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Anyone else sick of ad hominin attacks in Irish politics?

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    #32
    ILikeFriday
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭ILikeFriday


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Nobody here seems to be protesting that the opposition's "rights" were denied.

    Most people appear to be making the point that the citizens' have a legitimate expectation of hearing questions raised by our representatives and be appropriately answered by our representatives.

    "Freedom of expression" has to be balanced with the right of the people to a functional democracy, although I believe you are the one who raised the 'rights' issue.

    Actually, another poster asked what sort of debate there would be if ad hominem attacks were allowed (as if they aren't/shouldn't be) so discussing rights is relevant when we are talking about what is allowed. I was far from the only one mentioning rights. Read the thread.

    And what specificually are you suggestiong a functional democracy entails that should be balanced against freedom of expression?


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    #33
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    ILikeFriday wrote: »
    Actually, another poster asked what sort of debate there would be if ad hominem attacks were allowed (as if they aren't/shouldn't be) so discussing rights is relevant when we are talking about what is allowed.
    That seems to me to be a discussion about expectations. The poster has not claimed that any of his or another's human or civil or constitutional or legal rights are being violated. That is an argument you have raised all by yourself, i.e. a strawman.


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    #34
    ILikeFriday
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭ILikeFriday


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    That seems to me to be a discussion about expectations. The poster has not claimed that any of his or another's human or civil or constitutional or legal rights are being violated. That is an argument you have raised all by yourself, i.e. a strawman.

    I have never argued that anyone said any human, civil or constitutional legal rights are being violated. I just reminded people that there is no "right" to a respectful serious answer, because the tone of the thread seemed to be going along the line that they should get one. It is a relevant point to make that politicians do not have to do it in discussing whether or not they should.


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    #35
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    ILikeFriday wrote: »
    I just reminded people that there is no "right" to a respectful serious answer, because the tone of the thread seemed to be going along the line that they should get one. It is a relevant point to make that politicians do not have to do it in discussing whether or not they should.
    It's plainly a straw man. People are discussing their legitimate expectations of grown ups. I don;t think we need reminders about the law if it's not relevant. I'll let you have the last word because i don't think there's anything more to add.


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    #36
    ILikeFriday
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭ILikeFriday


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    It's plainly a straw man. People are discussing their legitimate expectations of grown ups. I don;t think we need reminders about the law if it's not relevant. I'll let you have the last word because i don't think there's anything more to add.

    I think it is relevant to discuss what a persons obligations are in assessing their standard of behaviour. It's a sort of benchmark.

    Thanks for "letting me have the last word."


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    #37
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Godge wrote: »
    An internet forum trying to control free speech?

    If Enda Kenny stands up in the Dail every day and reminds us of the murderers in Sinn Fein and the economy-wreckers in FF, then he is doing the country a favour. If the people get tired of it, they will vote him out in the next election.

    fine gael and labour have dark histories too you know or did you not know this?


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    #38
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    renegademaster wrote: »
    fine gael and labour have dark histories too you know or did you not know this?

    Of course they do. Only recently they spent millions entertaining the heads of the British and American armed forces. Two nations renowned for their peace and love.


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    #39
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Would it be considered an ad hominem attack to point out the misspelling of ad hominem in the thread title?:confused:


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    #40
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    renegademaster wrote: »
    fine gael and labour have dark histories too you know or did you not know this?
    Difference is neither Dev or Mick are still alive while SF murderers are.


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    #41
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Would it be considered an ad hominem attack to point out the misspelling of ad hominem in the thread title?:confused:

    No just scientific ignorance (something grammer bullies don't really care about. I refer to the order hominin which means primate. That includes man :)


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    #42
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No just scientific ignorance (something grammer bullies don't really care about. I refer to the order hominin which means primate. That includes man :)

    Surely you mean Hominini :confused:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominini


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    #43
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Surely you mean Hominini :confused:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominini

    Plural and hominin is also used bud.


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    #44
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Plural and hominin is also used bud.

    Touche,

    But in the context of the thread one makes sense and the other doesn't:confused:


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    #45
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Touche,

    But in the context of the thread one makes sense and the other doesn't:confused:

    What doesn't make sense is four posts about spelling.


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    #46
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    What doesn't make sense is four posts about spelling.

    I know!....curse these quiet Fridays ;)


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    #47
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Difference is neither Dev or Mick are still alive while SF murderers are.

    No..but Gilmore and Rabbit are. And kenny et all have no problem sucking up to US and UK killing machines.


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    #48
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    EURATS wrote: »
    No..but Gilmore and Rabbit are. And kenny et all have no problem sucking up to US and UK killing machines.
    A very big aspect of diplomacy is being polite to people you may personally find distasteful. Unless Kenny himself is the killing machine the comparison is nonexistence.


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    #49
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    A very big aspect of diplomacy is being polite to people you may personally find distasteful. Unless Kenny himself is the killing machine the comparison is nonexistence.

    Show me your company and ill tell you what you are!


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    #50
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    I think, while it is important to answer the question, it is also good idea to remind others of their recent past record if it is relevant, to keep hipocracy in check.

    For example if an opposition party is complaining about special needs cuts , but recently cut their own special needs budgets when in government , then they should be reminded of this. This should not allow the government to sidestep a question. They should be held accountable in their own right.


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    #51
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    EURATS wrote: »
    Show me your company and ill tell you what you are!
    That you base your opinion of the most politically powerful man in the country on a childish proverb is frankly scary.

    Anyway by that definition we can condemn all of SF as they keep the company of numerous terrorists.


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    #52
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    That you base your opinion of the most politically powerful man in the country on a childish proverb is frankly scary.

    Anyway by that definition we can condemn all of SF as they keep the company of numerous terrorists.

    That individual got in as a punishment vote for Fianna Fáil. Certainly not on his merits.
    As for SF...u and those like u..already tar them all with the same brush while choosing to ignore your own bed buddies pasts.


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    #53
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    EURATS wrote: »
    That individual got in as a punishment vote for Fianna Fáil. Certainly not on his merits.
    As for SF...u and those like u..already tar them all with the same brush while choosing to ignore your own bed buddies pasts.
    Tar them with the same brush? As you say yourself.

    "Show me their company and I'll tell you what they are"

    Not that I even do consider them all murdering scumbags. It's just that voting for the good ones, like Mary Lou or Pearse helps the murdering scumbags too.


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    #54
    EURATS
    Registered Users Posts: 528 ✭✭✭EURATS


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Tar them with the same brush? As you say yourself.

    "Show me their company and I'll tell you what they are"

    Not that I even do consider them all murdering scumbags. It's just that voting for the good ones helps the murdering scumbags too.


    Eh....yeah. Still frozen. Slán anois.


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    #55
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    EURATS wrote: »
    Eh....yeah. Still frozen. Slán anois.
    Very original. :rolleyes:


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    #56
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    Enda uses this tactic because without his advisors prompting him he ofton finds himself unable to answer the hard questions.

    It was no accident that he kept a somewhat low profile during the election.

    Indeed and I would even suggest that 'low profile' is probably even an understatement.


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    #57
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Godge wrote: »
    If Enda Kenny stands up in the Dail every day and reminds us of the murderers in Sinn Fein and the economy-wreckers in FF, then he is doing the country a favour.

    Would it be also your opinion that opposition party TDs and independent TDs should stand up in the Dail every day and remind us of all the past indiscretions by any members of the government, even if those indiscretions included racist comments? Do you also think that they would be doing the country a favour?


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    #58
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    darkhorse wrote: »
    Would it be also your opinion that opposition party TDs and independent TDs should stand up in the Dail every day and remind us of all the past indiscretions by any members of the government, even if those indiscretions included racist comments? Do you also think that they would be doing the country a favour?

    I think a distinction should be made between personal and party traits.

    For example ( using your fictitious example ), if a party policy was to be racist and they are complaining about racist policies then that should be mentioned in a debate on racism

    Another fictitious example would be if a party had a policy of taking money from developers and putting it into their wifes bank accounts then they should be reminded of this if complaining about legislation against this type of thing

    In every case it should be relevant to the debate.


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