The banks are screwing over current account holders, and here's why...

seamus

...because we let them.

AIB & Bank of Ireland, the two "pillar banks" (hah) of Ireland as we know have been raising their fees at regular intervals over the last couple of years, slowly bringing everyone into the loop so you will pay current account fees no matter what your circumstances. BoI who were initially insistent that they were just trying to combat people who weren't really using their account have recently brought in a flat rate fee that is unavoidable, no matter how much business you do or how much money you lodge. Finally revealing that what they really want is to use your money to earn interest and to also charge you for the privilege. Having their cake and eating it too.

AIB have become equally restrictive and it'll be a matter of months before they too move to the same place as BoI.

We spit feathers about this, there's a huge thread on the BoI forum every time the fees change, and yet the complaints are ignored. Why? Because for all our complaining and ranting, we don't actually do anything about it. Statistics about this stuff are hard to come by. Banks tend not to release any survey information because they know that banking consistently rates as the sector with one of the worst customer satisfaction ratings of any industry. Banks maintain the status quo, particularly in Ireland, by using cartel-esque policies where all banks are equally poor at what they do and they don't spend much effort competing.

In a nine-month period from Oct 10 to June 11, just 6,000 Irish people switched their current account. This despite a later survey showing that less than half of people would recommend their current bank. Yet 90 percent of people said they had no desire to leave their current bank. This makes no sense.

So banks continue to shaft us purely because they know that we'll do nothing about it. We let them do it and we stay with them despite it.

So do something about it. Switch. One of the more wonderful EU initiatives was a requirement to provide a simple switching mechanism for all customers. Effectively a "redirect" is set up on your old bank account, so any direct debits or standing orders don't go unpaid and ruin your credit history, instead they get sent to your new bank account.
So all the banks are pretty ****, but the smaller banks are trying to compete and are offering better deals. If everyone starts switching for the better deals, then all of the banks will be forced to innovate, to offer better choices.

Here's a good review of what's available:
http://www.bonkers.ie/blog/the-best-current-accounts-in-ireland---the-bonkers-ie-review/

When AIB & BoI raise their fees again, and they will, remember; If you won't switch, then don't bitch. Whatever reasons they give for the increases are bull. They do it because they can. Because we let them. So it's time to take the power back, force banks to shift from their 1970s mindsets to a 21st century one where companies compete for their customers.

ardmacha

I'd switch if some other bank give me some certainty about what charges regime will exist for a 3/5 year period. No point switching if the other bank then jacks up charges 3 months later.

seamus

ardmacha wrote: »

I'd switch if some other bank give me some certainty about what charges regime will exist for a 3/5 year period. No point switching if the other bank then jacks up charges 3 months later.

Why not? If your new bank ups their fees, then switch again. Don't let yourself be charged fees just because you can't be arsed. This is exactly what the banks rely on.

RDM_83 again

Yeah but there's a problem in switching to the cheapest bank because its really really useful to be able to actually visit a branch (we are still very cash based). And as others have said banks tend to put charges on a few months after their competitors.

mikemac1

Wasn't there some stat that over your lifetime you are more likely to get divorced then to leave your bank.

I don't have a link but I heard that somewhere years ago and I fully believe it

seamus

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Yeah but there's a problem in switching to the cheapest bank because its really really useful to be able to actually visit a branch (we are still very cash based). And as others have said banks tend to put charges on a few months after their competitors.

We need to break this mindset. The only reason I go near a bank anymore is to cash in my coins. BoI won't even do drafts under €500 anymore.

I get my money from the ATM and all my money is transferred online or in cash. Insist that people pay you by transfer, refuse cheques. Smartphone usage in Ireland is at something ridiculous like 70%, there are no good reasons to continue using cheques and large sums of cash. If your granny gives you a cheque, then mail it to your branch to lodge it. How often do you actually need to go into your bank versus how much you go just because it's there? And how much time do you waste getting there and queueing versus the 2 minutes it takes to do this online or get the cash from an ATM?

Wasn't there some stat that over your lifetime you are more likely to get divorced then to leave your bank.

I don't have a link but I heard that somewhere years ago and I fully believe it

It popped up on reddit a couple of days back, which actually inspired this thread but as far as I can tell, it's a slightly dubious statistic from the UK. Based around the idea that switching rates in 2008 were so small that on average a person would change bank account every 26 years, but would change spouse every 23 years or something. It wasn't really comparing like with like, but it has changed since, switching rates have risen in the UK. They've risen here too, but in Ireland the land where we complain in private and smile in public, I imagine the switching rates are still in the low single digits, if not less than 1%.

The Backwards Man

The problem for a lot of us is we are dependent on cash. If a bank doesn't have a physical branch that you can walk into within ten miles, it's not an option for a lot of people.

howamidifferent

I've an appointment next wednesday with PTSB to move my account of 30 years over from AIB. Sick of the charges. :mad:

The Backwards Man

seamus wrote: »

We need to break this mindset. The only reason I go near a bank anymore is to cash in my coins. BoI won't even do drafts under €500 anymore.

I get my money from the ATM and all my money is transferred online or in cash. Insist that people pay you by transfer, refuse cheques. Smartphone usage in Ireland is at something ridiculous like 70%, there are no good reasons to continue using cheques and large sums of cash. If your granny gives you a cheque, then mail it to your branch to lodge it. How often do you actually need to go into your bank versus how much you go just because it's there. And how much time do you waste getting there and queueing versus the 2 minutes it takes to do this online or get the cash from an ATM.

Banning ATMs would be a better idea. Once the cash comes out of the wall it has to go back into the system somewhere, sometime

mikemac1

I opened a PTSB account last week. Just waiting on my card and PIN in the post and I'll shut down the AIB account in a few days.

I like the staff in the AIB branch, very helpful and it's sad to see so many branches closing.

But AIB ATM fees are 20c now and going to 35c in August and enough is enough!

They will keep jacking up the fees and testing resistance until enough people leave. 35c in August, it'll probably be 50c in 2014

Wacker The Attacker

I have to clear a loan. Once this has been done I'll maintain a bank account only to lodge cheques. Otherwise they can f**k off.

On the other hand. Have you considered the inconvenience of not having a bank account of some description.

RDM_83 again

seamus wrote: »

We need to break this mindset. The only reason I go near a bank anymore is to cash in my coins. BoI won't even do drafts under €500 anymore.

I get my money from the ATM and all my money is transferred online or in cash. Insist that people pay you by transfer, refuse cheques. Smartphone usage in Ireland is at something ridiculous like 70%, there are no good reasons to continue using cheques and large sums of cash. If your granny gives you a cheque, then mail it to your branch to lodge it. How often do you actually need to go into your bank versus how much you go just because it's there? And how much time do you waste getting there and queueing versus the 2 minutes it takes to do this online or get the cash from an ATM?
/QUOTE]

Thats kind of hard to do if your on the dole and receiving all your money in cash form from the post office, or a lot of other situations where you might regularly receive cash.
AIB customers can lodge money at the post office but thats not much use since they are a fee charging bank.

mikemac1

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

On the other hand. Have you considered the inconvenience of not having a bank account of some description.

Our Minister for Finance Bertie Ahern managed ok without a bank account

msg11

The way I look at it, I wanted to move to PTSB there at 1500 I get paid 1200 P/M , Ulster Bank charge 4 Euro P/M for my account. Is there a point in moving, as someone said, PTSB are planning to introduce more charges down the line.

Why can't one of the banks just offer free banking?

I find it amazing that I give the banks my money to make some money and this is not good for them. I can do nothing about how I am paid, all I am waiting for is http://www.readyforsepa.ie/ then I will go with a free bank in the UK , if the Irish banks don't want my money in return for free banking then the UK banks can have it.

What's even worse is I am with Ulster Bank, in the UK and NI there current accounts are free. The people of Ireland are been taking for a ride by the banks big style. The banks are actully working like a pack of dogs against the people of Ireland amazing how they all introduce charges at the same time and I don't believe in coincidences.

What is going to happen is this country will crash and the banks will be full of cash, but the people won't have a cent in there pocket to spend any decent amounts of money to keep business going !

Wacker The Attacker

mikemac1 wrote: »

Our Minister for Finance Bertie Ahern managed ok without a bank account

D'ya reckon?

ToxicPaddy

msg11 wrote: »

The way I look at it, I wanted to move to PTSB there at 1500 I get paid 1200 P/M , Ulster Bank charge 4 Euro P/M for my account. Is there a point in moving, as someone said, PTSB are planning to introduce more charges down the line.

Why can't one of the banks just offer free banking?

I find it amazing that I give the banks my money to make some money and this is not good for them. I can do nothing about how I am paid, all I am waiting for is http://www.readyforsepa.ie/ then I will go with a free bank in the UK , if the Irish banks don't want my money in return for free banking then the UK banks can have it.

What's even worse is I am with Ulster Bank, in the UK and NI there current accounts are free. The people of Ireland are been taking for a ride by the banks big style. The banks are actully working like a pack of dogs against the people of Ireland amazing how they all introduce charges at the same time and I don't believe in coincidences.

What is going to happen is this country will crash and the banks will be full of cash, but the people won't have a cent in there pocket to spend any decent amounts of money to keep business going !

Will you be able to use SEPA for every day banking though?

From the very little info on that site it just seems to standardise payments between EU based banks.

dotsman

When the fcuk are people going to grow up?

We bitch about how the banks wrecked the economy (only a small part of the big picture), yet we then bitch when they try to fix things.

We want, we need, the banks to return to making profits from day-to-day banking and not force them down the road of high risk lending which is what happened a decade ago when the first "free" banking offers were introduced.

It's called a loss-leader for a reason - the plan was to lose a lot by offering daily banking for free, but make an even bigger profit on the lending side. It didn't turn out well for the banks. It didn't turn out well for the customers. It didn't turn out well for the country. Why the politicians/regulator don't have the balls to reign in PTSB (the ultimate zombie bank) and force them to return to viability instead of pumping in taxpayers money just to subsidise people's daily banking (and hinder the recovery of the 2 pillar banks) is beyond me.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

If you dont want to pay for a service don't use it!
Would you expect your electricity provider to let you off the "Standing Charge" or your TV provider to give you the movie and sports channels for free?

fits

I am living abroad and have a bank account here. A lot of money was still going through my BOI account but that is going to change. No way I am paying these charges.

looking_around

thing is though, you cant get paid from work in cash >.>

zxce

Nearly wasn't a word about this but the other day euro finance ministers approved plan for taking anything over €100,000 from peoples accounts across the euro zone when their banks get in bother. Only really CNN ran with it.

http://www.infowars.com/new-eu-plan-will-make-every-bank-account-in-europe-vulnerable-to-cyprus-style-wealth-confiscation/

Don't bother complaining to them either, they've set up the email system in Brussels to easily block a surge in "annoying" emails if something annoys the lesser folk.

zxce

zxce wrote: »

Nearly wasn't a word about this but the other day euro finance ministers approved plan for taking anything over €100,000 from peoples accounts across the euro zone when their banks get in bother. Only really CNN ran with it.

http://www.infowars.com/new-eu-plan-will-make-every-bank-account-in-europe-vulnerable-to-cyprus-style-wealth-confiscation/

Don't bother complaining to them either, they've set up the email system in Brussels to easily block a surge in "annoying" emails if something annoys the lesser folk.

I was quite angry about that, to be honest.
It's one thing to say "the bank failed, you lost your money". It's quite another to say "we've decided to help ourselves to your money, just because"
Obviously the easy answer is to diversify, but the principle of this is very scary and wrong

Cee-Jay-Cee

I was initially with TSB and changed to Ulster then to AiB and now I'm with BoI. I have no where left too go. Danske isn't an option as I firmly believe they'll pull the pin on theIr Irish operation in the next few years.

YellowFeather

CJC999 wrote: »

I was initially with TSB and changed to Ulster then to AiB and now I'm with BoI. I have no where left too go. Danske isn't an option as I firmly believe they'll pull the pin on theIr Irish operation in the next few years.

Back to PTSB.

looking_around

switch back to ulster..at least it can be possible to avoid their charges

Sirsok

It's a business that charges for a vast amount of services, I don't see the problem?

cooperguy

I moved to PTSB recently. It was very easy and now I have free fees again!

If PTSB see they are getting more customers they will keep free fees. They have been making it easier to get free fees not harder.

The amount of people that don't switch because "it's too much hassle"

It's fcuk all hassle.


Fantastic post OP btw. I think alot of people just aren't aware how easy it is to switch.

People look for value in all other products, clothes, groceries etc, banks shouldn't be any different..

CJC999

CJC999 wrote: »

I was initially with TSB and changed to Ulster then to AiB and now I'm with BoI. I have no where left too go. Danske isn't an option as I firmly believe they'll pull the pin on theIr Irish operation in the next few years.

Are you barred or something?

Realtine

ardmacha wrote: »

I'd switch if some other bank give me some certainty about what charges regime will exist for a 3/5 year period. No point switching if the other bank then jacks up charges 3 months later.

THIS.

Would love to move from BOI - Absolutely sick of having so much money raided from my account every quarter - (80€ last week just wiped out) would love to move to PTSB if only there was a guarantee that at least for 2 years the account conditions would not change. Closing my UB account soon as just can't trust them not to screw up again - really fecked me up last time - and I keep the account open but with nothing in it it's just costing money now every month.
Sick of them all.

Sirsok

rarnes1 wrote: »

The amount of people that don't switch because "it's too much hassle"

It's fcuk all hassle.


Fantastic post OP btw. I think alot of people just aren't aware how easy it is to switch.

People look for value in all other products, clothes, groceries etc, banks shouldn't be any different..

Value doesn't come in terms of just price though? I am not aware of any other bank but I'm with boi since 16 and they have a great online facility, if I'm ever anywhere else in the country I know there is a branch near by should I need it....people tend to let alot of things bother them that shouldn't tbh, as the above post said if your not happy then move, don't be moaning about it!

Sirsok

Sirsok wrote: »

Value doesn't come in terms of just price though? I am not aware of any other bank but I'm with boi since 16 and they have a great online facility, if I'm ever anywhere else in the country I know there is a branch near by should I need it....people tend to let alot of things bother them that shouldn't tbh, as the above post said if your not happy then move, don't be moaning about it!

Not moaning, trying to give advice if you bothered to read the post.

Was with BOI, AIB and Ulster. I could do all the same things online with all of them btw. I've probably set foot in a bank 3/4 times in the last 5 years.

zxce

https://www.permanenttsb.ie/whatweoffer/current-accounts/current-account/

http://www.ulsterbank.ie/roi/personal/daily-banking/current-accounts/new-customers/switch.ashx

Switch to either, much the same.

kkelly77

When I switched to PTSB from BoI a few years ago because of charges, Bank Of Ireland charged me €8 to close my account :eek:

This was the one and only time I've ever caused a 'scene' in public

NuckingFacker

I went into the launderette to wash some clothes and the feckers charged me for doing it! I am outraged and am going to change launderette tomorrow. The baxters.

fergiesfolly

While the launderette were washing your clothes, did they rent them out to other customers at a much larger fee than they charged you to wash them.

dotsman

fergiesfolly wrote: »

While the launderette were washing your clothes, did they rent them out to other customers at a much larger fee than they charged you to wash them.

No, did the banks make any money lending out the few quid in your current account?

johnnyskeleton

While I agree with you that everyone should switch to free fees (I moved from aib to ptsb a few months ago and it was great), dont forget that current account fees are for the service that is provided and it is not something that you're entitled to for free. All banks offer a basic free deposit account which you can deposit / withdraw by going into the branch. If you want ATMs, overdrafts, cheques, direct debits, Internet banking etc, all these things cost money and so it is not that aib/boi are wrong to charge for those services, but that ptsb are offering a great deal by giving the free banking.

NuckingFacker

fergiesfolly wrote: »

While the launderette were washing your clothes, did they rent them out to other customers at a much larger fee than they charged you to wash them.

If you have sufficent funds in your accounts, they don't charge you the fees. I don't pay any. They give me a nice chunk of interest at the end of each year as it happens. You want a service, but don't want to pay for it. Keep it under the mattress - that's free.

Sh1tbag OToole

is it unusual or hard to just use the credit union for everything? i have an account with them but no atm card or debit card though they do offer them

i closed my bank of ireland account after getting charged a load of fees for bounced direct debits i should have cancelled. i hate direct debit anyway. tool of the devil


will people look at me funny and like im some sort of luddite or eco warrior when i tell them im not signed up with a big commercial bank?

fergiesfolly

dotsman wrote: »

No, did the banks make any money lending out the few quid in your current account?

No. They did out of the goodness of their hearts.
And what do you mean " few"?

dotsman

fergiesfolly wrote: »

No. They did out of the goodness of their hearts.
And what do you mean " few"?

If you have sufficient funds in your current account that they can actually make some money out of lending, then they don't charge you. If you only have a few quid, then you are charged. It's that simple.

Cookie_Monster

dotsman wrote: »

If you have sufficient funds in your current account that they can actually make some money out of lending, then they don't charge you. If you only have a few quid, then you are charged. It's that simple.

they make money off all of it regardless. It's just lumped together with everyone else account.

wandatowell

35c per transaction from an ATM.




F*ck me. I've got me 2 PTSB "free" accounts, loving it.

clairefontaine

I ping pong bank accounts all the time.

Banks are a service, but you are still the consumer.

They can't lend without your money in their vaults.

seamus

dotsman wrote: »

If you have sufficient funds in your current account that they can actually make some money out of lending, then they don't charge you. If you only have a few quid, then you are charged. It's that simple.

Bank of Ireland now charge no matter how much you have in your account.

I'm not necessarily saying that we're entitled to free banking and that we should oppose charges in all their forms. The problem is that at a time when the cost of being a bank is plummetting - the cost of IT infrastructure comes down all the time, and staff costs have dropped - the banks are cutting services and increasing their charges. The customers are getting nothing back and the banks are treating them like cash cows. Even though the banks are reliant on those customers keeping money in their bank. They do this because they know their customers won't leave.

While it would be true to say that free current accounts were loss leaders, they don't cost the bank lots. You don't give away expensive items as a loss leader. That's stupidity. Loss leaders are items which are inexpensive or which have a small margin. You make a small loss on them to make big gains on the items which have big margins. In this case, savings and loan.

The banks cannot make good money out of current account fees. It just doesn't work that way. Unless the bank starts taking half of your salary out of your account, they cannot plug their debts with current account fees. These fees are a token "I'm doing something", to avoid tackling the elephant in the room - the banking system is broken because banks are not facilitating saving or lending, and until they do there is no hope of any form of recovery.

Saving and lending is stuck in the 1970s. They still operate on a timescale of weeks, in a modern environment where there's no reason that they can't operate on a timescale of days. If I told my bank today I needed €1k to cover me next week because I'm changing jobs and I have a weeks' gap, I would first be asked to come in and fill out a pile of paperwork, then two weeks later I would be turned away because I'm changing jobs. That makes no sense. There is no reason why that can't be turned around in 24 hours without requiring my physical presence. And I'm clearly a good loan, there's no reason not to provide that funding.

High-risk lending is not what caused the banking collapse. Inappropriately priced lending is what caused the collapse. Credit Cards are high-risk lending - the fraud and default rates on credit cards are huge. Yet these companies are still raking it in. Why? Because they price their products appropriately. In a world where my bank that I have been with for 13 years and never once gone to zero or had an overdraft, will turn me away for a €30k car loan, but a finance company will happily give it to me, there's something wrong.

Banking is fundamentally broken, because the banks are not banking. The processes that they've been using are built for a different era, they just don't work in the modern age. The only way out is to innovate. Provide modern services to customers, incentivise saving and borrowing by making them easy. Until that happens, all of the current account fees in the world will do nothing except make the public hate you even more. Even if BoI had 2m customers, charging them €12 per quarter will bring in less than €100m per year. What are the banks debts? Tens of billions, right? You might as well use kitchen towels to try empty a swimming pool.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

clairefontaine wrote: »

I ping pong bank accounts all the time.

Banks are a service, but you are still the consumer.

They can't lend without your money in their vaults.

Almost all money lent by the banks is loaned to them in turn by the ECB.

msg11

Seamus, totally correct.

The banks making customers actually hate them, if people feel ripped off just using there current accounts. What hope have the banks got of these customers looking at there other services available.

Banking really needs to get with the times. Hounding down customers is not going to fix the issues, pumping money ten fold into them won't solve the problem.

Realistically what changes have we seen in banking since the crash? Account fees, job cuts, funding cuts. Banking has not changed, I have not been offered any new service by UB, no suggestion of starting some sort of savings account, detailing how I can earn money with the bank via saving. Whats that about?

Yet I have seen text messages to people in the Credit Unions asking if they would like a small loan for a holiday etc.. Asking would they like to save. Not pushing fees on people.

GreeBo

fergiesfolly wrote: »

While the launderette were washing your clothes, did they rent them out to other customers at a much larger fee than they charged you to wash them.

whats that got to do with anything?
What the banks do with your money while you giving it to them to mind is of no concern of yours, as long as its there and available to you when you want it the fact that they leverage it to make money is inconsequential to the fact that you pay them for a service that they provide.

How often do you refund them for the bad debts that they incur while lending out your money? Oh thats right, never, so why are you so concerned when they make a profit off it exactly?

By all means move if you dont like the charge for the service, but somehow thinking you are entitled to a free service is just plain silly.

Cookie_Monster

clairefontaine wrote: »

They can't lend without your money in their vaults.

Well the major problem is they can, and can lend about 9 times what they have in their vaults out.

keeponhurling

GreeBo wrote: »

How often do you refund them for the bad debts that they incur while lending out your money? Oh thats right, never, so why are you so concerned when they make a profit off it exactly?

.

You haven't watched the news for the last 2-3 years, have you?

Basically banking services is like anything else, the business will charge the maximum amount that they can get away with.
If they can charge 12 euro a quarter and people pay, they'll do it.
If they can charge 100 euro a quarter and people still pay, they'll do that do.

Ultimately banks do need your money, in order to make money for themselves. So they will make it as attractive as they need to.