Tootsie & female beauty: "I have been brainwashed"

beks101

OnTheCouch wrote: »

The woman writing the piece may be taking a somewhat 'tongue-in-cheek' attitude to the article

I think this is what's happening in the article.

I think she's classifying herself as "ugly" according to the standards we see on TV, in movies, in magazines. In the same way that "Ugly Betty" aka America Ferrera is "ugly"; or the actress in "She's All That" who takes her glasses off and suddenly she's a goddess.

According to these ridiculous rules, most of us are "ugly" and I think that's what the article is highlighting. I think most of us feel like this:

I don't see people like me playing the romantic lead or having a romantic life. People on TV and in films who are not good-looking are rarely portrayed having sex, enjoying sex, having sex with good-looking people who don't regret it or having a healthy attitude to sex without hang-ups.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

The thing about attractive people is in the name, they're more attractive. People are drawn to them and studies show people assume them to be more popular and successful without knowing anything else about them. I wouldn't call it brainwashing, it's more the way our brains are hard-wired (for example, even babies and infants are more attracted to more aesthetically pleasing faces)

This is the abc of attraction and there's a science behind it. People are drawn to those with more symmetrical faces, full lips, low waist-to-hip ratio, yadda yadda.

This isn't what I'm talking about though. And I doubt Hoffman was suggesting we force ourselves to be attracted to/ask out the people we wouldn't naturally be drawn towards.

What I'm talking about is being excluded, overlooked, treating with indifference or worse, contempt by someone, simply because they aren't attracted to you. That's very different to someone simply being drawn to another and wishing to engage with them. Being attracted to someone shouldn't make you impervious to other people or diminish their worth in your eyes. And that's a real thing - as you'll see from the various examples here.

Call Me Jimmy

old hippy wrote: »

When I see words like "ugly" used on boards (obv. not this discussion) it saddens me. It used to anger me but I just gave up on discussing it with the individuals who are all to happy to dismiss someone because of their perception of how a woman should "be". True ugliness tends to well up from the inside and those that use the term against women tend (IMHO) to be full of it.

Very well put and I agree. For me though I find it hard to marry the idea of someone being innately physically attractive and me not being interested in them more than someone else.

EDIT: excluding the obvious scenario where the attractive person has had a lobotomy.

Folly go Lightly

Maybe its not just the good looking vs the less fortunate in appearance, but rather the fact that Dustin Hoffman's character in Tootsie is clearly a late middle aged woman.

I personally think the age issue is the biggest issue regarding the 'attractiveness' value attribute placed on women. Without a doubt, the inherent attractiveness of a woman is rated, and depressingly so, by people who well, judge other people.

Certainly there are women who end up being more patronised rather than being reassured or empowered by others if they do admit to falling below the perceived society quotient of attractiveness.
As another poster more eloquently put it, it suggests low self esteem, depression, lack of confidence etc..rather than calling a spade a spade and saying this is what is and how it is for me.

However, youth has inherent beauty and allure.
The big issue I feel here that Hoffman was alluding to (maybe I am giving him too much credit) was the fact that the woman he was impersonating was an older woman, and not a stunning beauty growing older, just an older, ordinary woman.

mariaalice

What I'm talking about is being excluded, overlooked, treating with indifference or worse, contempt by someone, simply because they aren't attracted to you. That's very different to someone simply being drawn to another and wishing to engage with them. Being attracted to someone shouldn't make you impervious to other people or diminish their worth in your eyes. And that's a real thing - as you'll see from the various examples here.





If anything like that happened to me I would just think the person was rude and had no manners, ever social interaction is not about whether someone finds you attractive or you find them attractive and if a person man or woman basis all there social interaction on how attractive someone is then they must have an ego the size of the sun.

I don't understand the obsession with attractiveness or ageing and basing your life on how you are perceived by other( men ) I watched a film the other night with Ann Hathaway in it and I thought what a beautiful woman I don't feel diminished by another woman beauty why would I. We change as we age and that's life in fact I find it liberating, desperately clinging on to the hope that someone might find you attractive is a terrible way to live you life.

Call Me Jimmy

mariaalice wrote: »

What I'm talking about is being excluded, overlooked, treating with indifference or worse, contempt by someone, simply because they aren't attracted to you. That's very different to someone simply being drawn to another and wishing to engage with them. Being attracted to someone shouldn't make you impervious to other people or diminish their worth in your eyes. And that's a real thing - as you'll see from the various examples here.





If anything like that happened to me I would just think the person was rude and had no manners, ever social interaction is not about whether someone finds you attractive or you find them attractive and if a person man or woman basis all there social interaction on how attractive someone is then they must have an ego the size of the sun.

I don't understand the obsession with attractiveness or ageing and basing your life on how you are perceived by other( men ) I watched a film the other night with Ann Hathaway in it and I thought what a beautiful woman I don't feel diminished by another woman beauty why would I. We change as we age and that's life in fact I find it liberating, desperately clinging on to the hope that someone might find you attractive is a terrible way to live you life.

Refreshing post!

Babooshka

[


I don't understand the obsession with attractiveness or ageing and basing your life on how you are perceived by other( men ) I watched a film the other night with Ann Hathaway in it and I thought what a beautiful woman I don't feel diminished by another woman beauty why would I. We change as we age and that's life in fact I find it liberating, desperately clinging on to the hope that someone might find you attractive is a terrible way to live you life.[/QUOTE]

I agree most definitely. I think a lot of it is young people being obsessed and rife with hormones running through them looking for the best looking thing to procreate with (without even being conscious of that)
I am finding getting to know people, especially older people in conversation on holidays or in general far more interesting than when I was younger. And I just care less now about other people's perceptions of me.

My cousin was in a terrible car accident when he was younger and ended up with his face almost melted off of him. His face is a bit of a mess and badly scarred down one side. His girlfriend didn't leave him , she became his wife and they have several kids, so the moral of the story is, it's nice to look good and all of that, but if you're hanging out with people who find aesthetics more important than anything else, then you better pray nothing happens your face in this life.

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

The woman who wrote the article is not ugly she is quirky

I know someone who uses quirky as a synonym for ugly

The word is weighted differently when applied to each gender. In my observation calling a man ugly is merely observation; calling a woman ugly is a judgement.

Phoeey

This article shows that men tend to view women "locally". They process their body in parts and focus more on certain features. Men tend to view other men "globally", they process them as a whole, and women tend to view men "globally" too. The article also says that even women tend to view other women "locally". It's hardwired into all of our brains.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=our-brains-see-men-as-whole-women-as-parts

I'd imagine that the phenomenon that this thread is concerned with is caused mainly by this.

Wibbs

Maybe, though I've read other studies that seemed to show that men and women both kick off as taking in the overall picture, then focus on individual areas. Another I read put special glasses on people that tracked where their eyes fell in social emcounters. Both sexes focused on physical features, men tended to linger longer, whereas women focused just as much, but more quickly and less obviously. Interestingly when questioned men were more aware that they were doing this, where with women it seemed to be a subconscious thing(maybe because women were downloading and processing the information faster). Interesting stuff.

LegacyUser

Wibbs wrote: »

Well one could get all objective, or at least make a fist of same and get down to brass tacks and look at what makes for attraction. Primarily sexual attraction as that's what we're discussing, on the surface anyway. Now "brainwashing" or better, cultural conditioning most certainly plays into this, as what is considered attractive across culture and time does vary. Can vary quite a bit, but one could argue that variability even in extremis is narrow enough and there are some constants. Beyond the cultural, the "genetic" fitness is a lot of it. Now I don't buy either the genetics - nor it's bedfellow evolutionary biology - wholesale. It's too modish for that. However there is something to it IMHO.

In very basic terms, "ugly" is reproductively unfit expressed as an external thing, while "beauty" is reproductively fit expressed as an external thing. There's quite the bit of evidence that backs this up in real world terms. EG women with the "ideal" hip - waist ratio(regardless of body weight) have healthier hormonal levels and are more likely to have fewer fertility issues compared to women who don't. Taller men are less likely to have heart attacks and are more likely to be promoted. Men who go bald at a young age are more likely to have cardiovascular issues. So we subconsciously select for traits more advantageous, even above and beyond the cultural conditioning.

EG while very low body weight women are prevalent in our culture as ideals currently, many if not most men if faced with such women in the flesh are more likely to ignore them in favour of women more "normal" in body weight.

So yea we are brainwashed to some degree by cultural pressures, but we can also fall outside them too. The problem comes when we forget that we're not all avatars of culture and that there is a mind, there is an individual behind the physical form and that goes both ways. Very "beautiful" women(and men) can be ignored for their mind, just as much as very "ugly" women can be, though of course the former has an easier ride in life compared to the latter. For a time anyway. Luckily for the rest of us we sit near the average and that's a good thing IMH.

I think it's sad that for the most part women are judged mainly on their physical appearance. And I think it's getting worse; open any women's magazine and there will be advice on how to get a "bikini body", how to get perfect skin etc and then the pictures with the rings around any tiny body "flaw" on celebrities. No wonder so many of us women are so insecure!!

I recently met relatives (an aunt and uncle and cousins) that were visiting from abroad - I hadn't seen them in years. My aunt proceeded to tell me I look like a model etc etc, why don't I have a boyfriend as I am so pretty etc etc. I was actually mortified. She didn't ask one question about any other part of my life; I have just finished a degree and started a new job - no questions about that. Just my looks. I am not a vain person in any sense of the word; in fact I am quite shy and insecure but I find it so irritating that many people literally do not see past what I look like. I just think our society is far, far too obsessed with physical beauty. There is so much more to a person other than their face and body - what about their humour, kindness, intelligence etc??

mariaalice

People like to look at attractive people, that not exactly news, but that not what the thread is about.

The thread seems to be about two different things, the perception that if you are not attractive you will be overlooked in social situation's by almost everyone and even if someone interacts with you it is because they were forced in to it.

The one thing I like about small town rural Ireland is that if you go to the pub all ages will talk to each other and you will see a 19 year old talking to a 70 year old, you would be considered very odd if you refused to chit chat with who ever talked to you.

The second point is one that often come up, is that the media culture( in particular film) only features good looking people having romantic and sexual relationships and that is not a reflect of reality ( of course it is not ), and that somehow the media should be forced to reflect reality. The culture of visual media we have in our society is basically what ever sells will be produced and sold, it is not meant to be a reflection of reality, why would it, its form entertainment. The stand up comedian sounds very self absorbed.

A much bigger question is why people base so much of their sense of themselves and their happiness on what they look like and on how they imagine others perceive them.

Speisekarte

People will always pay more attention to good looking people, that isn't going to change. You have to accept that and you have to accept you aren't entitled to attention. People are entitled to focus their attention wherever they want.

Degringola

I wonder with Dustin Hoffman if the invisible-middle-aged-woman syndrome kicked in. Would he maybe have paid more attention to a younger version of his female self?

MaxWig

One could make all of the above points about funny people/Confident people etc etc..

I don't think I'm particularly ugly, but when I enter a party, I feel overlooked for the loud, confident, funny people.

Boohoo and all that.

No matter who you are, there are situations where your particular constellation of attributes are defunct, unwanted, obsolete, irrelevant etc..

I for one love beautiful people, and would like to see more of them.

But I love the fuglies too

beks101

MaxWig wrote: »

One could make all of the above points about funny people/Confident people etc etc..

I don't think I'm particularly ugly, but when I enter a party, I feel overlooked for the loud, confident, funny people.

You're a man though, right? The worth and value placed on looks socially would differ if that's the case.

MaxWig wrote: »

No matter who you are, there are situations where your particular constellation of attributes are defunct, unwanted, obsolete, irrelevant etc..

Not to the same extent that being physically attractive or not being physically attractive will determine the attention, admiration, respect and regard you get.

Sure, if you're loud, more people will look, but whether you're loud and attractive or loud and not particularly attractive will determine the level of engagement that many men will bother with.

I'm all for sexual attraction, pursuing someone you fancy, flirting, engaging, spending time with someone because you can't keep your eyes off them. That's how the world goes round.

What this thread is about is the very honest point Hoffman made about the fact that he wouldn't have bothered with his female alter-ego in any kind of social situation, despite the fact that she's an interesting, compelling character. That was an honest and brave admission and a rare insight, I thought, into a subconscious thought process that filters through a lot of men's brains.

I've thought a bit about this recently, and I think my days of chasing the hot guys around the room and enduring conversations with people who were on totally a different wavelength to me just because they were my idea of attractive, are reserved to my younger years. My late teens, maybe very early 20s. I think it's something I grew out of, as my brain matured and I became more sociable.

When I go out now, it's to meet interesting people. I don't think anyone would be 'off' my social radar, unless they exhibited unsavoury social behaviour, seemed aloof, hostile, closed off to me, non-communicative. And I'm single, so it's not as if sexual attraction is off my radar. It just tends to be cultivated through conversations with someone attractive who also happens to have interesting things to say.