one tank two pumped gravity fed showers

cluelez

hi, how can I make it to work without a danger of running out of water in the tank?

Robbie.G

cluelez wrote: »

hi, how can I make it to work without a danger of running out of water in the tank?

What showers and what capacity of tank.If you are thinking electric showers there has to be an interlock on them so only 1 shower can work at anytime

cluelez

Robbie.G wrote: »

What showers and what capacity of tank.If you are thinking electric showers there has to be an interlock on them so only 1 shower can work at anytime

two 9.5kW triton pumped showers. Capacity of the tank (I need to check, about 60cm by 90cm or so)

Robbie.G

cluelez wrote: »

two 9.5kW triton pumped showers. Capacity of the tank (I need to check, about 60cm by 90cm or so)

That tank has ample capacity but as I posted only 1 triton shower can be used at a time(its a esb reg)

shane0007

If 2 9.5kw showers are run at the same time you will trip the main fuse coming into the house.
A = P / V
A = 19,000 / 230
A = 82.6 Amps

Main fuse into house is 63 amps. 1 shower would be 41.3 amps so this is acceptable but two at the same time will overload the circuit.

You will require an auto switchover device, I can't think of the correct name for it, but it basically only allows one shower to come on at any given time. The first being switched on had priority.

cluelez

Robbie.G wrote: »

What showers and what capacity of tank.If you are thinking electric showers there has to be an interlock on them so only 1 shower can work at anytime

Robbie.G
Do you mean plumbing or electrical interlock?
Do you know the exact name of it or where can I purchase it (link would be appreciated).

cluelez

shane0007 wrote: »

If 2 9.5kw showers are run at the same time you will trip the main fuse coming into the house.
A = P / V
A = 19,000 / 230
A = 82.6 Amps

Main fuse into house is 63 amps. 1 shower would be 41.3 amps so this is acceptable but two at the same time will overload the circuit.

You will require an auto switchover device, I can't think of the correct name for it, but it basically only allows one shower to come on at any given time. The first being switched on had priority.

thanks Shane007, yep I agree that I need such a device, if you know the correct name for it please post it here.

LIFFY FISHING

cluelez wrote: »

thanks Shane007, yep I agree that I need such a device, if you know the correct name for it please post it here.

Priority switch/ switching relay, common enough , ask in any electrical suppliers & tell them what its for.

shane0007

cluelez wrote: »

thanks Shane007, yep I agree that I need such a device, if you know the correct name for it please post it here.

You must get a qualified electrician to carry out the works in the fuse board.

TheBody

shane0007 wrote: »

You must get a qualified electrician to carry out the works in the fuse board.

This times 100. Your not talking about putting a plug on a kettle here.

dazed+confused

+1 on post above, this job can be awkward enough as the cables are enormous and the current you're dealing with is more than everything else in the house combined.

If you had two pumped showers (without instantaneous heaters) you can prevent them from draining your tank by installing two ball cocks in parallel ie. install an additonal one next to the existing ballcock.

cluelez

dazed+confused wrote: »

+1 on post above, this job can be awkward enough as the cables are enormous and the current you're dealing with is more than everything else in the house combined.

If you had two pumped showers (without instantaneous heaters) you can prevent them from draining your tank by installing two ball cocks in parallel ie. install an additonal one next to the existing ballcock.

installing additional ball cock, does it require additional pipe for additional water supply?

Yes, I agree with this: (without simultaneous heaters), which basically means no two working at the same time. Is this what you meant?

dazed+confused

cluelez wrote: »

installing additional ball cock, does it require additional pipe for additional water supply?

No, it's like filling the bath with two hot taps instead of one. The primary limiting factor on the speed at which the ballcock fills our tank is the size of the outlet on the ball cock, not the size of the pipe feeding it.

cluelez

shane0007 wrote: »

You must get a qualified electrician to carry out the works in the fuse board.

Oh, I already completed works on one shower.

Installed:

40amp RCBO
45amp pull cord switch / MK DP isolation switch (rated at 45A per pole).
13 meters 10sq earthed cable
9.5kWh pumped shower

dazed+confused

cluelez wrote: »

Oh, I already completed works on one shower.

Installed:

40amp RCBO
45amp pull cord switch
13 meters 10sq earthed cable
9.5kWh pumped shower

I could list every part that is installed in my car, but I didn't spend four years learning how to install them correctly.

cluelez

dazed+confused wrote: »

No, it's like filling the bath with two hot taps instead of one. The primary limiting factor on the speed at which the ballcock fills our tank is the size of the outlet on the ball cock, not the size of the pipe feeding it.

So it will stay with the same mains pipe and I will have to add sort of Y type or F type part to separate the pipe for additional ball cock?

cluelez

dazed+confused wrote: »

I could list every part that is installed in my car, but I didn't spend four years learning how to install them correctly.

Okay, everything works. will I post pictures to show my own work?

It's not my fault that I learned how to distinguish between + / - / earth
I used common sense and knowledge from my life to apply to this project. I have also repaired my washing machine, dishwasher. Installed timers and lights around the place. I worked on electrical systems in Germany as person who simply holds the box full of parts and watch what the electrician does and ask many questions, after couple of days I did few installations on my own and electrician said that these makes sense.

Plumber was clueless about the electrical connections and I now I'm confident that I can do plumbing myself.

shane0007

cluelez wrote: »

Oh, I already completed works on one shower.

Installed:

40amp RCBO
45amp pull cord switch
13 meters 10sq earthed cable
9.5kWh pumped shower

40 amp RCBO is for an 8.5kw shower not a 9.5kw one.
Why are you willing to risk lives?
0.5 amps travelling through your body for 0.2 secs will kill you.

cluelez

dazed+confused wrote: »

I could list every part that is installed in my car, but I didn't spend four years learning how to install them correctly.

I'm handy on cars too. I just like it.

cluelez

shane0007 wrote: »

40 amp RCBO is for an 8.5kw shower not a 9.5kw one.
Why are you willing to risk lives?
0.5 amps travelling through your body for 0.2 secs will kill you.

I asked twice to the electrician who sold this to me (private sale). He ensured me that there is no larger RCBO's on the market and that I will be grand.

What size RCBO do you recon I need?

shane0007

cluelez wrote: »

I asked twice to the electrician who sold this to me (private sale). He ensured me that there is no larger RCBO's on the market and that I will be grand.

What size RCBO do you recon I need?

I'm not a qualified electrician so I would not advise you, but I fully understand the implications of a DIY'er trying to save a few bucks on an installation.
If you need to ask then you do not understand & again I would highly recommend you have the works carried out by a qualified electrician. Only
Last year a plumber in Carlow electrocuted a girl when he wired the electric shower incorrectly. He was not an electrician either.
You may wish to put yourself at risk which is fine, work away but don't put others at risk for your financial gain.

cluelez

shane0007 wrote: »

I'm not a qualified electrician so I would not advise you, but I fully understand the implications of a DIY'er trying to save a few bucks on an installation.
If you need to ask then you do not understand & again I would highly recommend you have the works carried out by a qualified electrician. Only
Last year a plumber in Carlow electrocuted a girl when he wired the electric shower incorrectly. He was not an electrician either.
You may wish to put yourself at risk which is fine, work away but don't put others at risk for your financial gain.

I will pay a trip to local electrical shop and ask what RCBO is needed. Other than that I have wired earth to the main board and the pull cord switch which does isolate the shower (if needs be).

I will keep posted.

cluelez

I found this online (this is if I decide to go with two showers setup).

http://www.voltimum.ie/articles/abbs-range-prioritynon-priority-shower-boards

This still doesn't answer my q on the amp's of RCBO for the 9.5kW triton showers.

K.Flyer

cluelez wrote: »

I found this online (this is if I decide to go with two showers setup).

http://www.voltimum.ie/articles/abbs-range-prioritynon-priority-shower-boards

This still doesn't answer my q on the amp's of RCBO for the 9.5kW triton showers.

The H1122 unit is the one that we would recommend to our customers looking for a two shower set up in their house.
With respect OP, you should get a qualified electrician to fit it and certify it.
If you DIY and it causes damage or a fire you may find that you will have no insurance cover.

cluelez

K.Flyer wrote: »

The H1122 unit is the one that we would recommend to our customers looking for a two shower set up in their house.
With respect OP, you should get a qualified electrician to fit it and certify it.
If you DIY and it causes damage or a fire you may find that you will have no insurance cover.

Could you please pm me the location and estimated cost. Would this unit include RCBO's and if so, would they be suitable for 9.5kW pumped shower (using 10sq cable (length 13meters))?

K.Flyer

cluelez wrote: »

Could you please pm me the location and estimated cost. Would this unit include RCBO's and if so, would they be suitable for 9.5kW pumped shower (using 10sq cable (length 13meters))?

To be honest I cant, I'm not being funny, but I know how that unit works and how it priortises the shower units. But after that its in the electricians hands to supply, install and certify.

cluelez

K.Flyer wrote: »

To be honest I cant, I'm not being funny, but I know how that unit works and how it priortises the shower units. But after that its in the electricians hands to supply, install and certify.

I understand, are the rcbo's supplied with the unit?

cluelez

dazed+confused wrote: »

+1 on post above, this job can be awkward enough as the cables are enormous and the current you're dealing with is more than everything else in the house combined.

If you had two pumped showers (without instantaneous heaters) you can prevent them from draining your tank by installing two ball cocks in parallel ie. install an additonal one next to the existing ballcock.

but that's not the case both are (will be) instantaneous.

K.Flyer

cluelez wrote: »

I understand, are the rcbo's supplied with the unit?

Not trying to be unhelpful, but the electrician assembles the unit then fits it.
I would think they are ordered seperately for the different load ratings.
Also keep in mind, when you go to an electrical suppliers and you are asking for which rcbo is suitable, the person behind the counter may not be a qualfied electrician able to say which one is suitable. So you may be taking a risk on someones say so.

mistermano

cluelez wrote: »

I found this online (this is if I decide to go with two showers setup).

http://www.voltimum.ie/articles/abbs-range-prioritynon-priority-shower-boards

This still doesn't answer my q on the amp's of RCBO for the 9.5kW triton showers.

the current rating of breaker should exceed shower rating

so it should be >40

you should get a professional

cluelez

mistermano wrote: »

the current rating of breaker should exceed shower rating

so it should be >40

you should get a professional

I called two electrical suppliers shops in Dublin.

Both told me that 40amp RCBO for the showers is the largest they keep in stock and that every single 9.5kW shower they sell is paired with 40amp RCBO and 10sq cable (if the lenght of the cable is between 10-15 meters).

TheBody

cluelez wrote: »

I called two electrical suppliers shops in Dublin.

Both told me that 40amp RCBO for the showers is the largest they keep in stock and that every single 9.5kW shower they sell is paired with 40amp RCBO and 10sq cable (if the lenght of the cable is between 10-15 meters).

Perhaps you should ask the question about the RCBO in the electrical section:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1018

cluelez

TheBody wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask the question about the RCBO in the electrical section:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1018

yes, I asked but the mod closed the thread (no one could answer the question!)

The reasoning's behind I think were that DIY'er are not allowed to talk about it (sorry i'm not qualified electrician so mod decided to close the thread).

.G.

Its not because a diy'er isn't allowed talk about it,its because a diy'er should not be wiring a shower.

In any case we can answer your question and indeed your question was answered,people told you what they would select,they are qualified electricians so you got your answer. They just all feel you should get a sparky to do the work for you,I'm a sparky and I agree with them.

Dtp79

cluelez wrote: »

yes, I asked but the mod closed the thread (no one could answer the question!)

The reasoning's behind I think were that DIY'er are not allowed to talk about it (sorry i'm not qualified electrician so mod decided to close the thread).

Would you get a carpenter to fix your gas boiler?

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

Would you get a carpenter to fix your gas boiler?

No he'd fix it himself!

Hitchens

you'll get a good few electricians trying to do plumbers work as well

scudo2

cluelez wrote: »

Okay, everything works. will I post pictures to show my own work?

It's not my fault that I learned how to distinguish between + / - / earth
I used common sense and knowledge from my life to apply to this project. I have also repaired my washing machine, dishwasher. Installed timers and lights around the place. I worked on electrical systems in Germany as person who simply holds the box full of parts and watch what the electrician does and ask many questions, after couple of days I did few installations on my own and electrician said that these makes sense.

Plumber was clueless about the electrical connections and I now I'm confident that I can do plumbing myself.

After 29 years experience in plumbing, boilers and electrics ( in my job) + public liability insurance of €6,500,000 what do you think is better ?
You or me?
Please learn, you pay for our experence, you pay for your own mistakes !
Happy to see you have had a 3 day apprentiship.

cluelez

easy lads.

So is the 40amp RCBO correct or not? - If it is correct then I think I need to get my workmanship commissioned / approved by sparky or by engineer and I should be good.

DanWall

My electric shower is fed from the house water mains via a pressure regulator valve, why do you need a header tank?

cluelez

cluelez wrote: »

easy lads.

So is the 40amp RCBO correct or not? - If it is correct then I think I need to get my workmanship commissioned / approved by sparky or by engineer and I should be good.

Water and electrics can be a deadly mixture as others have found sadly. With other professions tasks like the one you have had a lash at, it may seem to be in the realms of a good DIYer but they do require training and good working practises to archive a safe uniform outcome by a tradesman.

As you dont know, what you dont know due to your lack of training you are reliant purely on luck for a safe outcome, why on earth would you want to take the risk? Especially with a appliance(s) pulling a lot of juice.

Getting your work checked out by a tradesman is not the same as them doing it themselves, the check is only a snapshot in time and things have been known to be missed.

shane0007

cluelez wrote: »

easy lads.

So is the 40amp RCBO correct or not? - If it is correct then I think I need to get my workmanship commissioned / approved by sparky or by engineer and I should be good.

The other reason is you are detailing with a different voltage than in the UK, therefore a different affect in the load.

You need an electrician. You have been told by electricians in the Electrical Forum this also.

What you know you may know, but you don't know what you don't know!

Go electrocute yourself by all means but it is the other people in your household I would fear for or the persons who occupy your house after you kill yourself!

I'm around heating wiring all day everyday, I have a good understanding/experiance in electrics but I would never in a month of Sundays attempt to do what your doing/done, this is because I'm not a sparks and I would very much fear making a mistake that ends in tears.

I'm not trying to be smart but I just don't unstand the willingnes of some to take needles risks there are plenty of good sparks out there, with what a shower is pulling there is no room for school boy errors.


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/electrical-forum-general-electrical-forum/28337-shower-fire.html

cluelez

gary71 wrote: »

I'm around heating wiring all day everyday, I have a good understanding/experiance in electrics but I would never in a month of Sundays attempt to do what your doing/done, this is because I'm not a sparks and I would very much fear making a mistake that ends in tears.

I'm not trying to be smart but I just don't unstand the willingnes of some to take needles risks there are plenty of good sparks out there, with what a shower is pulling there is no room for school boy errors.


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk/electrical-forum-general-electrical-forum/28337-shower-fire.html

Hi All,

Thank you for waking me up on this subject.

I have had called qualified electrician and he have completed the following:

1) check the tightness of the connections
2) performed the various tests with the test equipment
3) replaced Blue (negative) cable between RCBO and the board (about 12 cm. from 6sq to 10sq)
4) advised on the periodical tests of RCBO
5) advised about the test: 33amp at full power of the shower for 10seconds.
6) polarity and earthing verified
7) Resistance of the protective conductor .4 OHM
8) Trip Time .29ms
9) Fault Look Impedance 0.5 OHM


After all that carried out I have received Declaration of Compliance ET101.

shane0007

Well done. It takes more to bite the bullet than to battle on. You unknowingly may have saved a life & I hope this shows to others the importance of the correct person for a particular task.

It also sounds like you got a very professional electrician in.