Is Scotland British?

iDave

This is something I've been pondering recently. I know legally as being part of the UK they are British but are the Scots truly British?
My reasoning is, and I am open to correction on this by historians/eptymologists, is that the term Britain comes from the old Roman province of Brittania.
Britannia only included modern day England and Wales. The Pictish tribes north of Hadrians Wall in modern day Scotland were never conquered by Rome and therefore were never part of Britannia.
So if they were never part of Britannia is it right to refer to Scotland as being part of Britain?
Again I am open to correction if my history and terminology is incorrect.

maximoose

Yes.

mike65

yes, until the people decide otherwise.

/thread

Prodigious

thread\

No

/thread

Dravokivich

Well, for one thing, it's full of Scots.

miamee

If you want real answers, try the History and Heritage forum

Jester252

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, for one thing, it's full of Scots.

Damn Scots
They ruined Scotland.

tin79

Google maps says yes. Thats all you need to know.

You can move on to ponder something else now.

I suggest a 9/11 conspiracy theory, legality of VRT or that fig roll thing.

mike65

Prodigious wrote: »

thread\

No

/thread

In what way is Scotland not British right now? I mean in a legal provable way.

efb

Imagine if boards settled this? No need for the costly referendum

inforfun

Since Sunday afternoon it is even English

Lenin Skynard

They're scrotish.

Banjo String

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

They're scrotish.

Load of balls

bnt

"Britain" doesn't mean anything specific on its own. Great Britain is the big island (Scotland, England & Wales), which "British Isles" is Great Britain plus Ireland and all the smaller islands.

In Geographical terms, then, Ireland is also "British", but I know that's not much liked here for political reasons ..!

Cienciano

It was the name for the island, not just up to hadrians wall.
And even if it wasn't back then, the island is definitely refered to as britain now. Maybe in the future Scotland won't be part of Britain politically and become independent, but at the moment, scotland is 100% british. Unless you're a Celtic fan and think it's actually Irish.

BraziliaNZ

If you go up there, especially around Edinburgh, you'll see how British they are compared to us, I really don't get this whole Irish/Scottish being the same thing people talk about. Glasgow people are like Irish people I think, but probably because tonnes of them descend from us.
My experience from living there was a far more dour, strict, extreeeeeeemely tight with money people than the Irish which seem like fun loving happy party animals compared to the Scotch.

iDave

Cienciano wrote: »

It was the name for the island, not just up to hadrians wall.

Ah thanks, I always assumed Britannia was just the name for the conquered territories.

dd972

Yes, if you're a rabid Rangers fan in some housing scheme full of one eyed dogs, pubs with boarded up windows and a CCTV over the door and three piece suites and mattresses piled up outside houses.

Or some Alisdair-Farqhuar-MacKenzie who owns half of Perthshire and went to Oxford University.

For the overwhelming majority of Scots though, Scotland is Scottish and that's it.

OnTheCouch

Well they might put the whole debate to bed irrespective of history, should they vote to secede from the UK in next year's referendum. I don't think it will happen, but even the possibility is quite momentous I feel.

On an afterthought, I wonder what the reaction would have been had Andy Murray, after deservedly winning Wimbledon on Sunday, raised a Scottish flag in celebration? I would have had absolutely no problem with him doing so, but I suspect it would have gone down like a lead balloon with the Southern-dominated media.

I believe he is intelligent enough to know to avoid making controversial gestures like that at this stage, but again it's amusing to think of the reaction had he gone through with it.

everdead.ie

Scotland is British in the sense that the country is part of the Island of Britain, but the people are a mixture of British, Scottish, both and neither (immigrants). It is a personal choice people get to make much like in Northern Ireland.

topper75

bnt wrote: »

In Geographical terms, then, Ireland is also "British", but I know that's not much liked here for political reasons ..!

As declared by God Himself in his book Geographicus Deus Magnus?

These 'geographers' who came up with the term were the idle wealthy who lived in 18th c. England. The Irish were never consulted in this. They were busy eking out an existence on small holdings, the rent for which was paid to absentee landlords across the sea - yeah the same wealthy chaps who hung around establishments such as the Royal Geographical Society and suchlike naming parts of the world to glorify themselves.

I like beautiful Britain but Ireland is no more part of the "British Isles" than Denmark is part of the Norwegian Peninsulas.

9959

inforfun wrote: »

Since Sunday afternoon it is even English

Can you cite when/where Andy Murray was referred to as English, I must have missed that one. I have heard of him being described as a British tennis player, which of course is correct, why he even won a gold medal for Britain at the London Olympics.

COYW

dd972 wrote: »

For the overwhelming majority of Scots though, Scotland is Scottish and that's it.

And British. They all collect their MBEs, CBEs etc. They will remain British until they decide otherwise.

An Coilean

bnt wrote: »

"Britain" doesn't mean anything specific on its own. Great Britain is the big island (Scotland, England & Wales), which "British Isles" is Great Britain plus Ireland and all the smaller islands.

In Geographical terms, then, Ireland is also "British", but I know that's not much liked here for political reasons ..!

Thats a bit of an anacronisim, its British and Irish Isles now.

everdead.ie

9959 wrote: »

Can you cite when/where Andy Murray was referred to as English, I must have missed that one. I have heard of him being described as a British tennis player, which of course is correct, why he even won a gold medal for Britain at the London Olympics.

The New York Times ran with it saying he was English poor Journalism.

bedrock#1

CGP Grey explains....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

9959

everdead.ie wrote: »

The New York Times ran with it saying he was English poor Journalism.

The New York Times is just a Canadian rag.

hognef

topper75 wrote: »

I like beautiful Britain but Ireland is no more part of the "British Isles" than Denmark is part of the Norwegian Peninsulas.

Partly because there's no such thing as the "Norwegian Peninsulas"...

everdead.ie

9959 wrote: »

The New York Times is just a Canadian rag.

You tell them that

COYW

An Coilean wrote: »

Thats a bit of an anacronisim, its British and Irish Isles now.

Contrary to every geographical reference out there. Go to 1:25 of that video for further proof.

dd972

COYW wrote: »

And British. They all collect their MBEs, CBEs etc. They will remain British until they decide otherwise.

If a Scot said to me ''I'm Scottish and not British'', I'd accept that, what people identify with and how they perceive themselves is their personal business and not for others to dictate.

COYW

dd972 wrote: »

If a Scot said to me ''I'm Scottish and not British'', I'd accept that, what people identify with and how they perceive themselves is their personal business and not for others to dictate.

Of course, and if they turned to you and said "I'm Scottish and British", would you be so accepting?

markomuscle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWYwkkcG64A

Some Scots like to reject the Scottish culture and identify themselves with being british, these are usually loyalist thugs though.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

dodderangler

Andy Murray is Scottish and was told after he had won that its great that Wimbledon has been won by a Brit in 77 years.

Guarantee if he had lost he would've been referred to as a scot.

Madam

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

My experience from living there was a far more dour, strict, extreeeeeeemely tight with money people than the Irish which seem like fun loving happy party animals compared to the Scotch.

Did you forget to finish that sentence - you are are talking about a people - not a bottle of spirits?

Well known fallacy that the Scots are mean by the way, just like any other people there are stingy folk but honestly they would be a tiny minority(nothing to do with not having any money either)! Stingiest folk I know are mostly English - I mean what is it about them when they won't buy a round when its so obviously their turn

3DataModem

dodderangler wrote: »

Andy Murray is Scottish and was told after he had won that its great that Wimbledon has been won by a Brit in 77 years.

Guarantee if he had lost he would've been referred to as a scot.

Apart from Virginia Wade, of course.

Robbo

Without even looking at the thread, I presume someone's made that new and exciting joke about Andy Murray being a Scot when he loses but he's British when he wins?

Celly Smunt

Low land Scotland is very British,proud British also.Only parts of Glasgow and bits of Edinburgh are quite opposed.

The further north you go,the nicer the people.A lot of Scots in low land scotland are just down right Crazy.

Beefy78

markomuscle wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWYwkkcG64A

Some Scots like to reject the Scottish culture and identify themselves with being british, these are usually loyalist thugs though.

Scottish and British are not - or rather should not be -exclusive of each other.

The issue here isn't Scotland. It's England and England's inability for the last 60 years to have an identity of its own which tends to result in people both in the UK and overseas using the words 'British' and 'English' interchangeably.

robinph

dodderangler wrote: »

Andy Murray is Scottish and was told after he had won that its great that Wimbledon has been won by a Brit in 77 years.

Guarantee if he had lost he would've been referred to as a scot.

Want to make a bet on that guarantee you've just made?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/18757207

References to nationality:
British = 2
Scottish = 1
Swiss = 2

dd972

COYW wrote: »

Of course, and if they turned to you and said "I'm Scottish and British", would you be so accepting?

Yes, of course, there'd also be numerous Irish passport holders around the Glasgow / West Coast area, albeit born and raised there of Donegal / Derry background, if they regard themselves as Irish and nothing else, who are we to say they're not?

brick_top

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

If you go up there, especially around Edinburgh, you'll see how British they are compared to us, I really don't get this whole Irish/Scottish being the same thing people talk about. Glasgow people are like Irish people I think, but probably because tonnes of them descend from us.
My experience from living there was a far more dour, strict, extreeeeeeemely tight with money people than the Irish which seem like fun loving happy party animals compared to the Scotch.

strict , dour , bleak outlook ( decent for the most part however )

that's what most scots are , I don't know where most irish people got the idea that the scots are near identical to us , they are not , we also need to get over this idea of kinship with the scots , you will meet more resentment for being irish in Scotland than in England

brick_top

9959 wrote: »

Can you cite when/where Andy Murray was referred to as English, I must have missed that one. I have heard of him being described as a British tennis player, which of course is correct, why he even won a gold medal for Britain at the London Olympics.

andy murray refers to himself as british , the guy had a trial with rangers as a teenager before committing to tennis , great guy and great tennis player but I don't think he will be doing much work for alex salmond and the SNP

brick_top

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

tight is a derrogotary term but scots are definatley thrifty when it comes to money , its a Calvinist thing , the dutch are the same , spending money on frivolous things was seen as sinfull , kiwis who are largely descended from scots are also very cautious with cash

irish people are like African americans when it comes to money

brick_top

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Low land Scotland is very British,proud British also.Only parts of Glasgow and bits of Edinburgh are quite opposed.

The further north you go,the nicer the people.A lot of Scots in low land scotland are just down right Crazy.

I thought lowland Scotland included Glasgow and Edinburgh , in fact i thought lowland encompassed up as far as Aberdeen

SharpshooterTom

Could you imagine if a 2nd generation Irish person won Wimbledon declaring for Ireland?

Now that would be funny. :cool:

iDave

brick_top wrote: »

irish people are like African americans when it comes to money

and who decended from who there? :P

Celly Smunt

brick_top wrote: »

I thought lowland Scotland included Glasgow and Edinburgh , in fact i thought lowland encompassed up as far as Aberdeen

That's what im saying.Glasgow,Edinburgh,Dundee Aberdeen etc are all low land and full of nutters.

overshoot

robinph wrote: »

Want to make a bet on that guarantee you've just made?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/18757207

References to nationality:
British = 2
Scottish = 1
Swiss = 2

i think it proves the point

Murray, 25, was aiming to become the first British man since Fred Perry in 1936 to lift a major singles trophy.

He was the first Briton to contest the Wimbledon men's singles final since Bunny Austin in 1938

Murray was reeled in from 40-0, Federer moving to deuce when the Scot took a heavy tumble at the net,

british when firsts are mentioned, then scot blows his lead and falls over :pac:

brick_top

Celly Smunt wrote: »

That's what im saying.Glasgow,Edinburgh,Dundee Aberdeen etc are all low land and full of nutters.

i don't know what the geographical breakdown is when it comes to support for an independent Scotland but surprisingly , catholics in Scotland tend to be opposed to breaking with the rest of the uk and vote overwhelmginly labour , the SNP are almost completely reliant on protestants for their support

some say catholics in Scotland fear a loss of rights in the event of a break from London