DUP MLA has 'no problem' burning Tricolour

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The union flag is constantly referred to as The Butcher's Apron though, which is just another way of showing disrespect for a nation.

I always felt it was called the butchers apron because of the empires bloody history?

let unionists burn flags it just show how bigoted there "culture" is

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

I always felt it was called the butchers apron because of the empires bloody history?

let unionists burn flags it just show how bigoted there "culture" is

But only by Irish republicans and only the union flag, not the French tricolour for example. It is all an attempt by one side to put down the other.

I don't know why people get excited by the loyalists, they do this for a reaction and they get it.

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But only by Irish republicans and only the union flag, not the French tricolour for example. It is all an attempt by one side to put down the other.

Well Britain has some dodgy history with regards its empire so its fair criticism in my opinion

and burning a flag is much worse then calling a flag a name

the proplem is you have a DUP politician openly supporting it. I've never heard a SF politician call the Union flag the butchers apron

fryup

laoch na mona wrote: »

I've never heard a SF politician call the Union flag the butchers apron

well not in public, SF are more sly with their bigotry

Crooked Jack

fryup wrote: »

well not in public, SF are more sly with their bigotry

Oh, so now we've moved on from what Sinn Fein actually say and do (seeing as that didnt yield the results you wanted) to what some people think Sinn Fein think.
The mental acrobatics going on here are astounding.

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

Well Britain has some dodgy history with regards its empire so its fair criticism in my opinion

and burning a flag is much worse then calling a flag a name

the proplem is you have a DUP politician openly supporting it. I've never heard a SF politician call the Union flag the butchers apron

And the French were saints were they?

Why is it worse? It is done for the same reason, it is all about insulting the other side in a childish way.

DUP politicians aren't as savvy as SF ones (less intelligent for want of a better term) so they are good for sound bites like this. SF are far too media aware to insult a nation in a similar way.

Crooked Jack

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And the French were saints were they?

Why is it worse? It is done for the same reason, it is all about insulting the other side in a childish way.

DUP politicians aren't as savvy as SF ones (less intelligent for want of a better term) so they are good for sound bites like this. SF are far too media aware to insult a nation in a similar way.

ZING! Deflect onto the French now. This thread gets better and better. I wonder who will get the blame next for the actions of a DUP MLA.
Here's my prediction.


http://www.redgamingtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/aliens-meme.jpeg

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And the French were saints were they?

.

Don't forget the Belgians Fred.

Scofflaw

This thread is rapidly descending towards the kind of depths associated with mass bannings and infractions. I'll be back in while.

moderately,
Scofflaw

HurtLocker

gallag wrote: »

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=internment+bonfires&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Z17NUeyzBYyX0QWhi4GoBQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=360&bih=567

So what? Northern Irish citizens burning their own flags? Why should that give unionist excuse to burn my flag as the Stormont member who started this said "Its a foreign countrys flag". What do they want us down here to do about it? It shouldn't be up to the Republic of Ireland citizens to actively not condone the burning of the Union Jack. It's happening in Northern Ireland, thus a problem of NI to solve. Burning my flag is just a sectarian act of provocation and aggression against one of the least confrontational of neighbours to have.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Don't forget the Belgians Fred.

That's a very well thought out and useful contribution Nodin, well done.

Seeing as you regularly use the term Butcher's Apron, how do you feel about burning flags?

Fratton Fred

HurtLocker wrote: »

So what? Northern Irish citizens burning their own flags? Why should that give unionist excuse to burn my flag as the Stormont member who started this said "Its a foreign countrys flag". What do they want us down here to do about it? It shouldn't be up to the Republic of Ireland citizens to actively not condone the burning of the Union Jack. It's happening in Northern Ireland, thus a problem of NI to solve. Burning my flag is just a sectarian act of provocation and aggression against one of the least confrontational of neighbours to have.

I'm pretty sure protestants in the south are angered by this, so I'm not sure sectarian is the correct term.

I am pie

As deplorable as Girvan's actions are, and they are deplorable, it is fairly depressing to see people try to use it as a stick to beat an entire country (or 6 counties) with.

For me those who descend into this level of stereotyping and smearing are guilty of the same nonsense that Girvan is.

We would be well served not to judge society by the actions and words of the minority.

I am pie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm pretty sure protestants in the south are angered by this, so I'm not sure sectarian is the correct term.

Provocative and hateful probably cover it.

You´re way off track trying to draw parallels between use of the butchers apron term and flag burning.

One is a public show of disrespect and intolerance by an MP, an MP who serves on a number of public commissions who would represents a large minority of nationalists in the South Antrim area. It's a serious insult to many of his constituents and damaging to the democratic process establish in NI, the other is a snide remark. If you can find someone from a FF, FG or the LAbour party in government using that phrase there might be some equivalency, even then I would say burning a flag is many times more provocative.

Otherwise, you are clutching at straws.

Girvan should be sacked from every public committee he sits on (and there are many, check his bio) today. If we are serious about trying to portray a progressive image, stimulate investment to reduce dependency on the UK funded public sector then we need to root outall the idiots who damage this progress. If the DUP were serious about governing fairly they would expel this guy from the party.

Fratton Fred

I am pie wrote: »

Provocative and hateful probably cover it.

You´re way off track trying to draw parallels between use of the butchers apron term and flag burning.

One is a public show of disrespect and intolerance by an MP, an MP who serves on a number of public commissions who would represents a large minority of nationalists in the South Antrim area. It's a serious insult to many of his constituents and damaging to the democratic process establish in NI, the other is a snide remark. If you can find someone from a FF, FG or the LAbour party in government using that phrase there might be some equivalency, even then I would say burning a flag is many times more provocative.

Otherwise, you are clutching at straws.

Girvan should be sacked from every public committee he sits on (and there are many, check his bio) today. If we are serious about trying to portray a progressive image, stimulate investment to reduce dependency on the UK funded public sector then we need to root outall the idiots who damage this progress. If the DUP were serious about governing fairly they would expel this guy from the party.

I don't disagree with you about Girvan, in a normal political environment he would be out on his ear.

my biggest issue is with those who use this as a stick to beat unionists with, but would quite happily have flag burning parties of their own.

I am pie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't disagree with you about Girvan, in a normal political environment he would be out on his ear.

my biggest issue is with those who use this as a stick to beat unionists with, but would quite happily have flag burning parties of their own.

The reality is that for one reason or another this is a one sided issue. SF marshall the troops more effectively to the extent that we do not see widespread burning of UK flags during internment events in August.

I would wager that over the July fortnight many hundreds of Irish flags are burnt, seriously. That and the extreme fuss that was made over normalising the use of the union flag over City hall show a depressing lack of comprehension and/or respect on the part of the government of NI.

Another point we should consider is that this is manna from heaven for anti-GFA republican terrorists.

Girvan could not be stupider.

everdead.ie

I am pie wrote: »

As deplorable as Girvan's actions are, and they are deplorable, it is fairly depressing to see people try to use it as a stick to beat an entire country (or 6 counties) with.

For me those who descend into this level of stereotyping and smearing are guilty of the same nonsense that Girvan is.

We would be well served not to judge society by the actions and words of the minority.

I'm not sure why people are using it as a stick to beat Northern Ireland with, it's just a shame people like Girvan seem to shout so loud.

Fratton Fred

everdead.ie wrote: »

I'm not sure why people are using it as a stick to beat Northern Ireland with, it's just a shame people like Girvan seem to shout so loud.

is it that they shout loud, or is it that when they do engage mouth before brain, there is an enormous PR machine waiting to exploit it to the fullest extent?

everdead.ie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is it that they shout loud, or is it that when they do engage mouth before brain, there is an enormous PR machine waiting to exploit it to the fullest extent?

It's probably a bit of both to be honest.

junder

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Instances of this are few and far between and tend to be the actions of individuals, I've certainly never seen it happen at a Sinn Fein event.
I did a quick google search and the most recent incident I could find of a union jack being burned at a Sinn Fein event was down south over 13 years ago and even then it was a deliberate protest over a very specific issue, nothing like the annual sectarian binge unionism gorges on.
I also noted that unionist politicians came out to strongly condemn the burning of a flag as an unacceptable action.
Republican bonfires are also a rarity these days, only a few places have them and again they tend not to be associated with mainstream republicanism.
This is all indicative of changes we've seen within republicanism that unionism has so far refused to accept. A general move away from a war time mentality.
I have to say however, some of the responses have been hilariously typical of a few posters on here. The DUP encourage stoking up sectarian hatred and the immediate response is "but, but, but Sinn Fein."

Every year at internment bonfires union flags get burnt. The two internment bonfires I see over looking the westlink are covered top bottem in union flags, don't see any Sinn Fein members calling for them to be taking down, moreover I am sure there are more then a few Sinn Fein members attending the lighting of the bonfires and clapping as the fire takes hold. Do I care, not really, more important things to be worrying about

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

my biggest issue is with those who use this as a stick to beat unionists with, but would quite happily have flag burning parties of their own.

no we wouldn't, we're not bigots

Crooked Jack

junder wrote: »

Every year at internment bonfires union flags get burnt. The two internment bonfires I see over looking the westlink are covered top bottem in union flags, don't see any Sinn Fein members calling for them to be taking down, moreover I am sure there are more then a few Sinn Fein members attending the lighting of the bonfires and clapping as the fire takes hold. Do I care, not really, more important things to be worrying about

Try again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6432399.stm

Fratton Fred

laoch na mona wrote: »

no we wouldn't, we're not bigots

Who is this "we"?

Sierra Oscar

It is incitement of hatred in my view, it is a shame that some elected representatives continue to think this sort of commentary is acceptable.

I am pie

junder wrote: »

Every year at internment bonfires union flags get burnt. The two internment bonfires I see over looking the westlink are covered top bottem in union flags, don't see any Sinn Fein members calling for them to be taking down, moreover I am sure there are more then a few Sinn Fein members attending the lighting of the bonfires and clapping as the fire takes hold. Do I care, not really, more important things to be worrying about

Whilst this should certainly be dealt with it is verging on whataboutery. If there are SF MLA's attending and clapping as a union flag goes up, they should be condemned also but I strongly suspect that they are at least more media savvy. None would be so ignorant as to voice these opinions on air.

Do you agree with Girvan's comments?

Do you believe he should face any censure for stating it is OK to burn our neighbours flag?

Sometimes as a politician, regardless of your point of view, you need to be aware of the message you send to the people who didn't vote for you, terrorists and the world in general as a representative of Northern Ireland as an MLA.

gallag

I hope we can evolve past this nonsense, I enjoy bonfire night with friends from a Catholic/Irish back round and the cheer when the flag burns makes me cringe, still lets not kid anybody by pretending like this problem is only one sided as crocked jack would have you believe.

I am pie

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is incitement of hatred in my view, it is a shame that some elected representatives continue to think this sort of commentary is acceptable.

It should certainly be considered so, realistically though any attempt by the PSNI to remove flags from bonfires would be the excuse the (i can't use the word I'd like to here) need to kick off with a summer of rioting and wanton destruction.

Sometimes pragmatism trumps the morally correct course of action in NI. Always has....

I am pie

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Try again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6432399.stm

In fairness that just highlights the tensions between SF and dissidents. It is a long way short of any kind of statement on not burning the union jack in August,.

Although I don't believe it's as widespread as Irish flag burning over the 12th fortnight it certainly happens.

Crooked Jack

I am pie wrote: »

In fairness that just highlights the tensions between SF and dissidents. It is a long way short of any kind of statement on not burning the union jack in August,.

Although I don't believe it's as widespread as Irish flag burning over the 12th fortnight it certainly happens.

It highlights clearly that Sinn Fein are not involved in these events, actively oppose them and that any equivalent sectarianism on the nationalist side comes from a tiny minority of nutcases. Totally incomparable to the widespread excesses of unionist sectarianism on naked display every year during July, clearly supported by the main unionist parties.

Crooked Jack

gallag wrote: »

I hope we can evolve past this nonsense, I enjoy bonfire night with friends from a Catholic/Irish back round and the cheer when the flag burns makes me cringe, still lets not kid anybody by pretending like this problem is only one sided as crocked jack would have you believe.

But the fact is that it largely is. Im not saying sectarianism is one sided, but this type of activity comes almost exclusively from unionism.
Internment bonfires are held in a handful of places across the north and as far as i know, exclusively by the extreme fringes of republicanism and thugs looking any excuse to burn stuff.
On the flipside, the July 11 bonfires are widespread across the north, nakedly sectarian, attended by a cross section of unionism, supported by mainstream unionist politicians and accompanied by 2 months of trouble.
The fact is, on this issue, it is largely one sided.

Id also be interested to know when your catholic friends attend these things are people aware of who they are or do you warn them to keep their heads down. A friend of mine with an Irish name went to one with his housemate and was instructed to not tell anyone his name, not to let on where he was from and generally not to speak to anyone outside of his housemates group of friends.
Someone recognised him from where he works, whispering and stares began and my friend and the housemate were advised to leave post haste.