anything from sub-circular to rectilinear. It's a catch-all classification for earthworks that don't quite fit the ringfort bill.

BFDCH.

could they have been used one after another?

cfuserkildare

My interest was piqued by the fact that they are so close together.

If they were simply dwellings like extended families or suchlike then surely they would have been clustered around each other like the beginnings of a small hamlet?

Instead these are in a line like they were matching a trade route or known road (Riada) but they fall between 2 known roads ( too far north to be Esker Riada and too far south for the 1 from Swords heading west)

So I am a little bit stumped.

AngryHippie

Just a note on Placemark 25, Having worked this field a number of occasions, What does seem like a noticeable circular mound is not really anything perceptible on the ground.
It had an RC church ruin marked in there on the historic OS, but I think that may have been over at the location of the house to the West on the ortho.

Lots of other earthworks in the area though. Including Turgeisus fort a few miles to the North-West, past which the original road may well have passed...

I don't believe that the path indicated is necessarily correct either, considering the ground that is covered, I'd be pretty sure that the path would cross the now N52 at Caddagh Cross, and proceed directly to the river deel crossing point at drumcree. There are substantial old earthworks pretty regularly along that path, and there is documented battle (at least one, but much later). The land to the South West of Drumcree includes a large expanse of Bog (Mullacrooy) which would have been quite difficult to cross, as well as numerous hills further South West. Whereas the road from Delvin to Collinstown represents the high ground and clear access. a relatively straight travel path all the way to Castlepollard. The forts etc. to the South of this road seem to be on hilltops generally, and Turgeisius Fort located on top of Randoon, would overlook any existing roadway in the valley below. Ideal place to start robbing people and cutting off noses.....

cfuserkildare

Having had a good look at the sites laballed by Bawn79, I have to ask the question, why are the sites I have been looking at going in a direction that doesn't follow the R156.

These items are following a seperate route West-South-West.

A possible cross-link?

Short-cut maybe for those going from above Swords to Galway or Kerry perhaps?

dublinviking

who knows. there is definitely a cluster of circular things in the center of ireland to which this road leads. what is it?

just before the three lakes Owel, Derravaragh and Lene

cfuserkildare

Hey dublinviking,

Just had a look at the area you mentioned, and found that there are a good few items of interest on the other side of those lakes.

Perhaps this is a previously undiscovered or un-noted travel route?

Needs some more investigation.

dublinviking

there are. if you look at the map that bawn79 kindly made, you can see clusters both before the lakes and after with the "road" going through the bogs before and after through the only available route. i followed the same direction for a while after the second cluster and found few more circular structures continuing in the same direction. i hope others will find time to see where does this "road" lead to.

here is what i found

53.651671,-7.672344
53.656733,-7.674318
53.649802,-7.683527
53.655544,-7.696729
53.658933,-7.699019
53.661399,-7.713779
53.674621,-7.711054
53.678955,-7.705346
53.682539,-7.694573
53.66646,-7.736074
53.668214,-7.736374
53.679057,-7.726289
53.682818,-7.726825
53.680442,-7.754398
53.684712,-7.758776
53.683123,-7.799116 - isolated site below the bog but lots of sites above the bog:

53.695716,-7.706143
53.704887,-7.723843
53.710298,-7.711719
53.715073,-7.717773
53.711047,-7.752574
53.709091,-7.746953
53.710628,-7.782919

finishing with this:

53.748939,-7.755064 - what is this? its big.

53.711771,-7.833645
53.730055,-7.835229
53.738952,-7.868231

and that is it.

Kicking Bird

Just a guess,but this alignment of ringforts and enclosures to the NW may have some relationship to the Slíghe Assail(see the map below).The Slíghe Assail travelled from east to west across the country and led one to and from the royal site of Rathcroghan.

Some of the coordinates which dublinviking gave above((i)53.66646,-7.736074-Ardagh,(ii)53.674621,-7.711054,(iii)53.678955,-7.705346,etc.)would appear to sit alongside a route which travelled northwestward from Uisneach(ancient ceremonial site)where it joined the Slíghe Assail close to Longford.

Cfuser wondered whether there was a route west of Lough Ennell(southwest of Lough Owel)given the significant number of ringforts and enclosures in this area - these may have had some relationship to this route to and from Uisneach.

slowburner

dublinviking wrote: »

53.748939,-7.755064 - what is this? its big.

Early C19th landscaping - almost certainly a walled garden.
It was associated with Carrickglass House and Demesne.
By 1860 (approx.), there is a pump marked within the boundary and Carrickglass house has become a gasworks!

cfuserkildare

Right,

Now we seem to have a slight issue here.

The items I am looking at run from around Rush to Ennis as a plotting aid.

The objects noted by Bawn79 run approximately from Dublin to Longford, perhaps further.

These are going in the wrong direction altogether.

This is why I think it may be something previously missed or ignored. Not a road that has been known about for many years.

randomperson12

ive noticed that some of the ringforts in my area if you loook at them on a map you can draw a straight line from one to another

could be some alignemt showing some constellation or for soltices etc. i found a a crop mark on google maps and it has marks and a face on the ground that looks like a cow i then looked at bing maps and half of it was plowed over with corn but i could still see some of the marks of it itsnot marked on the gis website that shows all the archaeolgy hotspots

randomperson12

i obviously think that fairys could be real possibly but probaly not real
ringforts etc but also people could have made up the storys so people wodnt destroy history
also some of those old stories where probaly true because people have been living in forts until late 18oos possibly

cfuserkildare

randomperson12 wrote: »

ive noticed that some of the ringforts in my area if you loook at them on a map you can draw a straight line from one to another

could be some alignemt showing some constellation or for soltices etc. i found a a crop mark on google maps and it has marks and a face on the ground that looks like a cow i then looked at bing maps and half of it was plowed over with corn but i could still see some of the marks of it itsnot marked on the gis website that shows all the archaeolgy hotspots

Hey mate,

Where would your observations be based?

I have been researching a similar event for a while now and would be interested to know if yours and mine are the same or more likely linked somehow.

Cheers.

randomperson12

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey mate,

Where would your observations be based?

I have been researching a similar event for a while now and would be interested to know if yours and mine are the same or more likely linked somehow.

Cheers.

its around the eyrecourt area county galway
most of these forts are quarter a mile from each other and alot of them are interesting i matched them up before and drawing a line from one to another i ended up with an arrow shaped alignemt but ive since found tones more if found seven of them in random places and some of them are stragetically placed theres also one under the road witch you can see over the ditch or trough a fence even on the old maps the road goes trough it it could be a acient toll road. theres also one called lisnarabia if you cut it in half its lisn arabia wich is interesting the names seem to be old irish also there would be alot of artefacts in them because theres only one fulacht fia and rigbarrow in the area it would be interesting to find out about similar things because there could be alot around

cfuserkildare

Hi randomperson12,

The earthworks I am looking at are ranging South West from around Fairyhouse almost all the way to Ennis.
There are a few gaps, but definitely a route if some sort.

randomperson12

ill check and see if my section join up with the one youre checking

cfuserkildare

Cool,

That would be great, I am sure that they are 1 of the original Roads across Ireland.
They pre-date Christianity, so must relate to something much older.

bawn79

Cfuser / randomperson - if you don't mind I think there was a thread for this already that cfuser started. Its not really related to archaeoastronomy in Ireland.

Thanks

randomperson12

k

randomperson12

theres one very old road through a ringfort plus i checked my section one doesnt connect up to cfusers one a such but theres alot of old toghers under the shannon

the ringforts is kind of to do with this fourom but i just trying to find out more k about what he said but i also noticed the rock in my field is kind of aligning with the forts

cfuserkildare

bawn79 wrote: »

Cfuser / randomperson - if you don't mind I think there was a thread for this already that cfuser started. Its not really related to archaeoastronomy in Ireland.

Thanks

bawn79,

You are right it is kinda a side-thread/previous thread.

If mods want to move this or start it as a new thread I would have no objections.

Cheers.