Would it be incredibly unpatriotic to suggest that I no longer support reunification?

hatrickpatrick

I'm not so sure I see re-unification as a desirable outcome for Ireland anymore.
Now before anyone attacks this, hear me out for a second. This is not anything to do with politics, I'm as nationalist as anyone which will be obvious to anyone who's seen me post here before.
But the border is fast becoming the only escape from the nanny state our Republic is turning into. At this moment, you can't buy a packet of roman candles for new years in the Republic, but you can get one for a fiver just across the border. At this moment, our government is attempting to further restrict people's freedom by repeatedly hammering the prices of booze and cigarettes - both of which can be found far more cheaply if you head up North. And now we have this big from the Department of health to look after the vinters attack both problem and responsible drinkers by introducing minimum pricing, potentially raising the age for drinking or at least off sales to 21, ban sponsorship, and a whole pile of other nastiness coming from our distinguished Roisin Shorthall's legacy in the Department of Health. It's only going to get worse - last year we had the suggestion of a blanket ban on remote voicemail access because there are some eejits who don't know how to change their default password and are being hacked by journalists :rolleyes:

Forgive me for saying this, but the way things are going I'd almost prefer if the government here was abolished and Stormont had authority over the whole island. At least they don't seem inclined to treat their entire population as children who shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions, or base such restrictions on civil liberties on protecting the minority of eejits from themselves.

Thoughts?

gallag

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not so sure I see re-unification as a desirable outcome for Ireland anymore.
Now before anyone attacks this, hear me out for a second. This is not anything to do with politics, I'm as nationalist as anyone which will be obvious to anyone who's seen me post here before.
But the border is fast becoming the only escape from the nanny state our Republic is turning into. At this moment, you can't buy a packet of roman candles for new years in the Republic, but you can get one for a fiver just across the border. At this moment, our government is attempting to further restrict people's freedom by repeatedly hammering the prices of booze and cigarettes - both of which can be found far more cheaply if you head up North. And now we have this big from the Department of health to look after the vinters attack both problem and responsible drinkers by introducing minimum pricing, potentially raising the age for drinking or at least off sales to 21, ban sponsorship, and a whole pile of other nastiness coming from our distinguished Roisin Shorthall's legacy in the Department of Health. It's only going to get worse - last year we had the suggestion of a blanket ban on remote voicemail access because there are some eejits who don't know how to change their default password and are being hacked by journalists :rolleyes:

Forgive me for saying this, but the way things are going I'd almost prefer if the government here was abolished and Stormont had authority over the whole island. At least they don't seem inclined to treat their entire population as children who shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions, or base such restrictions on civil liberties on protecting the minority of eejits from themselves.

Thoughts?

I have always said that the best thing for n.i and ireland would be reunification and reformation with the U.K. With the 14trillion cubic feet of gas found in the U.Kand the ability to harvest any deep oil of the irish cost and more pragmatic changes like a unified corporate tax and less tax avoidance could turn these islands into a power house to face the dangerous future ahead.

TriggerLivesOn

The economy is bad enough as it is without them shower high unemployment, petrol bombs etc

golfball37

I grew up very Patriotic and Republican even. This failed Vichy state has made me hate everything I believed growing up. I'm still proud to be Irish but I am not one bit proud of this horrible banana republic.

The Provos were attacking the wrong state imho.

I would love to see a re-unification but under British rule. There are about 500 families who have everything sewn up in Eire and I'd rather the Windsors to be perfectly honest.

ardmacha

While there should be a reassessment of policies of all sorts in the United Ireland, I don't think that being in favour of partition so that people can smoke and drink more is a very convincing or positive argument. Smoking is foolishness, which the government should discourage given the health costs it imposes, and Ireland has an unhealthy attitude to drink in general, so does not need to drink more.

downonthefarm

no you are on the money there.they can keep the 6counties.we have enough of our own problems here without being left wit that clusterfcuk of a clusterfcuk of a place IMO

charlemont

I'm all for reunification but the points op stated are good valid reasons to be against it..This joke shop republic is far too corrupt and interferes far too much in its citizens life's..


But if we were reintegrated into the UK the same shower of people would still be pulling the strings here and any benefits gained would soon be lost..

hidinginthebush

You're saying that the UK is a welcome escape from a nanny state sort of government? Riiiight

TriggerLivesOn

Let them keep their 6 counties

hfallada

The NI economy compared to the South seems very underdeveloped. For the size of its population, it lacks a lot of manufacturing and its high value manufacturing is almost non existent. If we join with NI, does that mean the irish tax payer has to support the NHS then? Does support the massive police force? If the people go ape over a flag at city hall, what will it be like with when it is merged with the south.

As a young person, very few people my age care about a united Ireland. Most people my age dont see NI as Ireland or most of the people as Irish. OP you failed you consider, although Ireland has some the highest duty on cigarettes and alcohol. Our income tax rates for Low income earners are among the lowest in the EU. Also the wages in NI are very low compared to the south

hatrickpatrick

ardmacha wrote: »

While there should be a reassessment of policies of all sorts in the United Ireland, I don't think that being in favour of partition so that people can smoke and drink more is a very convincing or positive argument. Smoking is foolishness, which the government should discourage given the health costs it imposes, and Ireland has an unhealthy attitude to drink in general, so does not need to drink more.

It's not about specifics, it's more the general principle that NI appears to be far less a nanny state than Ireland is. Now that there is no longer institutionalized discrimination against sections of the population up North, which currently has better civil liberties?

hatrickpatrick

hidinginthebush wrote: »

You're saying that the UK is a welcome escape from a nanny state sort of government? Riiiight

Actually no, but NI seems to have it better than either Ireland or mainland UK in terms of personal freedom. Or am I simply misreading the situation?

golfball37

Would any British Politician get away with the strokes Reilly & Shatter have pulled? Or FF men before them. We have a complicit media and an education system that breeds emigrants or establishment voters.

The people of NI who wanted to be reunified with their fellow countrymen had a lucky escape.

gurramok

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Actually no, but NI seems to have it better than either Ireland or mainland UK in terms of personal freedom. Or am I simply misreading the situation?

Not when the marching season comes.

Anyone fancy paying sky high council rates on their houses like people in NI do? Our own property tax is nothing in comparison when you start paying £1000+ on your 3 bed semi.

ardmacha

Anyone fancy paying sky high council rates on their houses like people in NI do? Our own property tax is nothing in comparison when you start paying £1000+ on your 3 bed semi.

Don't be bringing facts into it. The Republic is overtaxed, don't you know, with tax a higher % of GDP than Latvia or Romania.

Corvo Attano

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not so sure I see re-unification as a desirable outcome for Ireland anymore.

That not unpatriotic.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

But the border is fast becoming the only escape from the nanny state our Republic is turning into. At this moment, you can't buy a packet of roman candles for new years in the Republic, but you can get one for a fiver just across the border. At this moment, our government is attempting to further restrict people's freedom by repeatedly hammering the prices of booze and cigarettes - both of which can be found far more cheaply if you head up North.

I'd almost agree until I see lads throwing fireworks at eachother.
And the booze and ciggies are only cheaper because of tax not civil liberty and even then they arnt much cheaper with the exchange rate.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Forgive me for saying this, but the way things are going I'd almost prefer if the government here was abolished and Stormont had authority over the whole island.

However that is not very patriotic at all.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Not when the marching season comes.

Anyone fancy paying sky high council rates on their houses like people in NI do? Our own property tax is nothing in comparison when you start paying £1000+ on your 3 bed semi.

£480 for a three bed semi, that includes water, waste etc.

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

£480 for a three bed semi, that includes water, waste etc.

http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/lps/index/property_rating/rates-calculator.htm

A house with a value of £200,000 in Belfast has a rates bill of £1395.
£200k is at current exchange rate €233,000, that's a rates bill of €1,630

A house with a value of £150,000 in Belfast has a rates bill of £1046.
£150k is at current exchange rate €175,000, that's a rates bill of €1222

Anyone still fancy paying that? Dublin residents perhaps?!

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

http://www.dfpni.gov.uk/lps/index/property_rating/rates-calculator.htm

A house with a value of £200,000 in Belfast has a rates bill of £1395.
£200k is at current exchange rate €233,000, that's a rates bill of €1,630

A house with a value of £150,000 in Belfast has a rates bill of £1046.
£150k is at current exchange rate €175,000, that's a rates bill of €1222

Anyone still fancy paying that? Dublin residents perhaps?!

What would the equivalent cost in dublin?

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

What would the equivalent cost in dublin?

315euro for a 150,000-199,000 house
405 euro for a 200,000-250,000 euro house
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/local_property_tax.html

Most houses in Dublin that are not kips and that are not in no-go areas are worth about 150k-250k and then upwards for our well to do brethren!

Waste charges for Dublin City Council are here http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Waste/DomesticWasteServices/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

If your bin is emptied every 2 weeks, you could say waste charges would be around 250euro per year.

So for the house worth €233k in Dublin, it would pay €655(property tax and waste) instead €1630 for the equivalent house in Belfast, thats 2.48 times more expensive.

nesf

Corvo Attano wrote: »

However that is treason.

Please don't throw around that word. It just needlessly gets people's backs up and really you're using it horribly incorrectly. Thanks.

Corvo Attano

nesf wrote: »

Please don't throw around that word. It just needlessly gets people's backs up and really you're using it horribly incorrectly. Thanks.

Aye aye cap'n.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

315euro for a 150,000-199,000 house
405 euro for a 200,000-250,000 euro house
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/local_property_tax.html

Most houses in Dublin that are not kips and that are not in no-go areas are worth about 150k-250k and then upwards for our well to do brethren!

Waste charges for Dublin City Council are here http://www.dublincity.ie/WaterWasteEnvironment/Waste/DomesticWasteServices/Pages/FrequentlyAskedQuestions.aspx

If your bin is emptied every 2 weeks, you could say waste charges would be around 250euro per year.

So for the house worth €233k in Dublin, it would pay €655(property tax and waste) instead €1630 for the equivalent house in Belfast, thats 2.48 times more expensive.

Is that property tax and water aswell?

Systemic Risk

ardmacha wrote: »

Don't be bringing facts into it. The Republic is overtaxed, don't you know, with tax a higher % of GDP than Latvia or Romania.

Ireland is not overtaxed but it would be more informative to look at tax in terms of GNP where repatriated profits of multinationals are removed (as we know the multinationals pay a very low rate of tax).

In terms of GNP we are pretty much at the European average and similar enough to the UK. However in terms of value for money it could be argued that we are overtaxed as many of the public services we receive are sub-par. Think health system/public transport anywhere outside Dublin/policing.

see Brendan O'Connors presentation in the link below comparing the tax/GDP and tax/GNP values
http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/presentations/tax-conference-june-2013/

Godge

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's not about specifics, it's more the general principle that NI appears to be far less a nanny state than Ireland is. Now that there is no longer institutionalized discrimination against sections of the population up North, which currently has better civil liberties?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Actually no, but NI seems to have it better than either Ireland or mainland UK in terms of personal freedom. Or am I simply misreading the situation?

Would that include the personal freedom to set up your own company and run it without the interference of the nanny state? Such as the founders of Anglo Irish Bank had?

One person's nanny state is another person's well-regulated environment.

It is difficult to see how you can be in favour of less regulation for issues relating to health and safety (fireworks, alcohol, cigarettes, soft drugs) but against less regulation for the creators of wealth (bankers, developers, businessmen). Otherwise, who would create the money to pay for all those things of personal freedom?

old hippy

I supported the idea of unification once. But now I see the 6 counties/NI as a separate entity. I'd rather see it free from British and Irish concern, tbh.

Anyways, the ugly sectarianism, homphobia and racism would drive me around the bend. Not a SF supporter as such but I do admire the work they've done to try and counter said brand of ugliness.

gurramok

gallag wrote: »

Is that property tax and water aswell?

Includes property tax and waste charges as stated. We don't have water charges for Dublin users yet.

So yes, its cheaper to live down here when owning a house than in Belfast. We have it good alright.

gallag

gurramok wrote: »

Includes property tax and waste charges as stated. We don't have water charges for Dublin users yet.

So yes, its cheaper to live down here when owning a house than in Belfast. We have it good alright.

Probably is cheaper to live down south then, as long as you dont get sick, drive, eat food or drink :-)

ardmacha

In terms of GNP we are pretty much at the European average and similar enough to the UK. However in terms of value for money it could be argued that we are overtaxed as many of the public services we receive are sub-par. Think health system/public transport anywhere outside Dublin/policing.

At the European average yes. But those below us like Spain have very poor social welfare.
As for the UK they too have an enormous deficit and are probably not collecting enough. That said if dole etc was reduced to UK levels and university fees increased to UK levels then it might be possible to have better public services.

woodoo

gallag wrote: »

Probably is cheaper to live down south then, as long as you dont get sick, drive, eat food or drink :-)

You are right the standard of living is much dearer in Ireland and water charges are coming in 2015.

Ozymandius2011

No it's not unpatriotic. We have to put our own house in order before we can expand the national territory.