The "Right-to-die" argument

NIMAN · 21-07-2013 10:02AM #1

Was having a debate about this the other day and how a loved one may end up in prison if they helped you end your life.

Got me thinking, if the person knows they have an illness that is going to make their life unbearable, why wait until they can't end their own life, putting the pressure on their relatives.

Why not end their own life while they still have the physical capacity to do so, thus doing away with the possibility of a loved one having the difficult decision to make?

kneemos · 21-07-2013 10:05AM

I can tell you're the caring type.

VanishingActs · 21-07-2013 10:07AM

I'd imagine some people do.

I assume a lot of people would like to enjoy a decent quality of life with their family while they have the chance. Also most illnesses aren't that predictable. You might get 10 or 15 or 20 years of ok health before becoming drastically ill, it'd be fairly hard to throw all of that away...

NIMAN · 21-07-2013 10:08AM

No don't get me wrong I am not advocating this way out, I know its preferable to spend as long as you possibly can with someone.

But we were having a discussion about it, and this point came up.

kneemos · 21-07-2013 10:13AM

People have a will to live and adapt to whatever circumstances they find themselves in.

kylith · 21-07-2013 10:18AM

I was having a similar discussion recently and my parent's wondered why they feel like they have to make a fuss of wanting to go to Switzerland, instead of just quietly getting on a plane. This makes assumptions that a terminally ill person is able to make arrangements and to travel by themselves so that their family won't be questioned on return home. "So you took your terminally ill mother on holiday to Switzerland, did you? And she just happened to drop dead, did she?" My point that they wanted permission to travel to both set precedent and to indemnify their family from prosecution was poo-poo'd as 'a lot of fuss', 'attention seeking', and 'selfish'. Once again the Irish way is to slip off and do it in secret, like it was something shameful, and not to challenge the status quo even though everyone knows that the status quo needs challenging.

KDII · 21-07-2013 10:28AM

The time frame between feeling well enough to want to keep living and being well enough to end your own life to not being physically able to end your life and feeling as though that stage has come is in reality likely shorter than one would think.

Also many progressive illnesses don't follow a linear path of decline. An infection and related knock-on effects could move quality of life from 50% down to 30%.

RachaelVO · 21-07-2013 10:49AM

Most of us want to go out the same way we came in, kicking and screaming.

If you know you've got a terminal disease it's a pretty tough thing to decide to end your life while you still still some quality in front of you. While there's life there's hope, and if changes in treatment come along if your dead you can't avail of them now can you.

dathi · 21-07-2013 10:59AM

kylith wrote: »

I was having a similar discussion recently and my parent's wondered why they feel like they have to make a fuss of wanting to go to Switzerland, instead of just quietly getting on a plane. This makes assumptions that a terminally ill person is able to make arrangements and to travel by themselves so that their family won't be questioned on return home. "So you took your terminally ill mother on holiday to Switzerland, did you? And she just happened to drop dead, did she?" My point that they wanted permission to travel to both set precedent and to indemnify their family from prosecution was poo-poo'd as 'a lot of fuss', 'attention seeking', and 'selfish'. Once again the Irish way is to slip off and do it in secret, like it was something shameful, and not to challenge the status quo even though everyone knows that the status quo needs challenging.

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

ThreeBlindMice · 21-07-2013 11:01AM

If someone is artificially kept alive just for the sake of it I could not see a problem with the right to die argument.

My mother suffered a lingering five years with a severe stroke in a nursing home, it was a relief when she passed. I would not have had a problem with the doctors pulling the pipe from her artificial food pump five years ago when she initially had the stroke.

I would see an issue if this was abused and people wanted to have their lives terminated just for the sake of it.

December2012 · 21-07-2013 11:03AM

The problem occurs when the individual who wants to die is so sick but is unable to take their own life, usually due to the illness.

My understanding in some of the high profile cases is not that the person wants to die right now, but they have a degenerative disease and they know that they will only get worse, and they want to be able to die with dignity when the time comes and without repercussion.

It is something that I would welcome. It is a hard enough decision to make to discontinue medical treatment and effectively allowing a person to die. I took some comfort from the fact that my loved one knew the end was near and wanted it to come.

sydthebeat · 21-07-2013 11:05AM

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

Jesus, thats such a perversion of that case its insulting.

If someone has a disability that prevents them from taking their own life, then the question is does the law discriminate against them.

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

GarIT · 21-07-2013 11:08AM

ThreeBlindMice wrote: »

I would see an issue if this was abused and people wanted to have their lives terminated just for the sake of it.

If someone does not want to live and they are mentally sound why do we force them to live?

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 21-07-2013 11:10AM

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

You could not have more misrepresented that case if you tried.:mad:

Stereomaniac · 21-07-2013 11:16AM

If I was looking to end my life in that situation, I wouldn't want my partner to "do the honours."

sydthebeat · 21-07-2013 11:18AM

Stereomaniac wrote: »

If I was looking to end my life in that situation, I wouldn't want my partner to "do the honours."

if you wanted to end your life but physically couldn't, WHO would you wish ' did the honours' ??

kylith · 21-07-2013 11:19AM

dathi wrote: »

if you are talking about the recent court case they were not looking for permission to travel they were looking for for the courts consent for the husband to murder his wife with no repercussions to him.

That case is about a woman who wishes to commit suicide and has a husband who is willing to help her do it. You have completely misrepresented the case. My point stands; people would ask why this couple didn't just arrange something in private. They wished to set precedent and to indemnify her husband against prosecution for helping her to do something that isn't even a crime (suicide was decriminalised in 1993).

jigglypuffstuff · 21-07-2013 11:24AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Everyone should have the right to die with dignity.

Define dignity.....

sydthebeat · 21-07-2013 11:29AM

pone2012 wrote: »

Define dignity.....

Why?

jigglypuffstuff · 21-07-2013 11:36AM

Well you said everyone deserves the right to die with dignity.

Im curious as to what your definition of dignity is in this context?

21-07-2013 11:41AM

GarIT wrote: »

If someone does not want to live and they are mentally sound why do we force them to live?

The argument is that no single mental state is permanent, so feelings that lead most to ending their life are temporary (excluding terminal illness).

I'm in two minds about this; perhaps thats the case, but if we call into question our experience through a depressive episode, for example, any emotional state can be said to be fickle; and suddenly things start losing meaning.

sydthebeat · 21-07-2013 11:54AM

pone2012 wrote: »

Well you said everyone deserves the right to die with dignity.

Im curious as to what your definition of dignity is in this context?

Go check any of the myriad of 'right to die with dignity' organisations out there for a description of dignity.

I fail to see what kind of point you are trying to make..... Do you think people shouldn't be able to choose the manner in which they die?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-07-2013 11:56AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZnfC-V1SY

Essential viewing for anyone with a viewpoint on the matter - warning, gets about poignant from the 52 minute mark.

Big C · 21-07-2013 11:58AM

I have looked at many debates on this subject. Never ceases to amaze me some of the comments, some very valid points and some pure sh*t. I am probably going to end up in Switzerland or the local river but would much rather end my days at home with family /friends. Are any other people here in the same position ? I will keep watching and am happy to answer any one's queries

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-07-2013 12:01PM

Big C wrote: »

I have looked at many debates on this subject. Never ceases to amaze me some of the comments, some very valid points and some pure sh*t. I am probably going to end up in Switzerland or the local river but would much rather end my days at home with family /friends. Are any other people here in the same position ? I will keep watching and am happy to answer any one's queries

The main one being: why so? I mean, not ending your life in the company of your friends, but why end your life?

Big C · 21-07-2013 12:10PM

Progressive MS, will probably end up bed ridden with only thing working is my brain. I definitely don''t want to be there for any thing up to 20 years. It has been reported that a person was in the last stages of MS, this is wrong, unlike many conditions that end life ( ie cancer etc) people dont die of MS, people have MS when they die.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-07-2013 12:16PM

Big C wrote: »

Progressive MS, will probably end up bed ridden with only thing working is my brain. I definitely don''t want to be there for any thing up to 20 years. It has been reported that a person was in the last stages of MS, this is wrong, unlike many conditions that end life ( ie cancer etc) people dont die of MS, people have MS when they die.

****, sorry to hear that. Hope it all goes as well as can be expected. Certainly answers the question abotu how to define "dignity".

If I ever find myself in the same positon, I'm pretty sure I'd be of the exact same mindset.

Wabbit Ears · 21-07-2013 01:06PM

The will to live really is amazing but Its a little odd that people can't start planning their death for a time of their choosing when they are either terminally ill or of an age where life has become a horrific wait to die.

I don't see how this is suicide in anyway nor do I see how it is anything but the greatest show of love and commitment for your partner to be involved in this process.

Death could be a joyous occasion, a glorious final chapter, if we just accepted the fact that you can and should be allowed to choose to do it on your own terms.

TheGunns · 21-07-2013 01:47PM

It's the hardest thing to see someone who is visibly in pain and dying but I don't think I'd want them gone any sooner than they have to be

December2012 · 21-07-2013 02:01PM

TheGunns wrote: »

It's the hardest thing to see someone who is visibly in pain and dying but I don't think I'd want them gone any sooner than they have to be

Do you not see the selfishness in that if the person dying wants to die?

TheGunns · 21-07-2013 02:28PM

December2012 wrote: »

Do you not see the selfishness in that if the person dying wants to die?

I never said they can't? I said personally I would want them to stay alive. I also think everyone can choose on their own as it wouldn't be my decision to make, I'm very much pro choice on most issues.

The "Right-to-die" argument

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