European Ban on E-Cigs?

long range shooter

songbot wrote: »

Hi,

I don't normally post that much on forums but i have been reading a little bit about the proposed ban on e-cigs and its enough to get me worried. I read today that France has proposed a blanket ban on them and Italy is about to follow suit.
I have only been vaping for 5 months, I use the VIP cigarette like ones and I haven't smoked since i started using them. I smoked for 23 years before this. they have quite literally changed my life. But I know if they ban them that i will go back to smoking again. I don't want to, but i know myself well enough to know that i have a habit and it will continue on being a habit.
I was wondering if maybe we should set up some kind of petition like they have done in england to tell our stories to our government? I know they are useless but if we do nothing at all then we will just be accepting this and not having our voices heard.
I am not hugely knowledgeable about politicians and how to get the petition to them but am willing to set it up if someone can just give me a little help on where to direct it - Our opinions need to be heard not just by our own government, but by the European Commission too.

this is the english site: www.fightthevapingban.com

thanks, I hope we can do something to help in the fight against the ban!

EU banned this as well,but it helped me stop smoking,so i cant understand their politics sometimes.Good thing they still produce and sell it in scandinavia.

Going Forward

http://www.france24.com/en/20131007-french-doctors-voice-support-e-cigarettes?ns_campaign=editorial&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=reseaux_sociaux&ns_fee=&ns_linkname=20131007_french_doctors_voice_support_e_cigarettes&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Interesting item from France, 10 top doctors supporting E Cigs

Anyone

Happy days, great news that they wont be classified as medicinal products.

the_syco

http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/133-a-triumph-for-vapers-smokers

Happy Days!

jakdublin

Great victory in the battle, but the war will continue. Very happy with this.

dePeatrick

tommy2bad wrote: »

Sorry, didnt see this till today.
More detail now. I think vaping will replace smoking completely as the nicotine delivery system of choice, cigarettes will still be around but as a niche like pipes and cigars.

‘Our typical response to a disrupting new technology, is to recreate the old environment instead of heeding the new opportunities of the new environment.’ said Marshall McLuhan. Ecigs are that disruptive tech and we see both big T and big P fighting over which existing environment to have them recreate.
Tobacco want them to become cigarettes, disposable, sold in supermarkets and tobacconists, advertised as cool and glamorous.
Pharma wants them to become medicines, unglamorous, dose regulated, sold in pharmacies or at least in the aspirin and lemsip shelves of supermarkets.

Neither side can see that ecigs are not a reproduction of or incremental improvement of existing products. No more than cell phones were a reproductions with small improvements on the land line. Before the mobile we thought that video phones on a landline would be the bestest thing ever. We were wrong. It took some years and some selling before the mobile became the ubiquitious piece of kit we now have. At the start no one realized that the wireless signal was the big breakthrough not for the freedom from a wall socket but because of the nature of wireless. It could carry data.

The ecig is not so lucky as the mobile, the product it's seen as a reproduction off is now being eradicated, the ecig which could eradicate smoking is unfortuniatly seen as smoking 2.0 not the new opportunity it may actually be.

Think of it ! vaping as a way to administer pain medication, self tirtulated and convient and capable of small doses. Or vaping as a way to self inoculate. A non invasive therapy. OK I'm blue skying a lot but so far I havn't heard one voice looking at ecigs as anything other than as the new cigarette or the new NRT. Old models replicated. New models stifled.

Tuesday the EU vote happens, the choices are medical regs or tobacco regs.
You ask what I think will happen ecigs? It will be smoking 2.0 sadly, an addictive habit that is viewed as a moral failing and restricted the same as cigarettes. The thing is this won't reduce the smoking prevalence rates because vaping will be classed as smoking on health questionnaires, medical reports and insurance forms, what it will reduce is the smoking related mortality so a small win at a big cost. The delay in uptake of vaping as an alternative to smoking and the lives lost because their won't be much advantage to vaping apart from the health gain which is as we all know the least convincing argument to a committed smoker.

And this is all guessing, I could be wrong, my crystal ball isn't what it used to be since the digital switch over.

Your quotation from McLuhan is interesting and it had occurred to me that vaping could be used as a delivery method for other things. Despite it being a decade old there is no appearance of anything else just as you suggest. Your analogy of the emergence of the mobile phone is perfect!

The use of "safety" issues to determine whether a product is brought to the market unless controlled ny companies whose track record on same issues does not bear scrutinity.

It is quite simply greed and market share that is often the driving force behind the direction these decisions are steered and we will see today what position the EU will take on this.

Thanks for your well thought out answer, it is only now and then that something comes along which we have personal knowledge of and an interest in researching that exposes the contortions that governments and large corporations get up to in order to maintain the status quo or maintain their market share.

Edit: just seen as I posted this that the EU have voted not to view them as medical products.:D

Vaperus

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/pl/news-room/content/20131004IPR21539/html/Tobacco-larger-warnings-flavours-banned-e-cigarettes-regulated

tommy2bad

dePeatrick wrote: »

Your quotation from McLuhan is interesting and it had occurred to me that vaping could be used as a delivery method for other things. Despite it being a decade old there is no appearance of anything else just as you suggest. Your analogy of the emergence of the mobile phone is perfect!

The use of "safety" issues to determine whether a product is brought to the market unless controlled ny companies whose track record on same issues does not bear scrutinity.

It is quite simply greed and market share that is often the driving force behind the direction these decisions are steered and we will see today what position the EU will take on this.

Thanks for your well thought out answer, it is only now and then that something comes along which we have personal knowledge of and an interest in researching that exposes the contortions that governments and large corporations get up to in order to maintain the status quo or maintain their market share.

Edit: just seen as I posted this that the EU have voted not to view them as medical products.:D

And so another politics nerd is created

dePeatrick

tommy2bad wrote: »

And so another politics nerd is created

Ha ha haaa....maybe

Just looking at how much money the tobacco industry spent lobbying the EU on this (€1.2 million.)

A company spread-sheet showed that it used 161 employees and consultants in lobbying. By 22 June last year, 233 MEPs – 31 per cent of the total – had been met by PMI at least once. In a separate spread-sheet, several MEPs were listed as having been met four or five times.

Almost half of the European People's Party and European centre-right groups met with PMI's lobbyists, the documents show.

I wonder did they also put on pressure not to regulate eCigs as medicines? This now leaves it open to them to corner the market and they will try to do so......interesting times....!

DubTony

dePeatrick wrote: »

Ha ha haaa....maybe

Just looking at how much money the tobacco industry spent lobbying the EU on this (€1.2 million.)

A mere pittance. Gallahers is a part of JTI.

Have a look at their numbers on the right hand sides of these wiki pages. Mind boggling. (JTI's numbers are in Yen. 131 yen to the euro.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaher_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Tobacco

dePeatrick

DubTony wrote: »

A mere pittance. Gallahers is a part of JTI.

Have a look at their numbers on the right hand sides of these wiki pages. Mind boggling. (JTI's numbers are in Yen. 131 yen to the euro.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaher_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Tobacco

Agreed, when I look at those figures :eek: These guys could buy small countries let alone spend time lobbying mep's, as someone else pointed out, it is only a battle won....the rest is yet to come.

tommy2bad

I'v looked at this for the day almost now and see it as a bit of good and a bit of maybe bad. I think it needs finessing before it is certain how we will be affected by the new amendment. Oddly the tobacco industry's lobbying seems to have backfired as they got very little out of the amendment. Not enough regs to eliminate the smaller players and not enough leeway to let them use ecigs to promote their own brands.

Anyway the main things we got;
Nicotine-containing products with a nicotine level exceeding 30 mg/ml are not placed on the market
So anything higher than 30 will need a medical licence, fair enough for the general user but the small proportion that use 36 or 45 are going to have to buy the licensed produce which we still don't know if it will get such a licence. Also this means that nic is now a medicine based on concentration not presentation, i.e. it's medicine because we say so not because you claim so. This is not good, they can adjust that concentration anytime they like after all nic is now a medicine.
Oh and DIY is screwed.

Manufacturers and importers of nicotine-containing products submit to the competent authorities a list of all ingredients contained in and emissions resulting from the use of the product, by brand name and type, including quantities thereof, as well as any changes. Member States shall then ensure the dissemination of this information on a website with due regard to the protection of trade secrets. Manufacturers and importers shall also report to the authorities about national sales volumes by brand name and type.
What dose this even mean? emissions, how will they establish these? Nice idea but too complicated a way to achieve what is basic traceability and quality control.
The unit packet of nicotine-containing products includes a leaflet with instructions for use, including that the reference that the product is not recommended for use by non-smokers, contra-indications, warnings for specific risk groups, reporting of adverse reactions, place of manufacture and contact details of the manufacturer or importer.
More waste paper but if its what it takes!

A new health warning should appear on the electronic cigarette packaging: “This product is intended for use by existing smokers. It contains nicotine which is a highly addictive substance”.
Could have been worse, in fact this is the most sencible proposal in the whole thing, I would add a warning about allergies to some ingredients.

The products are available to be sold outside pharmacies
WooHoo, imagine that a non medical produce that needs a written law to specifically allow it to be sold outside chemists, color me non-plussed.

Flavourings are allowed in the products
So important that this is here, the urge to restrict flavors is huge and this keeps them from insisting that "tobacco products look and taste like tobacco" Oh and it a not so subtitle reminder that ecigs are not tobacco products.

The limitations on advertising, sponsorship, audiovisual commercial communication and product placement for tobacco products as set out in Directive 2003/33/EC and Directive 2010/13/EC shall apply to nicotine- containing products
In two minds about this one, should smokers be denied information that a safer product exists, hardly seems like a good way to reduce smoking prevalence. Dose it mean that ecigs and juice cant be on open display? Is it even legal to restrict a business from promoting it's product when that produce has no proven negative effects. I guess this is one of the compromises, one that shows the true intentions of the anti smoking crowd, its not the health risk they object to it's the habit.

I didn't bother mentioning the age restriction thing, we needed that, apart from a small disappointment that its tied to the cigarette age. Oh and including 0 nic in age restriction? Whats that about?
Lots of stuff needs clarification, the advertising, the nic level that can be imported for personal use and internet sales.

Linda of course said that this will have to be agreed by the commission and that it was only a basis for negotiations. Well good! lots of stuff to get removed from this before it goes through.
The shame is that snus is now a lost cause, though one of the amendments at least keeps it available in Sweden.

LOL at the Journal.ie for claiming that "A decision on reclassifying e-cigarettes as pharmaceutical products will be delayed."
http://www.thejournal.ie/tobacco-control-1119309-Oct2013/

dePeatrick

Great overview Tommy, way better than any of the MMM have on it so far. Am I right in taking it that none of this comes into force for at least 24 months?

tommy2bad

dePeatrick wrote: »

Great overview Tommy, way better than any of the MMM have on it so far. Am I right in taking it that none of this comes into force for at least 24 months?

Better than that, 24 months for tobacco regs and 36 for ecigs.
Oh and the menthol ban is 5 years away. That all depends on this getting passed now. It could take another 6 months. So we have plenty of time to stock up unless Reilly has something he tries to do here first.
The BBC are still saying that the British Gov intends to regulate as medicines but that's nonsense and only shows how little understanding of things the media actually have.



(Just noticed I use 'actually' a lot, even starting sentences with it )

dePeatrick

tommy2bad wrote: »

Better than that, 24 months for tobacco regs and 36 for ecigs.
Oh and the menthol ban is 5 years away. That all depends on this getting passed now. It could take another 6 months. So we have plenty of time to stock up unless Reilly has something he tries to do here first.
The BBC are still saying that the British Gov intends to regulate as medicines but that's nonsense and only shows how little understanding of things the media actually have.



(Just noticed I use 'actually' a lot, even starting sentences with it )

I have loads of time to stock up on some nic juice stronger than 30 mg then....

3 years is a long time now that everyone knows what ecigarettes are, it is like vapers reached a critical mass in the last 12 months or so after a decade of gradually increasing growth.

Such is the optimism of BAT that e-cigarette-style products are the way of the future that its Chief Financial Officer Nicandro Durante claimed in an interview with the Financial Times in September 2012 that the size of the market for tobacco alternatives could account for as much as 40% of BAT’s revenues (which were £15bn in 2011) in 20 years’ time. “It will be sizeable in 20 years’ time … it’s going to grow,” he said.

- See more at: http://blog.euromonitor.com/2012/11/e-cigarettes-a-us2-billion-global-industry-who-should-be-worried.html#sthash.pfumszgm.dpuf

DubTony

So it seems they've banned flavoured cigarettes (I sold cigarettes for 25 years and never saw flavoured ones), so does that mean they're going to ban flavoured e-liquid? Anyone?

dePeatrick

DubTony wrote: »

So it seems they've banned flavoured cigarettes (I sold cigarettes for 25 years and never saw flavoured ones), so does that mean they're going to ban flavoured e-liquid? Anyone?

No Tony, just flavoured cigarettes....I think they mean mental.....sorry typo, menthol....cos the kids love them :rolleyes:

It looks like we are safe for the moment....the next onslaught will be from the tobacco companies aka government tax on vaping....Tommy2bad is the poster on here who is well tuned into all of this and passionate about it too, as well he should be.

Banana cigarettes anyone, get your banana flavoured cigarettes here, straight just as the EU wanted them.....get your banana.............:D

was.deevey

No Tony, just flavoured cigarettes....I think they mean mental.....sorry typo, menthol....cos the kids love them

Strange times we live in, when I was in school no-one would even bum a Marlbro Light off me ... "oh your on dem yokes, nah it's alright"

I didn't bother mentioning the age restriction thing, we needed that, apart from a small disappointment that its tied to the cigarette age. Oh and including 0 nic in age restriction? Whats that about?

I'm actually glad about that to be honest, there should be no need for under 18's to be able to buy an ecig, nicotine or not, it DOES promote a habit that most likely would lead to a nicotine addiction. And while I completely advocate the usage of Ecigs for former smokers, as its the healthier option I'm not of the mindset that it should be the social norm for new vapers who never touched it before to take up vaping down the road.

Of course if they are already smoking fags thats a different story and should move to ecigs but they are doing it illegally anyhow.

I think the EU stance on it, is that they hope next generation will have more of chance of not getting addicted to nicotine in any fashion, if they are not being exposed to it.

tommy2bad

was.deevey wrote: »

Strange times we live in, when I was in school no-one would even bum a Marlbro Light off me ... "oh your on dem yokes, nah it's alright"



I'm actually glad about that to be honest, there should be no need for under 18's to be able to buy an ecig, nicotine or not, it DOES promote a habit that most likely would lead to a nicotine addiction. And while I completely advocate the usage of Ecigs for former smokers, as its the healthier option I'm not of the mindset that it should be the social norm for new vapers who never touched it before to take up vaping down the road.

Of course if they are already smoking fags thats a different story and should move to ecigs but they are doing it illegally anyhow.

I think the EU stance on it, is that they hope next generation will have more of chance of not getting addicted to nicotine in any fashion, if they are not being exposed to it.

Yeah I remember when you weren't a real man unless you smoked major!
The flavors are a bit of a mystery as we don't have much market for apple or clove tobacco here in most of europe and menthol is such a small segment of the market that removing it won't actually do much to encourage quiting.
I understand that this is about discouraging new smokers but trowing curent smokers under the bus to achieve that seems callous to me.
I was wondering about the 0nic ban as without the nic the shisha stick is not addictive, their main argument for the restriction on nicotine. It dose give us a clue as to the real agenda though. It's the habit they want to regulate not the product. Again let the smokers die seem to be the attitude.
Pity because a 0 nic shisha would be an excellent tool for kids under peer pressure to smoke. I would have set the age restriction for NCP at the same age it's set at for tobacco and 2 years below that for 0 nic. I see that the age restriction is 18 across the board again another missed opertunity as tobacco is not 18 all over europe.
Then again I'm coming from a harm reduction point of view rather than a habit elimination one.
Shame we didn't have these years ago before the health community became so wedded to the myth of a nicotine free world.

Samba

DubTony wrote: »

So it seems they've banned flavoured cigarettes (I sold cigarettes for 25 years and never saw flavoured ones), so does that mean they're going to ban flavoured e-liquid? Anyone?

I wonder does Shisha fall under this? It's the only other flavored tobacco I can think of.

Chris Dolmeth

So a ban on advertising, huh? No signs/logos on (European hosted) websites, b&m stores etc?

It'll make b&m shops look like the dreaded Head Shops from a couple of years ago. Way to go to make people think of them as somewhat mysterious and 'bad'.

Vaperus

You can get flavours in tobacco especially rolling paper I know a few people wo are into them

http://www.rizla.co.uk/products/
http://www.roll-ups.co.uk/ishop/879/shopscr753.html

They dont seem to have a clue when it comes to Children
I have had kids comming up to me saying thats not even a real smoke mate you do you want one of these as they offer me a benson or something.

The Graphical picture are the best one, Kids will love them, I can just see them now, "you got the one with the gammy leg, cant get it anyware" they will be swapping pictures in the playground

artyeva

Chris Dolmeth wrote: »

So a ban on advertising, huh? No signs/logos on (European hosted) websites, b&m stores etc?

It'll make b&m shops look like the dreaded Head Shops from a couple of years ago. Way to go to make people think of them as somewhat mysterious and 'bad'.

there's a certain policitican in this great country of ours who already equates e-cigs with head shops - something he takes credit for 'getting rid of' in his own constituency, honestly i could barely stop from bursting out laughing at him.

the level of his misunderstanding is astounding, it really is. and it's not just a matter of miseducation, it's 'fingers in the ears lalalala i can't hear you, you big druggie' type of misunderstanding. :rolleyes:

was.deevey

I wonder does Shisha fall under this? It's the only other flavored tobacco I can think of.

There are lots of flavoured cigarettes available in other countries, I've personally tried Orange, Blackcurrant and Apple.

tommy2bad

And today I read that the BJM will no longer publish any papers on tobacco research that is connected to tobacco companies. They are including ecig in this ban. Read it your self here.http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5193
They explicitly state that the reason is because they don't like big tobacco.
However this means that when opponents insist on peer revived studies their wont be any. Strange that this policy which btw is a complete reversal of previous BJM policy

“The BMJ is passionately antitobacco, but we are also passionately prodebate and proscience. A ban would be antiscience.”1

comes after the medicalization of ecigs was turned down.
If I had my tin foil hat on I'd suspect pressure had been applied as the evidence didn't support the antz side.

Samba

Came across this post from Rebecca Taylor MEP, probably a good to take her advice on board and email your local TD and cc Health Minister Dr. James O'Reilly

Ensure your tinfoil hat is off before writing to them.

Quoted from her blog, points to raise...

• That ecigs attract smokers in a way that NRT products do not and thus have great potential to reduce smoking rates in Europe. (NB: if you are an ex-smoker who has switched to ecigs, briefly recount your personal story.)


• The EP plenary voted clearly in favour of regulating e-cigarettes as consumer products (386 votes in favour, 283 votes against, 7 abstentions) and that all Liberal Democrat MEPs and all but one Tory MEP voted in favour of this amendment.


• The EP position would require ecigs to be correctly labelled including in relation to nicotine levels, institute an under 18 sales ban and allow governments to impose marketing restrictions e.g. ban misleading advertising or that aimed at children/teenagers.


• That medicines regulation would impose additional costs that add no value, e.g. pharmaceutical grade manufacturing facilities and that many SMEs will be priced out of the market reducing consumer choice as well as decimating small businesses.


• That in many EU countries medicines regulation would make ecigs much less widely available than tobacco products, which will benefit the tobacco industry.

Samba

BUMP

Just wanted to update the thread with a few positive responses I got from my emails sent to elected representatives.

Shane Ross

Dear My Name,

Sorry for the delay . I wanted to consider your email and reply personally.

Many thanks anwat. I am of the opinion that e-cigarettes should not be classified as a medicine and should continue to be available for purchase over the counter.

I have not been convinced thus far that putting them under prescription would do anything to help those who are making an effort to quit smoking. Indeed it would certainly make them less accessible .

Making the alternative of e-cigarettes less available to people seems to achieve nothing for the ordinary punter other than another obstacle in their way as they attempt to give up smoking.

so you can count on my support .

Best wishes,

Shane

Response from Olivia Mitchell

Dear My name,

Thank you for your informative email and for highlighting this issue with me. I respect your struggle to quit smoking and congratulations on your improved health as a result.

I'll be sure to speak to the Minister for Health on this.

Kind Regards,

Olivia

Follow up response from Olivia Mitchell...

Dear My Name,

In relation to your recent email on e-cigarettes, I asked the Minister for Health his views on whether the proposed restriction on e-cigarettes as medical products could result in them being more costly and less accessible than traditional tobacco cigarette. I have attached his response below for your information.

Kind Regards,

Olivia


"The report of the Tobacco Policy Review Group 'Tobacco Free Ireland' was launched on the 3rd October 2013. The report recommends the establishment of a regulatory framework for nicotine products in the context of discussions at European Union level. Last December, the Commission published a proposal for a new EU Tobacco Products Directive, the ultimate purpose of which is to reduce the numbers of people smoking. The proposal is being discussed in the European Parliament and Council of Ministers and the Commission hope that it will be adopted in 2014. Nicotine containing products such as e-cigarettes are being considered in the context of this proposed tobacco products directive.

In relation to e-cigarettes the World Health Organisation has noted that the safety has not been established and that not enough scientific evidence exists currently to validate the claim that these products are effective smoking cessation aids."

As for the minister of health, I received an email confirmation and a written response from his secretary to the effect, thank you for contacting us and your comments have been taken on board.


All in all quite a positive result and some awareness raised.

dePeatrick

Good one Samba, going to send off some emails tonight as well

rock whore

Another BBC article on vaping, largely postive

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24914473

tommy2bad

Thats the spirit Samba.
I had replies from my td's and most are positive, some look like form responses, (yes I looking at you labor and FG), not surprisingly the most positive are the opposition. I wonder would this translate into suport for ecigs once elected? I doubt it.

Forgot to mention this was today; http://e-cigarette-summit.com/
Read all about it on The twitter machine; https://twitter.com/ecigsummit