Homepage Redesign Part 2

L5

Spear wrote: »

A lot of users aren't capable of working with the homepage. The influence of things like Facebook is very real on them

So why should boards be dumbing down our user experience just to cater to the lowest common denominator who aren't capable of working with the site?

Slutmonkey57b

If the old homepage was scaring off Facebook users who don't have the mental capacity to parse more than 12 or 15 pieces of information, then surely.....


That's a good thing! People with no mental faculties are not going to make good posters.

L5

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

If the old homepage was scaring off Facebook users who don't have the mental capacity to parse more than 12 or 15 pieces of information, then surely.....


That's a good thing! People with no mental faculties are not going to make good posters.

This seems to be the crux of it. The plan is to make it more like Facebook. Astounding. And if that's the direction boards is heading in, count me out.

Spear

L5 wrote: »

So why should boards be dumbing down our user experience just to cater to the lowest common denominator who aren't capable of working with the site?

Because that's the nature of the changing demographic. 10 years ago, the average boardsie wouldn't be too phased by the idea of compiling their own Linux kernel. And today a significant portion can't read a forum title but has no issue with the concept of a hashtag. It's not a reality I care for either, but I recognise it after 2000 threads in N&F showing it.

Chucken

Spear wrote: »

Because that's the nature of the changing demographic. 10 years ago, the average boardsie wouldn't be too phased by the idea of compiling their own Linux kernel. And today a significant portion can't read a forum title but has no issue with the concept of a hashtag. It's not a reality I care for either, but I recognise it after 2000 threads in N&F showing it.

Not being smart here but most of the posts/threads in N+F are people looking for a quick fix! "Where do I find a dog groomer" type questions. Some go on and use the site but most just disappear. They're not interested in discussing anything!

The way I see Boards is there are users and members.
Members care about the site.
Users use it.

I used to get a great kick out of catching spammers. Dam, it had turned into a hobby
...now, as I cant see new threads its ruined for me

nesf

Spear wrote: »

Because that's the nature of the changing demographic. 10 years ago, the average boardsie wouldn't be too phased by the idea of compiling their own Linux kernel. And today a significant portion can't read a forum title but has no issue with the concept of a hashtag. It's not a reality I care for either, but I recognise it after 2000 threads in N&F showing it.

And there, in a paragraph, is why so many have left.

Adyx

Boards.ie: Nicola wrote: »

I think I've said this elsewhere but we are still a really long way away from even contemplating moving the forums themselves away from vBulletin. And when we do start the process there will be much more consultation and notice given.



Again this had been said elsewhere but bold/unbold thread titles is something we will implement.

What does it matter how much "consultation" or notice there is when it's going to be a case of put up or shut up?

Spear wrote: »

A lot of users aren't capable of working with the homepage. The influence of things like Facebook is very real on them, and they don't get the idea that there might be structure to the site, or that it's not a free-for-all. A brief look at N&F will reveal plenty who couldn't figure it out, yet still managed to add things like tags to their posts.

So the priority users are the newbies who can barely work Facebook rather than established users or people who can actually take the time to work things out like THOUSANDS of others on this site or the millions worldwide who use vBulletin based forums just fine despite never compiling a kernal from source either. At the risk of repeating myself; instead of pandering to these types, why not educate them with something more useful than N&F since it appears to be a failure?

I suggested this in the beta feedback thread but I'll mention it here again. If new users aren't considered capable of working with the site as-is, create an option-able interactive tutorial for them. There's certainly no lack of whitespace in the new layout for little message popups and so on. This is what Facebook currently does when they add a new feature so it should go down well with Boards target market.

Chucken

6 months before I originally joined Boards (2009 ish I think) I had never used a computer!
I landed here via Adverts. I still remember the 1st person that responded to my post

Now, if I could figure it out, anyone can. If the designers think that young ones that have been using some sort of computer all their lives, cant figure this site out, what does that say?

Skid X

Adyx wrote: »

I suggested this in the beta feedback thread but I'll mention it here again. If new users aren't considered capable of working with the site as-is, create an option-able interactive tutorial for them. There's certainly no lack of whitespace in the new layout for little message popups and so on. This is what Facebook currently does when they add a new feature so it should go down well with Boards target market.

Exactly.

Boards could also make a few Youtube videos - what is Boards?, how to find the correct forum, how to start a new thread etc.

More signposts are needed, not a new road.

Dades

Spear wrote: »

Because that's the nature of the changing demographic. 10 years ago, the average boardsie wouldn't be too phased by the idea of compiling their own Linux kernel. And today a significant portion can't read a forum title but has no issue with the concept of a hashtag. It's not a reality I care for either, but I recognise it after 2000 threads in N&F showing it.

Why are we bothered by the 'average' Boards user?

Theres now hundreds of forums on Boards filled with average people. Yes, everybody is on the Internet these days, it's not only the realm of geeks, gamers and those with a buddy in the IT department in work like it used to be. But what we still have is individual forums, and their own individual communities. There's probably a bigger pool of like-minded people than there was in the early days, the site just happens to cater for other groups of like-minded people too.

nesf wrote: »

And there, in a paragraph, is why so many have left.

Again, I don't get why people would leave just because the site as a whole evolves. The niche forums remain. If the users in the other forums are annoying - ignore them! We can't expect the whole site to maintain a similar 'feel' to the smaller Boards of old, but we can still enjoy individual forums.

I simply don't get the connection between an honest effort to revamp the homepage and this notion that everything's changing for the worst. Especially when the team are listening to feedback and trying to incorporate it. If I was the lads in the office I'd be feeling pretty raw, this last couple of weeks.

nesf

Dades wrote: »

Again, I don't get why people would leave just because the site as a whole evolves. The niche forums remain. If the users in the other forums are annoying - ignore them! We can't expect the whole site to maintain a similar 'feel' to the smaller Boards of old, but we can still enjoy individual forums.

It's when you go into a forum and you no longer recognise it in a bad way. There are fewer and fewer quiet corners of boards these days, you know that.

Dades wrote: »

I simply don't get the connection between an honest effort to revamp the homepage and this notion that everything's changing for the worst. Especially when the team are listening to feedback and trying to incorporate it. If I was the lads in the office I'd be feeling pretty raw, this last couple of weeks.

If you make a mistake, come out and hold your hands up and say we'll fix it without attaching conditions people are very forgiving. If you make a mistake and come out and say you're not going back and you'll take into consideration people's concerns then that's setting a tone, one of the company is calling the shots here not the community. People are reacting to that perception.

They're listening to the feedback they want to listen to and flat out refusing to listen to some of the most often repeated requests, i.e. bring back the "spreadsheet." That's fine, it's their prerogative. It doesn't say anywhere that users have to be happy about this though.

Adyx

Dades wrote: »

Why are we bothered by the 'average' Boards user?

Theres now hundreds of forums on Boards filled with average people. Yes, everybody is on the Internet these days, it's not only the realm of geeks, gamers and those with a buddy in the IT department in work like it used to be. But what we still have is individual forums, and their own individual communities. There's probably a bigger pool of like-minded people than there was in the early days, the site just happens to cater for other groups of like-minded people too.

Again, I don't get why people would leave just because the site as a whole evolves. The niche forums remain. If the users in the other forums are annoying - ignore them! We can't expect the whole site to maintain a similar 'feel' to the smaller Boards of old, but we can still enjoy individual forums.

I simply don't get the connection between an honest effort to revamp the homepage and this notion that everything's changing for the worst. Especially when the team are listening to feedback and trying to incorporate it. If I was the lads in the office I'd be feeling pretty raw, this last couple of weeks.

I don't believe everything is changing for the worse and I do believe you're right about the revamp being genuine, i.e. it's not just to increase ad space. If the guys in the office are upset at the response they've gotten well I'm sorry but imagine the frustration being felt by many of the sites users over the last while. And I will not sugar-coat it to spare the feelings of the staff. The new homepage and layout in general including the ginormous header bar are examples of poor UI design. They're less functional and frankly, ugly compared to superior existing designs already implemented by the site. I have a 23" 1920*1080 monitor, if I had anything smaller and used the new layout I think I would actually go crazy. Did you know the new header bar is 3 times the height of the original beta yet offers little or no extra functionality? The new homepage is a similar story.

Fair enough Boards will eventually out-grow vBulletin, that's fine. But that is no reason to go completely re-inventing a wheel that only needs a new tyre. And the only feedback that is being listened to is the kind that fixes the mistakes in the new design instead of suggestions for how the design would actually work better. This not so much a feedback thread as a free QA thread.

I won't be one of those threatening to close my account when I'm forced to switch. I doubt anyone cares and it is only one website of many at the end of the day. But I do hope that the staff realise that the anger and frustration people are feeling should be taken as a positive sign of the love they have for Boards.

Sarky

I've tried, I really have, but you really do need either a separate column for the forum on the front page or more space between the forum and the post. Pretty or not, it's more work to scan and navigate. That's not what a front page is supposed to do.

spix

Sarky wrote: »

I've tried, I really have, but you really do need either a separate column for the forum on the front page or more space between the forum and the post. Pretty or not, it's more work to scan and navigate. That's not what a front page is supposed to do.

The design itself looks tidy (simply because everything is clumped together) but when you try to use it, its anything but. A middleground needs to be reached between non spreadsheet like looks + usability. I don't think the current layout has this. It's too difficult to tell the forums/thread titles apart.

Possible workarounds

1. Give the forum categories their own color (maybe customizable?) Gives the illusion of it having its own column
http://i.imgur.com/ovjhCeu.png

2. Put the starting points of all the forum categories + threads at the same place. Makes it easier to browse as your eyes know where to go. Make the text for the time/user smaller as its pretty unimportant. The threads are already sorted by time and I doubt anyone really cares who the last poster is.
http://i.imgur.com/CCW7Clt.png

Also make the 'last poster' text clickable in that it brings you to the last post. More discrete way of incorporating this then adding an icon as I've seen others mention.

Dades

nesf wrote: »

It's when you go into a forum and you no longer recognise it in a bad way. There are fewer and fewer quiet corners of boards these days, you know that.

I don't know that, really. But I don't tend to post in any really busy forums. But I guess if this is your own experience than as far as you're concerned the site has simply gotten too big. I don't know what anyone can do about that.

nesf wrote: »

If you make a mistake, come out and hold your hands up and say we'll fix it without attaching conditions people are very forgiving. If you make a mistake and come out and say you're not going back and you'll take into consideration people's concerns then that's setting a tone, one of the company is calling the shots here not the community. People are reacting to that perception.

They're listening to the feedback they want to listen to and flat out refusing to listen to some of the most often repeated requests, i.e. bring back the "spreadsheet." That's fine, it's their prerogative. It doesn't say anywhere that users have to be happy about this though.

From what I could see toys were being thrown out of prams in the first feedback thread before anyone had a chance to change anything. Feedback is a process, it doesn't happen instantly. Okay, so now we're on Feedback Part II, and I'd agree, not much has changed and resistance to some of the most requested changes has been expressed. But we're not done here. Melodrama won't help but constructive feedback will. I've added my voice for change, too.

Adyx wrote: »

The new homepage and layout in general including the ginormous header bar are examples of poor UI design. They're less functional and frankly, ugly compared to superior existing designs already implemented by the site. I have a 23" 1920*1080 monitor, if I had anything smaller and used the new layout I think I would actually go crazy. Did you know the new header bar is 3 times the height of the original beta yet offers little or no extra functionality? The new homepage is a similar story.

Can you find me the header bar that was 3 times smaller than the current one? Because I don't ever remember a smaller one (admittedly I don't use the homepage at all). I agree there's too much whitespace remaining, though I don't share your psychological fragility.

Archived homepages here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120601000000*/http://www.boards.ie

dr.bollocko

Can you align the thread name after the forum name in each item in the list so they're a straight line?

As it stands all that's happened as a result of the change is I've stopped using the front page, which I doubt was the intended result of the change.

Mr E

I'm not sure if that's workable. If you get a post in a forum like "Stuttering & Stammering & Speech Disorder", it'll throw off the whole list.

Toto Wolfcastle

Mr E wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's workable. If you get a post in a forum like "Stuttering & Stammering & Speech Disorder", it'll throw off the whole list.

I suppose that's why the old 'spreadsheet' style worked.

I'm with the Doc, don't use the homepage anymore unless I'm on my phone.

dr.bollocko

Mr E wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's workable. If you get a post in a forum like "Stuttering & Stammering & Speech Disorder", it'll throw off the whole list.

There's lots and lots and lots of empty space in which to create room.
Oceans of it.

Morag

I have also been avoiding the new 'home' page. It is no longer the homepage from which I browse and navigate the site.

I have seen improvements from when it went live. It is good to see that there is more info on it then what it was launched with but it's still not enough.

For those who are heavy users of the site changing what is part of the main real estate of the site in such a drastic manner, effecting the look of the site makes it seem very unfamiliar. It's like arriving home and someone has re arranged your room. It's like your mother decided to fix things while you were away for the weekend.

It also highly impacts on the way people have been using the site for years.
That pattern of interacting with the site while for them has become second nature and reflexive for many is now disrupted and causes frustration.

Between the site looking unfamiliar and the changes how many of us use the site as the 'home' page is the book mark or button on our browers it's too much.

Was any consideration given to the physiological effect these changes would have?

There have been many changes to the homepage over the years, I do know the site has to move away from the VBB structures but this is too much change.

Was the previous homepages of the site used as a guideline at all?

wnolan1992

I've pretty much stopped using the homepage too. I've tried, I really have, to get used to it, but it's just not user friendly at all. Having to scan across the large amount of whitespace to see where to click to get to the latest post just feels wrong.

I've found myself just sticking to my subscribed threads via the CP, which is a shame.

Adyx

Dades wrote: »

I don't know that, really. But I don't tend to post in any really busy forums. But I guess if this is your own experience than as far as you're concerned the site has simply gotten too big. I don't know what anyone can do about that.

From what I could see toys were being thrown out of prams in the first feedback thread before anyone had a chance to change anything. Feedback is a process, it doesn't happen instantly. Okay, so now we're on Feedback Part II, and I'd agree, not much has changed and resistance to some of the most requested changes has been expressed. But we're not done here. Melodrama won't help but constructive feedback will. I've added my voice for change, too.

Can you find me the header bar that was 3 times smaller than the current one? Because I don't ever remember a smaller one (admittedly I don't use the homepage at all). I agree there's too much whitespace remaining, though I don't share your psychological fragility.

Archived homepages here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120601000000*/http://www.boards.ie

Maybe I'm not calling it by it's proper name. I meant the bar with the forum links at the top of the page that follows as you scroll. I admit it's nothing to do with the homepage and is off-topic somewhat. I'm also glad to report that I still use the original beta and I've given up using the homepage so for now I'm as sane as I ever was. :P

Masked Man

Adyx, go here. Then turn off Sticky Header.

Dades

Masked Man wrote: »

Adyx, go here. Then turn off Sticky Header.

Or maybe try "Cosy Mode".
Loses about 1/3rd off the sticky header size.

Dav

Hello all.

I'm back after a holiday - this holiday was either poorly or excellently timed depending on your point of view I wanna say a big thank you to those of you who've helped out with feedback. I mentioned in the other thread, I think we have a pretty good track record in responding to feedback on new features or on changes we've made and I'd like to think that the changes so far to the home page have shown that this is still the case.

I know Rónán is working on something new at the moment - I'm hoping to get a screen shot of it later on to post - I don't have a "go live" date for his work yet.

Finally, I want to say a big thank you to Nicola and Niamh as well as Rónán, Danny and Alvis for the ongoing work on this and for keeping the rest of you up to date and the updates to the page rolling out.

Adyx

Masked Man wrote: »

Adyx, go here. Then turn off Sticky Header.

Thanks, but I love sticky headers. The one in the original beta skin is perfect. It's just the one in the skin I don't like.
This is what I use.

Dades

^^ Agreed that was ideal. Don't need the logo or the search box all the time.

Though they'd have to stuff back in "My Forums" and your profile options to the current top bar, as the top bar as it stands doesn't contain them anymore.

padraig_f

The front page still has the major problem of posts taking up too much vertical space.

Article on Slate last month, think it's relevant to the redesign:
You Won’t Finish This Article

It refers to articles rather than forums, but I think the effect is the same, i.e. you lose readers when you force them to scroll.


I've noticed this effect when I use the new front page. I used to be able to see 50 posts with a single page down. While I can still technically view 50 posts, with the extra hassle of scrolling & paging to see them, in practice now, I only bother looking at a smaller number, about 15-20 on average. This is a crucial difference for me. With 50 posts easily visible, I was able to keep tabs on all my regular forums. Looking at 15-20, I feel I'm missing discussions now that I didn't miss before, and I feel a bit more disconnected to what's going on.

As I get more disconnected, I'm more likely to drift away from those forums. I'm persisting with it at the moment, but if it stays like this, I can see myself using the site less.


I've given functional reasons why the redesign has negatively impacted my use of the site, but I haven't seen a good defense from the designers for the benefits of it. All I've seen is these phrases 'excel spreadsheet' and 'wall of text', that the designers wanted to move away from. But I haven't seen a logical argument why the new layout works better. If there isn't a good functional reason, it makes me think it was done more for appearance reasons. So if I missed it, tell me, is there a functional reason why displaying 12 posts in the space where there used to be 25 (with no extra information per-post), is better?

padraig_f

Another thing, if you think a table-layout or 'wall of text' is a big problem, take a look at the standard Gmail inbox layout, which performs a very similar function to the boards front page. They are not putting the 'from' and the 'date' fields underneath the subject line, taking up double the space, which is what the new front-page design has effectively done.

Skatedude

Lo.
I'm trying to get used to the new homepage, but still dont like it. With the old layout, you could simply glance through all the post topic to see. But now you have to read it all as the post topics are all spaced differently due to the forum including what forum it's from first.

the vertical spacing is too much needing 3 or 4 pages to show what one page could before.
Also, when you click on the next page, it dosent scroll back to the start but stays on the bottom of the page(sure it's been mentioned).
I have to admit that i find myself not bothering to go through all the highlights anymore and going to other websites instead.
At the end of the day, the forum numbers will tell the story.

I do appreciate all the work that's been done by people involved who put a lot into these forums.