The "Right-to-die" argument

NIMAN

Was having a debate about this the other day and how a loved one may end up in prison if they helped you end your life.

Got me thinking, if the person knows they have an illness that is going to make their life unbearable, why wait until they can't end their own life, putting the pressure on their relatives.

Why not end their own life while they still have the physical capacity to do so, thus doing away with the possibility of a loved one having the difficult decision to make?

kneemos

I can tell you're the caring type.

VanishingActs

I'd imagine some people do.

I assume a lot of people would like to enjoy a decent quality of life with their family while they have the chance. Also most illnesses aren't that predictable. You might get 10 or 15 or 20 years of ok health before becoming drastically ill, it'd be fairly hard to throw all of that away...

NIMAN

No don't get me wrong I am not advocating this way out, I know its preferable to spend as long as you possibly can with someone.

But we were having a discussion about it, and this point came up.

kneemos

People have a will to live and adapt to whatever circumstances they find themselves in.

kylith

I was having a similar discussion recently and my parent's wondered why they feel like they have to make a fuss of wanting to go to Switzerland, instead of just quietly getting on a plane. This makes assumptions that a terminally ill person is able to make arrangements and to travel by themselves so that their family won't be questioned on return home. "So you took your terminally ill mother on holiday to Switzerland, did you? And she just happened to drop dead, did she?" My point that they wanted permission to travel to both set precedent and to indemnify their family from prosecution was poo-poo'd as 'a lot of fuss', 'attention seeking', and 'selfish'. Once again the Irish way is to slip off and do it in secret, like it was something shameful, and not to challenge the status quo even though everyone knows that the status quo needs challenging.

KDII

The time frame between feeling well enough to want to keep living and being well enough to end your own life to not being physically able to end your life and feeling as though that stage has come is in reality likely shorter than one would think.

Also many progressive illnesses don't follow a linear path of decline. An infection and related knock-on effects could move quality of life from 50% down to 30%.

RachaelVO

Most of us want to go out the same way we came in, kicking and screaming.

If you know you've got a terminal disease it's a pretty tough thing to decide to end your life while you still still some quality in front of you. While there's life there's hope, and if changes in treatment come along if your dead you can't avail of them now can you.

dathi

kylith wrote: »

I was having a similar discussion recently and my parent's wondered why they feel like they have to make a fuss of wanting to go to Switzerland, instead of just quietly getting on a plane. This makes assumptions that a terminally ill person is able to make arrangements and to travel by themselves so that their family won't be questioned on return home. "So you took your terminally ill mother on holiday to Switzerland, did you? And she just happened to drop dead, did she?" My point that they wanted permission to travel to both set precedent and to indemnify their family from prosecution was poo-poo'd as 'a lot of fuss', 'attention seeking', and 'selfish'. Once again the Irish way is to slip off and do it in secret, like it was something shameful, and not to challenge the status quo even though everyone knows that the status quo needs challenging.

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

ThreeBlindMice

If someone is artificially kept alive just for the sake of it I could not see a problem with the right to die argument.

My mother suffered a lingering five years with a severe stroke in a nursing home, it was a relief when she passed. I would not have had a problem with the doctors pulling the pipe from her artificial food pump five years ago when she initially had the stroke.

I would see an issue if this was abused and people wanted to have their lives terminated just for the sake of it.

December2012

The problem occurs when the individual who wants to die is so sick but is unable to take their own life, usually due to the illness.

My understanding in some of the high profile cases is not that the person wants to die right now, but they have a degenerative disease and they know that they will only get worse, and they want to be able to die with dignity when the time comes and without repercussion.

It is something that I would welcome. It is a hard enough decision to make to discontinue medical treatment and effectively allowing a person to die. I took some comfort from the fact that my loved one knew the end was near and wanted it to come.

sydthebeat

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

Jesus, thats such a perversion of that case its insulting.

If someone has a disability that prevents them from taking their own life, then the question is does the law discriminate against them.

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

GarIT

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

I would see an issue if this was abused and people wanted to have their lives terminated just for the sake of it.

If someone does not want to live and they are mentally sound why do we force them to live?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

You could not have more misrepresented that case if you tried.:mad:

Stereomaniac

If I was looking to end my life in that situation, I wouldn't want my partner to "do the honours."

sydthebeat

Stereomaniac wrote: »

If I was looking to end my life in that situation, I wouldn't want my partner to "do the honours."

if you wanted to end your life but physically couldn't, WHO would you wish ' did the honours' ??

kylith

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

That case is about a woman who wishes to commit suicide and has a husband who is willing to help her do it. You have completely misrepresented the case. My point stands; people would ask why this couple didn't just arrange something in private. They wished to set precedent and to indemnify her husband against prosecution for helping her to do something that isn't even a crime (suicide was decriminalised in 1993).

jigglypuffstuff

sydthebeat wrote: »

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

Define dignity.....

sydthebeat

pone2012 wrote: »

Define dignity.....

Why?

jigglypuffstuff

Well you said everyone deserves the right to die with dignity.

Im curious as to what your definition of dignity is in this context?

19543261

GarIT wrote: »

If someone does not want to live and they are mentally sound why do we force them to live?

The argument is that no single mental state is permanent, so feelings that lead most to ending their life are temporary (excluding terminal illness).

I'm in two minds about this; perhaps thats the case, but if we call into question our experience through a depressive episode, for example, any emotional state can be said to be fickle; and suddenly things start losing meaning.

sydthebeat

pone2012 wrote: »

Well you said everyone deserves the right to die with dignity.

Im curious as to what your definition of dignity is in this context?

Go check any of the myriad of 'right to die with dignity' organisations out there for a description of dignity.

I fail to see what kind of point you are trying to make..... Do you think people shouldn't be able to choose the manner in which they die?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZnfC-V1SY

Essential viewing for anyone with a viewpoint on the matter - warning, gets about poignant from the 52 minute mark.

Big C

I have looked at many debates on this subject. Never ceases to amaze me some of the comments, some very valid points and some pure sh*t. I am probably going to end up in Switzerland or the local river but would much rather end my days at home with family /friends. Are any other people here in the same position ? I will keep watching and am happy to answer any one's queries

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Big C wrote: »

I have looked at many debates on this subject. Never ceases to amaze me some of the comments, some very valid points and some pure sh*t. I am probably going to end up in Switzerland or the local river but would much rather end my days at home with family /friends. Are any other people here in the same position ? I will keep watching and am happy to answer any one's queries

The main one being: why so? I mean, not ending your life in the company of your friends, but why end your life?

Big C

Progressive MS, will probably end up bed ridden with only thing working is my brain. I definitely don''t want to be there for any thing up to 20 years. It has been reported that a person was in the last stages of MS, this is wrong, unlike many conditions that end life ( ie cancer etc) people dont die of MS, people have MS when they die.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Big C wrote: »

Progressive MS, will probably end up bed ridden with only thing working is my brain. I definitely don''t want to be there for any thing up to 20 years. It has been reported that a person was in the last stages of MS, this is wrong, unlike many conditions that end life ( ie cancer etc) people dont die of MS, people have MS when they die.

****, sorry to hear that. Hope it all goes as well as can be expected. Certainly answers the question abotu how to define "dignity".

If I ever find myself in the same positon, I'm pretty sure I'd be of the exact same mindset.

Wabbit Ears

The will to live really is amazing but Its a little odd that people can't start planning their death for a time of their choosing when they are either terminally ill or of an age where life has become a horrific wait to die.

I don't see how this is suicide in anyway nor do I see how it is anything but the greatest show of love and commitment for your partner to be involved in this process.

Death could be a joyous occasion, a glorious final chapter, if we just accepted the fact that you can and should be allowed to choose to do it on your own terms.

TheGunns

It's the hardest thing to see someone who is visibly in pain and dying but I don't think I'd want them gone any sooner than they have to be

December2012

TheGunns wrote: »

It's the hardest thing to see someone who is visibly in pain and dying but I don't think I'd want them gone any sooner than they have to be

Do you not see the selfishness in that if the person dying wants to die?

TheGunns

December2012 wrote: »

Do you not see the selfishness in that if the person dying wants to die?

I never said they can't? I said personally I would want them to stay alive. I also think everyone can choose on their own as it wouldn't be my decision to make, I'm very much pro choice on most issues.

Anybody that chooses to keep someone here who has no chance of survival or of a better life is extraordinarily selfish. We choose to kill animals if they become injured or diseased or what have you, but we don't afford the same rights to people? Where is the sense in that!

If I had to choose between a life with an illness or condition that potentially made being alive a fate worse than death, then I would definitely choose the option to end it surrounded by those I love.

Big C

TheGunns wrote: »

I never said they can't? I said personally I would want them to stay alive. I also think everyone can choose on their own as it wouldn't be my decision to make, I'm very much pro choice on most issues.

I would hope my family/friends would also like to see me around as long as possible, but I also hope they respect my decesion

P_1

December2012 wrote: »

Do you not see the selfishness in that if the person dying wants to die?

How is it selfish to choose when you go rather than have it chosen for you? Particularly if you are in agony every day

December2012

P_1 wrote: »

How is it selfish to choose when you go rather than have it chosen for you? Particularly if you are in agony every day

Did you read my posts?

I think it is selfish to keep a loved one alive for our means.

I have first hand experience of watching a loved one with terminal sickness dying agonisingly, knowing they were dying and wanting the release, begging to die.

I wish there was a legal mechanism whereby he could have been freed from his painful existence when he was ready to go.

I think that a person of sound mind should be able to provide a directive by which, when the time comes, they can die peacefully and out of pain.

stefan idiot jones

My Mother and my Aunt made a pact with each other years ago that if either of them had no quality of life due to illness, dementia etc. then the other would pull the plug on them.

It is great in theory but knowing the both of them very well and how close they are to each other, that if and when the time comes (hopefully never) I don't think that either of them would actually go through with it.

It must be an incredibly tough decision.

Lawrence1895

Let's put it this way, I had no choice when I was born, so I want to have the choice when I'm supposed to die...and being attached to machines, not being able to breathe, eat or drink on my own, is certainly no quality of life, if it ever comes that far, I rather leave this world.

Napper Hawkins

Loved one wants to die so they don't have to suffer anymore? You're god damn right I'm helping them and they can go right ahead and lock me up all they want.

December2012

TheGunns wrote: »

I never said they can't? I said personally I would want them to stay alive. I also think everyone can choose on their own as it wouldn't be my decision to make, I'm very much pro choice on most issues.

I suppose I am in such a mindset that staying alive in that case = pain.

Of course I wish, as did my loved one, that they were not in that situation at all, but the long term illness was such a part of our lives for so long.

I wish he had never got sick at all.

dathi

sydthebeat wrote: »

Jesus, thats such a perversion of that case its insulting.

If someone has a disability that prevents them from taking their own life, then the question is does the law discriminate against them.

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

the courts have already answered that question they said that it was not discrimination and they could not let a person assist with a suicide as it amounted to that person committing murder you can dress it up in any language you like assisting suicide, death with dignity, but at the end of the day if you intentionally kill another person you have committed murder

seamus

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Loved one wants to die so they don't have to suffer anymore? You're god damn right I'm helping them and they can go right ahead and lock me up all they want.

The issue here of course is that I would rather die writhing in agony than have any member of my family risk a spell in jail for helping me to die.

This is something I've become more and more relaxed on as time has gone by. As taboo as it is to say it, I've seen families torn apart by a family member's seemingly incurable depression, then brought back together and brought into a much more peaceful place when that person makes their last suicide attempt.

As much as the "right to die" argument hovers around those who are terminally ill, there is a wider debate over the individual's right to choose the time and place of their death, whatever their physical or mental state.

Would the world not be a much nicer place if there wasn't this general taboo about death, this collective denial that death actually happens, which goes as far as to cause us do everything we can to keep someone alive even when they have no real life to speak of?

If we spoke about it in public, discussed death with the same inevitability that we talk about falling in love or having children, wouldn't we find it so much easier to accept it, and wouldn't those who are suffering find it much easier to reach out to their loved ones when they decide they want to die?

I imagine for many people who've had a loved one commit suicide, what's as hard, if not harder than the actual death, is the fact that they didn't get to say goodbye properly. If this stigma around death didn't exist, perhaps many would be spared this pain.

sydthebeat

dathi wrote: »

the courts have already answered that question they said that it was not discrimination and they could not let a person assist with a suicide as it amounted to that person committing murder you can dress it up in any language you like assisting suicide, death with dignity, but at the end of the day if you intentionally kill another person you have committed murder

WOW !!!!

now you are perverting the decision which the court came to.

to help you out heres the judgement
please point out to us where exactly it finds assisted suicide was equated to murder??

The findings are very exact and specific, and are based on whether there was a constitutional right to commit suicide, which they found didnt exist.

This decision, of course, doesn't mean that the right shouldn't exist.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Big C

darced wrote: »

Pretty shocking thing to do putting a relation in that position,sick actually.

If you want to take your own life due to a progressive illness set a reasonable date and do it yourself even if the illness hasnt progressed as far as predicted.

I'd say most would not have the bottle for it and prefer to pass the buck to their nearest and dearest.

Good advice, doh
Today I can do it, I can physically take my own life, Tomorrow because of the uncertainty of the progression of MS I may not be able to do anything, so there,s the problem. Should I do it today or take a chance. What do you think would be a resonable date for me darc ?

As for having the bottle ? well when/if the day comes that I can't do t myself, if you push me in the wheelchair to the river, I will tip myself in.

shane9689

im a fan of the Japanese honour system among its samurais and generals, where they stab themselves before being decapitated as sort of a way to regain their dignity before death

Big C

Nice contribution to the discussion Shane, I never thought of that option.

General General

I don't think too many people think: I could top myself now... but I think I'll wait 'til tomorrow when I won't be able to do it, just so I can drop my loved one in the sh!t.

billion dollar baby

Without wanting to take sides one way or the other my biggest question is this.
Would you really want to ask a family member to do something that they could likely end up in prison for and/or be stuck with the guilt for the rest of their lives?

Such a difficult and complex topic

Frito

sydthebeat wrote: »

WOW !!!!

now you are perverting the decision which the court came to.

to help you out heres the judgement
The findings are very exact and specific, and are based on whether there was a constitutional right to commit suicide, which they found didnt exist.

This decision, of course, doesn't mean that the right shouldn't exist.

This is the crux of the argument, there is no constitutional right to die (I mean by your own choosing vs natural biological event) I agree until there is a right to die, the courts cannot consider discrimination.

dathi

sydthebeat wrote: »

WOW !!!!

now you are perverting the decision which the court came to.

to help you out heres the judgement
please point out to us where exactly it finds assisted suicide was equated to murder??

The findings are very exact and specific, and are based on whether there was a constitutional right to commit suicide, which they found didnt exist.

This decision, of course, doesn't mean that the right shouldn't exist.

perhaps you should read the criminal law suicide act 1993 section 3

john_cappa

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Death could be a joyous occasion, a glorious final chapter, if we just accepted the fact that you can and should be allowed to choose to do it on your own terms.

I suppose our instinct (and social conditioning) is to live and survive as long as possible regardless of quality of life.

Choosing when you die is the ultimate of choices I suppose. I agree 100% with what you said.