Lamb Faecal Samples Results

razor8

got my lambs faecal samples as part of the STAP and got my results today

Initial Test

Worm Egg Count 500 EPG (Positive)
Nermatodirus 800 EPG (Positive)
and a note to say Coccidia & Moniezia present

on the same day i dosed them with a white and yellow wormer mix (Arrest) along with vecoxan which was there second shot on advice of Vet (€275 for 2.5 Litres Awww)

Retested 10 Days later

Worm Egg Count 400 EPG (Positive)
Nermatodirus 00 EPG (Negative)
and a note to say Coccidia still present

few questions,
1. am i right in saying my worm count while positive isnt at a dangerous level
2 . how long before cocci would clear up, the lambs really dirty got a shot of norodine as well. it seems to be getting a bit of a problem for me. they got vecoxan on 7 weeks average so i didnt expect to see it again, any alternatives to vecoxan?
Any advice/opinions out there
??

Conmaicne Mara

Lol, just have my results in my hand this minute.

Results of my PRE drench test:

Strongyle 250
Nemo 50
Coccidia Positive
Moniezia Positive (not surprising considering the shagging great tapeworm in one of the dungs!)
Lungworm Negative
Strongyloides Papillosus 50

Dosed all except for three lambs with Chanaverm Plus after test, will be sampling again tomorrow morning.

Off to consult with vet in the afternoon.

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

got my lambs faecal samples as part of the STAP and got my results today

Initial Test

Worm Egg Count 500 EPG (Positive)
Nermatodirus 800 EPG (Positive)
and a note to say Coccidia & Moniezia present

on the same day i dosed them with a white and yellow wormer mix (Arrest) along with vecoxan which was there second shot on advice of Vet (€275 for 2.5 Litres Awww)

Retested 10 Days later

Worm Egg Count 400 EPG (Positive)
Nermatodirus 00 EPG (Negative)
and a note to say Coccidia still present

few questions,
1. am i right in saying my worm count while positive isnt at a dangerous level
2 . how long before cocci would clear up, the lambs really dirty got a shot of norodine as well. it seems to be getting a bit of a problem for me. they got vecoxan on 7 weeks average so i didnt expect to see it again, any alternatives to vecoxan?
Any advice/opinions out there
??

You definitely have resistance to arrest, trouble is now you don't know whether your yellow or white didn't work.....you'd expect at least 85%0f the worms to be killed in 10 days.
800 is very high for nemo and your scour could be due to the damage done by them, nematodirus is a killer
Coccidiosis can be positive in lambs without causing problem, but can cause problems in times of stress, so if you got the worms sorted, the cocci could reduce significantly.
I'd dose again and test again, I'd also go for something like cydectin or if you want to be sure of a worm kill go for zolvix from your vet, as there is resistance out there to the ivermectins as well.
The important thing now is to clear the parasites and get the lambs thriving.

We have lambs in today and we're dosing for the third time for nematodirus ........ count was 300
We dose at 500 for worms.....once they have any nemo we dose,
Hope this helps.

razor8

rancher wrote: »

You definitely have resistance to arrest, trouble is now you don't know whether your yellow or white didn't work.....you'd expect at least 85%0f the worms to be killed in 10 days.
800 is very high for nemo and your scour could be due to the damage done by them, nematodirus is a killer
Coccidiosis can be positive in lambs without causing problem, but can cause problems in times of stress, so if you got the worms sorted, the cocci could reduce significantly.
I'd dose again and test again, I'd also go for something like cydectin or if you want to be sure of a worm kill go for zolvix from your vet, as there is resistance out there to the ivermectins as well.
The important thing now is to clear the parasites and get the lambs thriving.

We have lambs in today and we're dosing for the third time for nematodirus ........ count was 300
We dose at 500 for worms.....once they have any nemo we dose,
Hope this helps.

Thanks Rancher, great info there

i suspect i have resistance to both white and yellow, didnt think i would as i say i never used these products in years

was thinking cydectin too, but it would have to be oral dose as injection is 82 days withdrawal while oral is only 14 days, would you think oral would be as good or anything else? reluctant to use zolviz until i try a clear drench first

maybe nematodirus is my problem rather than cocci. i did dose lambs at 7 weeks old with bimectin which covers nemo and at presampling they averaged 89 days old(12.7 weeks). my vet is on holidays in portugal so cant lean on him til he is back

do you think i should dose straight away when reading is at 400 or should i wait a week or two??

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

Thanks Rancher, great info there

i suspect i have resistance to both white and yellow, didnt think i would as i say i never used these products in years

was thinking cydectin too, but it would have to be oral dose as injection is 82 days withdrawal while oral is only 14 days, would you think oral would be as good or anything else? reluctant to use zolviz until i try a clear drench first

maybe nematodirus is my problem rather than cocci. i did dose lambs at 7 weeks old with bimectin which covers nemo and at presampling they averaged 89 days old(12.7 weeks). my vet is on holidays in portugal so cant lean on him til he is back

do you think i should dose straight away when reading is at 400 or should i wait a week or two??

Nematodirus is very hard to handle this year, the dose only works for 24hrs(even ivermectins) and if there's a hatch the next day,,you have missed it and there seems to be a lot of hatch's....... don't know what's going on.
When doing FECs on worms, the eggs are on the grass and they're eaten and come through in the dung so you get good warning of the worms as the worms don't do much harm in the sheep until they are producing eggs, whereas (as far as I know) nemos hatch out on the grass and as soon as they go into the sheep the little buggers are doing huge harm before there's any evidence in the dung sample, so that's why I say we pounce on them as soon as we see anything at all.
Probably better to try out the oral ivermectin first....at least you know then ....and you can wait a week if you like..take it for granted that the FEC is 500 and work from there,
If you buy in sheep with resistant worms, you then have the problem....so that's probably where you got the problem even though you haven't used white or yellow wormers for years

razor8

rancher wrote: »

Nematodirus is very hard to handle this year, the dose only works for 24hrs(even ivermectins) and if there's a hatch the next day,,you have missed it and there seems to be a lot of hatch's....... don't know what's going on.
When doing FECs on worms, the eggs are on the grass and they're eaten and come through in the dung so you get good warning of the worms as the worms don't do much harm in the sheep until they are producing eggs, whereas (as far as I know) nemos hatch out on the grass and as soon as they go into the sheep the little buggers are doing huge harm before there's any evidence in the dung sample, so that's why I say we pounce on them as soon as we see anything at all.
Probably better to try out the oral ivermectin first....at least you know then ....and you can wait a week if you like..take it for granted that the FEC is 500 and work from there,
If you buy in sheep with resistant worms, you then have the problem....so that's probably where you got the problem even though you haven't used white or yellow wormers for years

your probably right about resistance, whenever i bought sheep i just dosed them and let them out so could be an issue there

the 24hrs for nemo is interesting, i didnt know that. would you be afraid of resistance if you keep doing so often to combat it?

i think il go with an oral ivermectin at the weekend, sample again and go from there

some really helpful info there, thanks

Conmaicne Mara

There's a bit in the Journal about FEC today.

Conmaicne Mara

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Lol, just have my results in my hand this minute.

Results of my PRE drench test:

Strongyle 250
Nemo 50
Coccidia Positive
Moniezia Positive (not surprising considering the shagging great tapeworm in one of the dungs!)
Lungworm Negative
Strongyloides Papillosus 50

Dosed all except for three lambs with Chanaverm Plus after test, will be sampling again tomorrow morning.

Off to consult with vet in the afternoon.

Results of my second test came just now, Negative for all of the above so happy out. The only suspect bit is negative for Coccidia as I hadn't given them anything for that before the second test so possibly non of the lambs sampled infected

razor8

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Results of my second test came just now, Negative for all of the above so happy out. The only suspect bit is negative for Coccidia as I hadn't given them anything for that before the second test so possibly non of the lambs sampled infected

your lambs must be thriving well so?

Conmaicne Mara

razor8 wrote: »

your lambs must be thriving well so?

From June 1 to July 1 I think they were doing 200g a day, 6kg gain on average. They're blackface twins mostly with a few cheviot/blackface cross. Trouble is they've been getting creep too (cut that out since), but they had come out of very tight grass. But I read a document on the (now gone) Teagasc hill farm in Lenane and I think I was beating their growth rates if I red it right). I'll weigh them again 1 August, see what the craic is.

I am not too happy with that. I am happy I seem to have no obvious problem with the FEC.

Some things I'll be changing will be selecting replacements and ewes I'll keep from those which were born/gave birth in the first 17 days of my lambing season, because my lambing spread is way too big and that may help up average weights if lambs come closer together in age in the future.

Grassland management is awkward here. My smartfences just arrived this morning so I'll have to get that all set up but a lot of my place has been grazed already, but not grazed out properly, that may help in the future.

Would like to buy a recorded ram for maternal traits but in the breeds I was considering Mayo/Connemara blackface, Blackface, Cheviot, that is proving difficult.

Lots to do!

pg141

Just looking at those smart denies and wondering how much they are?

Thanks

razor8

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

From June 1 to July 1 I think they were doing 200g a day, 6kg gain on average. They're blackface twins mostly with a few cheviot/blackface cross. Trouble is they've been getting creep too (cut that out since), but they had come out of very tight grass. But I read a document on the (now gone) Teagasc hill farm in Lenane and I think I was beating their growth rates if I red it right). I'll weigh them again 1 August, see what the craic is.

I am not too happy with that. I am happy I seem to have no obvious problem with the FEC.

Some things I'll be changing will be selecting replacements and ewes I'll keep from those which were born/gave birth in the first 17 days of my lambing season, because my lambing spread is way too big and that may help up average weights if lambs come closer together in age in the future.

Grassland management is awkward here. My smartfences just arrived this morning so I'll have to get that all set up but a lot of my place has been grazed already, but not grazed out properly, that may help in the future.

Would like to buy a recorded ram for maternal traits but in the breeds I was considering Mayo/Connemara blackface, Blackface, Cheviot, that is proving difficult.

Lots to do!

thats pretty good for the hill, my twins were averaging 300g for 10 weeks but dropped well back now. havent had a chance to weigh all again apart from a handful

Conmaicne Mara

razor8 wrote: »

thats pretty good for the hill, my twins were averaging 300g for 10 weeks but dropped well back now. havent had a chance to weigh all again apart from a handful

They're not on the hill :pac: Have them down in the fenced land, it's old pasture that was pretty bare for a while. The growth rate drops off after a certain number of weeks if I remember right.

Conmaicne Mara

pg141 wrote: »

Just looking at those smart denies and wondering how much they are?

Thanks

Paid €200 each for them from a German company, heard they're €250 here but I didn't confirm that.

pg141

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Paid €200 each for them from a German company, heard they're €250 here but I didn't confirm that.

Are they standard 100m lengths or can you get variable sizes? I assume it doesn't affect the fence if you only use like 50/60 m of fencing they look like a good job! How many did you buy to get that price, could you pm me the website where u bought them thanks

Conmaicne Mara

pg141 wrote: »

Are they standard 100m lengths or can you get variable sizes? I assume it doesn't affect the fence if you only use like 50/60 m of fencing they look like a good job! How many did you buy to get that price, could you pm me the website where u bought them thanks

Yes 100 meters, no other lengths yet that I am aware of, a longer version would be useful. I bought 2 of them. This is the site:

http://www.agrargigant.de/smartfence-t4100.html

They were slow to deliver though.

razor8

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

They're not on the hill :pac: Have them down in the fenced land, it's old pasture that was pretty bare for a while. The growth rate drops off after a certain number of weeks if I remember right.

sorry CM when i seen your breeds i assumed so!

yes weight drop off and more so for a week or two after weaning. Because grass was so bare in may i think it helped the quality of the grass no end

sold a few tonight 46kgs €114. was a very happy man leaving the mart

Conmaicne Mara

razor8 wrote: »

sorry CM when i seen your breeds i assumed so!

yes weight drop off and more so for a week or two after weaning. Because grass was so bare in may i think it helped the quality of the grass no end

sold a few tonight 46kgs €114. was a very happy man leaving the mart

My singles are on the hill, but I won't get a chance to weigh them until I shear. Couples stay at home, tried them on the hill one year, disaster.

€114, i'd say you were alright!

Did you dose again, will you do another FEC?

razor8

going to shear one batch of ewes and dose lambs tomorrow with cydectin oral, i will FEC them after to see what is happening

scald is becoming a problem in this dry weather also, hadnt footbathed all year but will have to tomorrow as well

razor8

Got my follow up results today after dosing with cydectin

Liver fluke = negative
Rumen fluke = negative
Worm count = 0 EPG
Nematodirus = 0 EPG
Coccidia = 1800 OPG
Moniezia = 700 EPG

Was told coccidia is high at 1800 OPG but don’t know how high. Were dosed twice with vecoxan and they are 18 weeks old now so don’t know if it an issue at this stage, vet will tell me more hopefully

Unsure on the moniezia as well, I didn’t think they had a big effect on lambs but maybe at this level it’s a different story

But am delighted to see no resistance to worms

Any observations welcomed?

tabby aspreme

Have never done a FEC sample , but always found lambs were very clean after cydectin

Username John

I must get an FEC done - I weighed some lambs this morning, as I had the ewes and lambs in...

Out of the few I weighed, they had either not put on any weight in the past week, or had gone back in weight :mad:

Will get an FEC done tomorrow hopefully, and dose em at the weekend... Sickening, as I had hoped to send off a few more next week, but that wont be happening for a while now... :mad:

I think I'll wean em all as well at the weekend - some of the ram lambs are getting a bit frisky. And I want to get the ewes baring down the paddocks after the lambs...
I know weaning will knock em back a bit more, but as it'll be a few weeks I'd say before I'll have a load of lambs ready for factory now, might as well...

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

Got my follow up results today after dosing with cydectin

Liver fluke = negative
Rumen fluke = negative
Worm count = 0 EPG
Nematodirus = 0 EPG
Coccidia = 1800 OPG
Moniezia = 700 EPG

Was told coccidia is high at 1800 OPG but don’t know how high. Were dosed twice with vecoxan and they are 18 weeks old now so don’t know if it an issue at this stage, vet will tell me more hopefully

Unsure on the moniezia as well, I didn’t think they had a big effect on lambs but maybe at this level it’s a different story

But am delighted to see no resistance to worms

Any observations welcomed?

How do they look...would have thought a count of 700 was high
Don't know what your vet will say but I'd like to treat for moniezia, cydectin doesn't kill them but I think a white dose (valbazen) will at the high rate ...any way ask your vet,
Don't know much about coccidia, doesn't seem to do any harm here even the few times we'd have it in the fec, but there is a harmless and a harmful strain.

rancher

Username John wrote: »

I must get an FEC done - I weighed some lambs this morning, as I had the ewes and lambs in...

Out of the few I weighed, they had either not put on any weight in the past week, or had gone back in weight :mad:

Will get an FEC done tomorrow hopefully, and dose em at the weekend... Sickening, as I had hoped to send off a few more next week, but that wont be happening for a while now... :mad:

I think I'll wean em all as well at the weekend - some of the ram lambs are getting a bit frisky. And I want to get the ewes baring down the paddocks after the lambs...
I know weaning will knock em back a bit more, but as it'll be a few weeks I'd say before I'll have a load of lambs ready for factory now, might as well...

most groups here only doing 200-220 gms/day 1.5kgs week so only weighing every three weeks,,,they're very slow.
would agree with weaning, lambs getting the paddocks first and not having to clean them off is a huge help to thrive

razor8

rancher wrote: »

How do they look...would have thought a count of 700 was high
Don't know what your vet will say but I'd like to treat for moniezia, cydectin doesn't kill them but I think a white dose (valbazen) will at the high rate ...any way ask your vet,
Don't know much about coccidia, doesn't seem to do any harm here even the few times we'd have it in the fec, but there is a harmless and a harmful strain.

in general they look very good and averaging about 200g a day, the wool looks good (got 3 shots of minerals) and should have another good pick for sale in two weeks
draft i sold monday had a few lambs lacking flesh but were the weight but this is normal for suff mules. my charlaois lambs are spot on

thanks for the valbazen recommendation

eire23

Quick heads up for anyone that doses for coccidia.

Got a text of Magenta that they are doing a offer of 5 litres of vercoxan for 360 EURO. The expiry date is up soon on it the text says but i persume it would still be alright for the farmer?, just that they cant sell it after the expiry date.

Might be of use to someone on here that doses for it

ganmo

you can't record the use of expired dose in bord bia book

eire23

ganmo wrote: »

you can't record the use of expired dose in bord bia book

Your right indeed ganmo, suppose it all depends when the expiry date is up. If you could use it before it expires its good value as 1 litre is 112 euro

Conmaicne Mara

Just home from our STAP meeting. Apparently national results of the STAP FEC's from last year indicate a much larger problem than anticipated with drench resistance. Our own group had quite good results, I suspect it's due to the grazing on the hills.

J.O. Farmer

eire23 wrote: »

Your right indeed ganmo, suppose it all depends when the expiry date is up. If you could use it before it expires its good value as 1 litre is 112 euro

The dose should be fine for a while beyond the expiry date. It just wouldn't want to be documented it was used then. ;-)

grassroot1

The testing is the problem area our lambs showed up not worm eggs (zero) before and after testing. I would not read in too much to the report in the journal, just lads trying to justify the expence they put farmers to

Conmaicne Mara

grassroot1 wrote: »

The testing is the problem area our lambs showed up not worm eggs (zero) before and after testing. I would not read in too much to the report in the journal, just lads trying to justify the expence they put farmers to

I don't think so, there are significant problems if you ask NZ farmers, to the point where chemists need to specially mix different drug families to get worm doses to work at all.

I found the test good and intend to do more testing. Prefer to know I don't have an issue and not treat for it, than throwing money back a lambs throat when it's either not needed or it won't work.

Will be trying out a white (forgotten the technical name right now, tired) wormer this year. Used Chanaverm + last year and test says it's effective on my farm.

grassroot1

No con I am not disagreeing with the need for testing, we get ours done as routine saves a lot of money but the lab we use did not have the experience.
The department has used these tests for the figures in their survey and I have not confidence in them.

Conmaicne Mara

Just home from our STAP meeting, a bit on coccidiosis. I acted in haste last year on the above FEC results and bought vecoxan. Apparently there was no need to as after ten weeks of age lambs have developed an immunity to coccidiosis. Dosing them with vecoxan when there's no need to hurts their immunity to it.

Username John

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Just home from our STAP meeting, a bit on coccidiosis. I acted in haste last year on the above FEC results and bought vecoxan. Apparently there was no need to as after ten weeks of age lambs have developed an immunity to coccidiosis. Dosing them with vecoxan when there's no need to hurts their immunity to it.

I disagree - had older lambs get a bad dose of coccidia last summer in the dry weather.

FEC done mid august on march born lambs gave a result of "Coccidia - TNTC" (TNTC = too numerous to count)

razor8

Username John wrote: »

I disagree - had older lambs get a bad dose of coccidia last summer in the dry weather.

FEC done mid august on march born lambs gave a result of "Coccidia - TNTC" (TNTC = too numerous to count)

Agreed but I would think if they are clean up to 10 weeks then they are ok, but if they are dirty at 5/8 weeks and not done until 10 it will build up over that time.

Like yourself UJ I had lambs with it last year into August, some needed two doses, it's something that needs to be tackled early to prevent massive build ups, will be keeping a watchful eyes from now on and fec if they show signs

eire23

Dung sampled my replacement ewe lambs during the week and they came back 150 for strongyle and 200 for nemotidirus.
What are peoples thoughts on this, would they need a dose? Been 5-6 weeks since their last dose.

rangler1

eire23 wrote: »

Dung sampled my replacement ewe lambs during the week and they came back 150 for strongyle and 200 for nemotidirus.
What are peoples thoughts on this, would they need a dose? Been 5-6 weeks since their last dose.

150 is low for strongyle, we don't dose till they're 500, but we do dose if there's any nematodirus present.
Opinions differ, Teagasc say that nema only affects them up to 10-12 weeks,
yet we get farmers coming here with dung samples saying they have lost a few older lambs and the lab diagnosed nematodirus and there could be a good few deaths in a few days, hopefully greysides will advise

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

150 is low for strongyle, we don't dose till they're 500, but we do dose if there's any nematodirus present.
Opinions differ, Teagasc say that nema only affects them up to 10-12 weeks,
yet we get farmers coming here with dung samples saying they have lost a few older lambs and the lab diagnosed nematodirus and there could be a good few deaths in a few days, hopefully greysides will advise

My vet recommended dosing at over 300 for Strongyle, always worked off the 500 previously what do people think? My sample this week came back with Cocci oocysts present as they are just 14 weeks is it correct not to dose as immunity should be present? Also had Moniezia expansa eggs present.

greysides

rangler1 wrote: »

150 is low for strongyle, we don't dose till they're 500, but we do dose if there's any nematodirus present.
Opinions differ, Teagasc say that nema only affects them up to 10-12 weeks,
yet we get farmers coming here with dung samples saying they have lost a few older lambs and the lab diagnosed nematodirus and there could be a good few deaths in a few days, hopefully greysides will advise

Just read through this thread. While I personally like sheep I deal very little with them so I'm not as up to date as I might otherwise be. Just bear that in mind with my comments, bring up anything that doesn't smell right and I'll check it out as best as possible.

To give my opinion on the above: I would be dubious about ascribing an age to when animals are no longer affected by one species or another. There may be rules of thumb but the exceptions can be significant. Nematodirus is known to affect animals outside of the normal spring time. Immunity to coccidia will depend on exposure so what happens if exposure occurs at an older age than normal?

Vecoxan is a preventative. It works similarly to Imizol for Redwater. Stops the organism in it's tracks without killing it while the immune system catches up and takes over. An effect like vaccination but without any immune-generating material in the medicine. This means that the environment must provide the material. Mistiming the administration means its' effects may be over before exposure occurs, or its' given too late and ..... it's not a treatment.

Another confounding issue with coccidia is that not all species present in an animal are pathogenic. Some of those counts may well be counting eggs from apathogenic species. The lab has/may have a way to differentiate the species but that's not done as standard.

Just to pick up a point made earlier, the eggs when they leave the animal develop on the ground and hatch to produce an L1 larva which develops into an L2. The L2 live in the droplets of moisture on grass, rising and falling on the blade of grass as the heat of the day develops and wanes. They are ingested with the grass.

Moniezia species are generally regarded as apathogenic but no doubt there may be exceptions too. They are not the tapeworm picked up from dogs which exists in sheep in a 'juvenile' form; they are in sheep in an 'adult' form, the intermediate host is an Orbatid pasture mite living in the grass matt.

eire23

rangler1 wrote: »

150 is low for strongyle, we don't dose till they're 500, but we do dose if there's any nematodirus present.
Opinions differ, Teagasc say that nema only affects them up to 10-12 weeks,
yet we get farmers coming here with dung samples saying they have lost a few older lambs and the lab diagnosed nematodirus and there could be a good few deaths in a few days, hopefully greysides will advise

Might as well give them a dose so, cheers rangler

rangler1

eire23 wrote: »

Might as well give them a dose so, cheers rangler

As I say your strongyle is low for 5 or 6 weeks dosed....did you use cydectin or are you grazing them with cattle.
200 is a high count for Nematodirus. Teagasc say they should have immunity at that age
We're probably too particular

eire23

rangler1 wrote: »

As I say your strongyle is low for 5 or 6 weeks dosed....did you use cydectin or are you grazing them with cattle.
200 is a high count for Nematodirus. Teagasc say they should have immunity at that age
We're probably too particular

No only sheep here, no cattle at all. They got a white drench last time,oxfencare i think it was. Meant to have been a clear drench but had none to hand so went with the white, would you go with a yellow drench now and leave the clear one till later on?

rangler1

eire23 wrote: »

No only sheep here, no cattle at all. They got a white drench last time,oxfencare i think it was. Meant to have been a clear drench but had none to hand so went with the white, would you go with a yellow drench now and leave the clear one till later on?

First drench of the year here is a cheap white dose every year ( targeting nematodirus only in may) after that we stick to whatever dose is set for that year, it's the turn of the clear dose here this year, next year we'll use the white right through the year, just simpler that way.
But switching them in the year works the same, any of them will work on nematodirus so just use the cheapest, might be better to leave the clear till last when there'd be more strongyle about