Rifle caliber choice?

hurlsey

Hey lads, im still shopping for a shotty, how and ever, i have come into a bit of extra cash:D:D already been talking to the FAO and he says applying for a rifle with my shotgun shouldnt be any bother at all!!

This rifle is for foxes and rabbits, cost of ammo isnt an issue!!

Im looking a a cz varmint kevlar in .223 but, and im sure you see it coming, i also like, on paper at least, the .204 ruger!! On paper its looks nice and flat, like a .17hmr vs .22lr, however ive owned both of them in the past and i prefered the .22lr

So what are your thoughts?

i dont want this to degenerate into a pr!ck measuring contest over caliber(ive used the search function)

id just like if anybody has any opinions on the rifle in either caliber what are your experiences??

Cass

I've owned the CZ Kevlar in .223. The rifle is a overall good. Here are some pros and cons.

Pros

• Heavy barrel, but not too heavy to carry, meaning it does not suffer from over heating with a few shots.
• Great quality stock.
• Accurate with most types of ammo, and brands. 40gr up to 75gr.
• Best version of CZ's 223 for around €1,200 new. Cheaper than most other brands "top model".

Cons

• Magazine is "rough" and can be fiddly.
• The feed is not as smooth as other brands so the cycling can be a little rough too.
• The stock, while good quality, is very light and leaves the rifle muzzle heavy meaning carrying on the shoulder it tends to fall back. With a mod this increases. With mod and bipod, and you won't carry it without holding the sling.
  Does not come pre-threaded like most other CZ's.

Your other options in the same price range (new at €1,200) are Remmy, Savage, and Tikka. Go an extra €100 and you can look at the Sako A7. All rifles are top quality.

The Tikka is the most popular, but i hate the stocks. They feel cheap, and are too light. However you cannot argue with the accuracy and performance of he rifle.

The Remmy (multiple options/models) are a steady performer. Reliable, proven, and based on model as accuate as most other rifles. Great rifle for upgrades.

The Savage is well proven for accuracy. The BVTS, model 10, etc. are superb rifles. Problem is availability. The .308 target rifles are very popular and can be gotten. Other models are not so well stocked and hence hard to get and can be costly. Millards in Dublin are the importers, but any model i looked at had to be imported which would indicate they don't import anything other than the proven sellers.

The Sako A7 is Sako's answer to the expensive Sako 85. Same performance but with cheaper stock. Resembles the Tikka, but has a nicer feel, and at €500+ cheaper than the 85 is definitely going to be a contender.


If you are considering second hand you're options just went way up. You can look at pretty much most other brands that otherwise would have exceeded the €1,200 marker of the CZ. After saying that a €1,200 budget gives you excellent options for a rifle, and scope/rings, etc all for the price of a new rifle.

So look for any of the above, in good nick, but second hand. Then you ca top it off with a Bushnell, Burris, Hawke scope, and get rings, and maybe even a mod. I'll put it this way you have a great starting point.


Never owned a .204 so will not buls**t you with speculation from what i've heard or read.

garv123

Both will kill foxes further than most people can accurately shoot...

If you want to use cheap american eagle ammo get a .223

premium vs premium ammo will be almost the same.

But Ill just stir sh1t up and say get a .243 you wont have to change guns if you want to take up deer stalking

LIFFY FISHING

Domnic Byrne who builds the rifles swears by the 204, and after seeing what he has and does you should pay him a visit before you make your mind up.

clivej

I have the CZ .223 varmint with Kevlar stock and it is a great bit of kit. Very nice to hold in the aim and very accurate to shoot. Many a fox dropped to it.
Got mine to do a 20mm group at 300m a couple of times with VShok 40gr.

When I was buying I held many in the dealers but the CZ varmint was the best on the day so I bought it.

I'd say go for one, try as many as you can first to see what fits you.

dev110

With the .204 is your ammo not restricted to mainly the 32gr since Federal stopped making the 39gr and afaik you need the faster twist rate to run the 40gr & 45gr which most factory rifles don't have so you would need a new barrel?

Lotharmike

I had a Sako 75 in 223 truly superb rifle although a little heavy,i have a custom 204 even heavier & honestly put the 204 leaves a 223 for dead in my opinion .I recently got the Federal 39 grain Blitzkings after Tomcat recommended the round on here,he was right outstanding accuracy with the round.with all of them really just found the Federal to be tighter,it is my favorite caliber & i own a few.I know lads swear by the 223/243 etc but I constantly have a smile while using the 204,forever challenging myself with different targets & ranges down to empty 12 gauge cartridges(brass base) @ 191 yards & coins ,golfballs etc.I could not recommend the caliber highly enough,that being said the 223 is a very good round as well best bet is to try as many as possible before you buy,then pick what suits you.Good luck with choice you will enjoy all of them just some will outperform others .

gearoidol

Lotharmike wrote: »

I had a Sako 75 in 223 truly superb rifle although a little heavy,i have a custom 204 even heavier & honestly put the 204 leaves a 223 for dead in my opinion .I recently got the Federal 39 grain Blitzkings after Tomcat recommended the round on here,he was right outstanding accuracy with the round.with all of them really just found the Federal to be tighter,it is my favorite caliber & i own a few.I know lads swear by the 223/243 etc but I constantly have a smile while using the 204,forever challenging myself with different targets & ranges down to empty 12 gauge cartridges(brass base) @ 191 yards & coins ,golfballs etc.I could not recommend the caliber highly enough,that being said the 223 is a very good round as well best bet is to try as many as possible before you buy,then pick what suits you.Good luck with choice you will enjoy all of them just some will outperform others .

where did you get the 39 grainers

Lotharmike

gearoidol wrote: »

where did you get the 39 grainers

Croom just outside Limerick, (Anglers Curse) nice square box of 200 should do me for a while.The lads name is John 0879809919.

FISMA

223.

tomcat220t

.204 cal with a good setup is a tack driver out to 500 yards with the 39gr federal ammo .Now that the 39gr are been discontinued its a whole new ball game .
Without the availability of a 1/11 twist factory rifle, the 40gr ammo just wont match up to the 39gr federal rounds at extended ranges .
Cant understand why anyone would go custom 1/12 twist any more .
1/11 in 20 cal. is the way forward with the 39gr federal ammo no longer been made .
Regards ,Tomcat.

yubabill1

No experience with 204, but if you want rabbits for meat, I recommend FMJ. Expanding ammo will cause excessive meat loss.
223 may be ballistically inferior but more ammo options IMHO.

hurlsey

cheers for all the input lads, may just have a look around and see whats goin

hurlsey

Didnt feel like a new thread was necessary,

What would people recommend as a scope for a .223 or .204?
I dont really have anything in mind but i dont want to buy ****e either!!

Cass

To avoid the "crap" don't look at anything under the €300 mark. Not exactly a great guide but a rough one. The cheaper the scope the cheaper the glass, and usually the overall quality. However some brands are cheap, but surprisingly good quality. Like Hawke (as of late)

Always buy at the top end of your budget. €550 - €800 will see you with a decent new one, and a good second hand brand.

Also look to use. So for hunting keep the mag low-ish, and nothing too fancy in terms of features.

Look towards Sightron, Zeiss, S&B, Kahles, Swarovski, etc. Have a look around the for sale section for good quality second hand scopes. Nothing wrong with them, just means someone else took the initial hit on the new price.

averagefox

having never had any experience shooting a .22-250 until tonight i would strongly recommend adding it to your list, super round from what ive seen tonight!!

hurlsey

averagefox wrote: »

having never had any experience shooting a .22-250 until tonight i would strongly recommend adding it to your list, super round from what ive seen tonight!!

what was the setup, as in rifle/scope??

hurlsey

Cass wrote: »

To avoid the "crap" don't look at anything under the €300 mark. Not exactly a great guide but a rough one. The cheaper the scope the cheaper the glass, and usually the overall quality. However some brands are cheap, but surprisingly good quality. Like Hawke (as of late)

Always buy at the top end of your budget. €550 - €800 will see you with a decent new one, and a good second hand brand.

Also look to use. So for hunting keep the mag low-ish, and nothing too fancy in terms of features.

Look towards Sightron, Zeiss, S&B, Kahles, Swarovski, etc. Have a look around the for sale section for good quality second hand scopes. Nothing wrong with them, just means someone else took the initial hit on the new price.

cheers cass, by low-ish magnification do you mean say 3-9x??

averagefox

it was a sako 22-250, with a zeiss 3-12x50 on top which was flawless, think they can be picked up at right enough money to..

Cass

hurlsey wrote: »

cheers cass, by low-ish magnification do you mean say 3-9x??

Depends.

I prefer higher, variable, mag on my scopes. Others don't. So it's a split between personal choice and effectiveness. So 3-12 or 4-16. Best of both worlds. Low mag for close shots, quick target acquisition. Then high mag for the longer shots.

mister gullible

Depends what shooting you are doing. If it's mainly rabbits any centrefire is overkill and expensive. Again, if it's mainly rabbits, why spend big money on top end scopes. most scopes around 150 to 200 euro will be plenty good for rabbits and the odd fox. 17 HMR for mostly rabbits and occasional fox up to 100 yds is fine. When 17 WSM comes out should be perfect.

hurlsey

http://www.uttings.co.uk/Product/543/102886/hawke-sidewinder-30-ir-tactical-4-5-14x42-rifle-scope/#accessories

Would that scope be fit for what i want??

*disregard the enormous parralax sidewheel wont be picking that up

garv123

Hawke scopes these days are very good value for money. Id personally prefer one 50 lens instead of 42.

The Hawke eclipse 3-12x56 is very good under the lamp and in low light.

http://www.deben.com/hawke-riflescopes.html

Plenty models of different hawke scopes there.


Of course the head up their own ass brigade will be along soon to tell you that if a scope doesnt have a 4 digit price tag its going to be piece of ****..

hurlsey

Cheers garv123, its going to be a hunting rifle, not a target rifle im not going to be pushing it out to 500 yards or that, just need to make sure mr fox or mr rabbit get their stamped addressed round at circa 200 yards

Cass

garv123 wrote: »

Hawke scopes these days are very good value for money. Id personally prefer one 50 lens instead of 42.

Have two myself and for under €400 ya cannot beat them.

Of course the head up their own ass brigade ..........

Colourful

I find most people that recommend these uber expensive scopes don't actually own them, or have never used them. I don't see how a €3,000 3-12 is worth 10 times a €300 3-12 of another brand (example). So the glass is clearer, but is it €2,700 worth clearer. Let's face that is all the difference is. With a Hawke you get 30 years warranty, and all if not more features than the other more expensive brands. When it's for hunting and the max range is averaging at 500 yards both do the job the same.

After saying all that if i could afford to go the higher end ones all the time i would. In the prime times i had 4 Nightforces, a Zeiss, and a S&B, but nowadays it's more a case of cutting the cloth according to measure.

garv123

Cass wrote: »

Have two myself and for under €400 ya cannot beat them.

Colourful

I find most people that recommend these uber expensive scopes don't actually own them, or have never used them. I don't see how a €3,000 3-12 is worth 10 times a €300 3-12 of another brand (example). So the glass is clearer, but is it €2,700 worth clearer. Let's face that is all the difference is. With a Hawke you get 30 years warranty, and all if not more features than the other more expensive brands. When it's for hunting and the max range is averaging at 500 yards both do the job the same.

After saying all that if i could afford to go the higher end ones all the time i would. In the prime times i had 4 Nightforces, a Zeiss, and a S&B, but nowadays it's more a case of cutting the cloth according to measure.

Yup I dont see it either, especially when its going to be on a foxing rifle. I know people like that bit of extra time when deer stalking as deer often dont stick their heads out till its nearly pitch black but for foxing I dont see the huge need.
Op specified something to take foxes around 200 yards.. you can see foxes clearly through hawke scopes well passed that range.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056974933
There's a real bargain for the OP.

hurlsey

never mind, having checked out the price of ammunition and talked to a .243 owner it would be at terrible dual purpose rifle i think

guerrilla podge

def go wit a scope 3-12x50 have it on both my rifles cant fault the amount of light they gather late in the evenings

garv123

hurlsey wrote: »

never mind, having checked out the price of ammunition and talked to a .243 owner it would be at terrible dual purpose rifle i think

How did you come to that conclusion?

Its one of the most popular calibres in the country.

Ammo isnt that much more expensive either than .223. 100gr softpoints can be got for 28-30quid a box.

Cass

Ammo for a .243 can go to €42 per box however it can be gotten cheaper. Granted the .223 goes from €12 a box, but can also go to €30 for the better stuff. So at it's best it's only €10 per 20 cheaper than the ,243. However as a dual purpose rifle the .243 are one of the best/most popular calibers next to say .308.

Whomever told you they don't serve as a good dual purpose rifle must be having issues. this does not apply to most other .243s. I've a new .243, and have had two in previous years.

The .223 is a good caliber. Good ammo choice, and plenty good for dropping vermin. However the .243 does that as well as being deer legal. So it's ready to go should deer be something you wish to go for later on.

hurlsey

I was told the ammunition was way more expensive than .223, although i hadnt considered they might be buying crap for theres!! And that .243 is overkill for rabbits!!

I hadnt really considered that .243 was deer legal, obviously i knew it was, but i was weighing up for rabbits/foxes!!

I think its back to the drawing board again!!

Cass

hurlsey wrote: »

I was told the ammunition was way more expensive than .223, although i hadnt considered they might be buying crap for theres!!

If you compare the AE (American Eagle) at about €11-€12 per box of 20 to the Hornady SST in .243 at €42 per 20 then there is a huge price difference. However there is also huge performance difference, and no matter the round the .223 will only ever be good enough for rabbits, and foxes.

And that .243 is overkill for rabbits!!

M'eh.

The .243 will kill a rabbit as well as a .223. The usage is the same (backstop, suitable lands, etc) but once hit with the .243 the rabbit will go down.

I hadnt really considered that .243 was deer legal, obviously i knew it was, but i was weighing up for rabbits/foxes!!

The only reason to go for the .223 over the .243 (keeping in mind prices, etc) is you only ever want to shoot vermin. If you want the option of vermin with deer (whether now or later) then the .243 is the better choice. Does everything a .223 does, and allows you to consider other options later at no extra cost for a new gun.

Whatever your choice buy what you want, for the purpose you want it for. No point buying a .243 if you simply are not happy with the thought of it.

cookimonster

If its for foxs and deer close in you can get PPU 100 gr SP for €19.00 a box. I use Federal for €28.00 ish a box,.
As has often being said here before, think about how much you are going to be actually shooting, and you will soon realize how little ammo you will expend over the year.
I spend more money relativly speeking on .22 ammo then on the .243.
As a mate said, when we go out with the CF stuff it an't going to be no Mexican wedding.

hurlsey

I really dont know what to do now, i do like the idea of the .243, itll never be a target rifle so the amount of rounds i would be going through after zeroing would be low enough!!

This opens up a whole new headache!!!

At least i have the scope sorted

garv123

if you went for the .243 you could have it for foxes and deer, you could look into a .22 or hmr for rabbits down the line. if you go for the .223 you will have something for foxes and something thats expensive for rabbit shooting and nothing for deer down the line.

What scope did you go for?

hurlsey

garv123 wrote: »

if you went for the .243 you could have it for foxes and deer, you could look into a .22 or hmr for rabbits down the line. if you go for the .223 you will have something for foxes and something thats expensive for rabbit shooting and nothing for deer down the line.

What scope did you go for?

All true, i may start shopping around for a .243 id say, im pretty swayed in that direction at this stage!!

Went for a Hawke Sindwinder(minus the oversized parallax wheel)
http://www.deben.com/hawke-sidewinder-30-side-focus-riflescopes/hawke-sidewinder-30-sf-4-16x50-10x-mil-dot.html

Cass

In terms of cost the .243 range of rifles is on a par with the .223s. Obviously they can go as high as you are willing to pay, but just because it's a .243 does not mean it will automatically be more expensive than a .223 rifle.

hurlsey

Anybody got a howa?? How would you rate them against a cz or a winchester?

tomcat220t

hurlsey wrote: »

Anybody got a howa?? How would you rate them against a cz or a winchester?

Hi hurlsey ,i would rate howa better than remmy ,cz or winchester .
Regards,Tomcat.

hurlsey

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi hurlsey ,i would rate howa better than remmy ,cz or winchester .
Regards,Tomcat.

hey tomcat, any particular reasons?? fit, feel, finish or accuracy?

tomcat220t

hurlsey wrote: »

hey tomcat, any particular reasons?? fit, feel, finish or accuracy?

Hi hurlsey,the howa action is a better designed and machined action .
If you take into account price of a new howa plus its action been such a good design ..its a no brainer imo.
Any ive seen ...they shoot well !
Regards ,Tomcat .

hurlsey

Didnt want to start a new thread,

What are the chances of getting a .243 for foxing alone(and a rabbit or many)? Ive pretty much decided on the scope
http://www.deben.com/hawke-sidewinder-30-side-focus-riflescopes/hawke-sidewinder-30-sf-4-16x50-10x-mil-dot.html
the rifle
Howa 1500 varmint

so now its a case of .223 or .243......

Should i apply for a .243 and if i hit a wall "settle" for a .223??

cookimonster

I had a chat with my local FAO before applying just to check the lay of the land. Told him I was looking for a .243 for fox control. I did this for two reasons, 1. if I was refused I could then retry using stalking as my valid reason, 2. if at a later renewal date and I didn't have the stalking license I could argue I was issued the license on the basis of fox control.
In reality I got the license issued using fox control as my valid reason, no questions asked. My local FAO is very experienced and has been doing the job for over 27 years just incase some says this was a 'misunderstanding' on his behalf.

4200fps

If you shoot a rabbit with a 243 its in bits, 223 its in bits, 204 its evaporated.
You might escape the best with a 223 using full metal jacket to avoid meat damage

yubabill1

4200fps wrote: »

If you shoot a rabbit with a 243 its in bits, 223 its in bits, 204 its evaporated.
You might escape the best with a 223 using full metal jacket to avoid meat damage

FMJ 223 will kill a rabbit without meat damage OK. Even the little 17 hmr will cause excessive damage with expanding ammo.

One thing, you got to hit them in the vitals (ribcage) with FMJ.

4200fps

yubabill1 wrote: »

FMJ 223 will kill a rabbit without meat damage OK. Even the little 17 hmr will cause excessive damage with expanding ammo.

One thing, you got to hit them in the vitals (ribcage) with FMJ.

You certainly could but i'd personally would go for the computer (head) when that vital zone is hit it shuts the lot down like a switch with no meat damage.

yubabill1

4200fps wrote: »

You certainly could but i'd personally would go for the computer (head) when that vital zone is hit it shuts the lot down like a switch with no meat damage.

Horses for courses.

For me, I find behind the "armpit" the best percentage shot.

Don't get me wrong, headshots are fun - Just faffing on about why I shoot the way I do.

Expanding centrefire ammo will probably stop a rabbit with a hit anywhere except, perhaps the extremities.

FMJs need better placement IMHO.