Saint pope John Paul II sealed by miracle that will 'amaze the world'

crazy cabbage

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Is there any evidence that JP2 knew about the abuse?

Even if he did? So what? I'm sure he was just give the people under him 'freewill'.

Works for God. God gets away will all shorts of sh1t by saying that. Sure give them freewill. Means that he doesn't have to do anything. Lazy git.

Wonder if it will work for me?

But sir. I gave my homework freewill. It isn't my fault it didn't do itself. I am going to punish it by throwing it in the fire now. That will learn it good sir.

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

...sure who doesn't like a toasted heretic of an evening?

Anyone remember the cassette album that looked like a Tayto wrapper?

Kidchameleon

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Even if he did? So what? I'm sure he was just give the people under him 'freewill'.

Works for God. God gets away will all shorts of sh1t by saying that. Sure give them freewill. Means that he doesn't have to do anything. Lazy git.

Wonder if it will work for me?

But sir. I gave my homework freewill. It isn't my fault it didn't do itself. I am going to punish it by throwing it in the fire now. That will learn it good sir.

Well if something went tits up in my job that could be covered up, the last person to find out about it would be the MD. I can imagine the bishops / cardinals would have tried to keep things from JP. Now don't get me wrong, its very likely he did know and even if he didn't I would still hold him responsible... In leadership everything is your fault n all that. But to state as a fact that he knew and actively covered up is wrong without any evidence.

Hotblack Desiato

Bit ironic though, when the organisation we're talking about itself asserts all sorts of things without evidence and insists that all humanity should live their lives according to these made-up and often warped ideas which they themselves can't even live up to.

onlinenerd

banie01 wrote: »

It always amazes me that ''devout'' Catholics will pray to all manner of Saints, the Virgin Mary and various other non saints for intercession....
Surely the 1st commandment prohibits asking anyone or anything for divine intercession other than ''God'' itself?
I mean the language of the commandment itself is fairly plain and unequivocal....

The original from Exodus

Which is fairly clear in stating, pray only to God.
Don't make images or statues for veneration of anything!
Worship God and God alone and your reward will be God's love.
But bear false idol or worship and I will punish your family to the 4th generation.
Fairly clear and simple? Or so I thought!
But maybe that only applies to Jew's now? And catholic's have some special dispensation?

1st in the catholic catechism is simplified even further to:

Yet according to the Catholic church I'm understanding it wrong and since they've adapted it to the new testament and teachings what God actually meant is....


That the 1st commandment really actually encourages prayers to saints and others because they're Gods special friends
And sure we all know if you want something done its best to exert extra influence via a friend or 2!
And statues of saints, stations of the cross and veneration of relics is all fine because we took those bits out of the book and they really only referred to pagan ****e anyway!
One could be forgiven that there was money to somehow be made in the Saints and Idols industry....
Surely there can't be a benefit to the Church in eleveting JP2 to sainthood?
Nah, they'd never exploit the cult of a modern miracle to prosytelize and gain revenue!
Not the church!
Luckily I'm not that much of a cynic to believe that an organised religion would seek avenues for revenue growth and exploitation in such a manner!
All while maybe making him the patron St of some 3rd world mumbo jumbo to get in with some caché amongst the religious growth markets! :rolleyes:

I'm glad I'm not religious, because if I was still a practicing catholic(Rather than the lapsed one I am) I think I'd be more than a little confused by the fact that an institution of man has ''revised'' the word of ''God''.
Because if, as many believe the bible is actually the word of God, then its ok for the fella with the funny hat to tell me what God actually meant
Because sure tis too complicated for me!

There is a mistake because Catholics never pray to a saint, they only ask the saints to get a request asked before God quicker or asking for their intercession.

Gumbi

Nice loophole isn't it?

Kivaro

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Is there any evidence that JP2 knew about the abuse?

It was so prevalent, how could he not have known:

http://www.bishopaccountability.org/

Kidchameleon

Kivaro wrote: »

It was so prevalent, how could he not have known:

http://www.bishopaccountability.org/

I wonder does real hard evidence exist. What do you think the possibility of Sean Brady like records existing of meetings attended by JP2? Would be sure interesting to find out.

Geomy

onlinenerd wrote: »

There is a mistake because Catholics never pray to a saint, they only ask the saints to get a request asked before God quicker or asking for their intercession.

Kinda like a brown envelope scenario. ...

Or running through red lights...

According to Christianity, Islam and Judaism you're worshiping false God's by praying to saints. ..

swampgas

onlinenerd wrote: »

There is a mistake because Catholics never pray to a saint, they only ask the saints to get a request asked before God quicker or asking for their intercession.

So when people say "Say a prayer to Saint Anthony", for example, they really mean "Have a special non-prayerlike word with Saint Anthony and ask him to ask God to help me find my keys" ? Riiiiight.

human 19

Im trying to find out more about the physicians or others whos were consulted by the Congregation for Cause of Saints, or about the actual details of the illness itself but its very difficult as there is too much rehashing of the press release.

Found this abnout an earlier miracle...also sketchy on details
"When validity of the process was confirmed an official summary was prepared. Then a chronological history of the illness and cure was also prepared. Both the summary and chronology were translated into Italian and formatted in a book for easy reference to the cogent points of interest.

In September 2008, this book was given to two doctors, chosen by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. These doctors scrutinised the documents and had access to all X-rays, scans and medical reports from the cured person as well as other references to the illness from medical literature. They were asked to give an opinion on the question, “Can the cure be explained by scientific or medical means?” (as opposed to asking "with current medical knowledge?") When the doctors concluded that the cure could not be explained by medical or scientific means, all the material was further studied and discussed by a Medical Board, whose members were also chosen by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints."
http://www.marymackillop.org.au/canonisation/index.cfm?loadref=16http://www.marymackillop.org.au/canonisation/index.cfm?loadref=16

Well that's all wrapped up in a neat little package.

Even for those who did believe in sainthoods etc, it amazed me the they didnt think the whole thing was totally devalued after JP2 started throwing sainthoods around like confetti...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canonizationshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_canonizations

Hotblack Desiato

JPII shielded the all-round scumbag Marcel Maciel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcial_Maciel

The group, which included respectable academics and former priests, lodged formal charges at the Vatican in 1998, but were told the following year that the case had been shelved by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith (on orders from Pope John Paul II), then headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/29/catholicism.mexico

The Legionaries of Christ became particularly strong in the US and Ireland as well as Mexico, where their close ties to some of the country's richest and most powerful families persist today. In the meantime the order's radical anti-communism, unswerving papal loyalty, and success in producing priests just as the current crisis in recruitment was looming on the horizon made Maciel a favourite of Pope John Paul II. During a visit to Mexico in 1994 the pontiff described him as "a guide to youth".

But things began to go wrong in 1997 when a group of nine men went public with accusations that they were abused by Maciel while studying under him in Spain and Rome in the 1940s and 1950s. They described how the leader they were taught to think of as the epitome of holiness would say he had an illness in his groin and had been given papal permission to receive help massaging out the pain. The group, which included respectable academics and former priests, lodged formal charges in Latin at the Vatican in 1998, but were told the following year that the case had been shelved by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, then headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

onlinenerd

swampgas wrote: »

So when people say "Say a prayer to Saint Anthony", for example, they really mean "Have a special non-prayerlike word with Saint Anthony and ask him to ask God to help me find my keys" ? Riiiiight.

St Anthony is in heaven and we need to ask him first because he might decide the request is not best for us and not present our intentions before God and the Catechism of the Catholic church teaches No one is worthy of praise and honour except God.

Gumbi

onlinenerd wrote: »

St Anthony is in heaven and we need to ask him first because he might decide the request is not best for us and not present our intentions before God and the Catechism of the Catholic church teaches No one is worthy of praise and honour except God.

What the hell are you talking about? You are one of the most adept mental gymnasts I have ever met? Are you making this up as you're going along?

onlinenerd

Gumbi wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? You are one of the most adept mental gymnasts I have ever met? Are you making this up as you're going along?

No and you need to calm down and face the facts and if you want references ask me.

coolhull

onlinenerd wrote: »

and if you want references ask me.

No, that's ok, thanks. I have my own copy of "The Beano".

Nodin

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I wonder does real hard evidence exist. What do you think the possibility of Sean Brady like records existing of meetings attended by JP2? Would be sure interesting to find out.

....ye've better chance of getting stuff out of North Korea, tbh.

Hotblack Desiato

onlinenerd wrote: »

St Anthony is in heaven

That's just a theory

Calibos

onlinenerd wrote: »

St Anthony is in heaven and we need to ask him first because he might decide the request is not best for us and not present our intentions before God and the Catechism of the Catholic church teaches No one is worthy of praise and honour except God.

So God isn't Omniscient then?? "The saint says to himself that he won't bother God with this one"

Good Grief. I'm embarrassed for ye.

Brian Shanahan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well if something went tits up in my job that could be covered up, the last person to find out about it would be the MD.

Well then your MD should be fired, because his/her sole responsibility is to know how the company is running, and to find and fix any problems before it affects the financial position of the owners of said company.

Him not knowing is like a cashier in a corner shop being so bad at addition they are regularly out €100 on a €500 a day till.

Kidchameleon

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Well then your MD should be fired, because his/her sole responsibility is to know how the company is running, and to find and fix any problems before it affects the financial position of the owners of said company.

Him not knowing is like a cashier in a corner shop being so bad at addition they are regularly out €100 on a €500 a day till.

Absolutely agree with you. However it still isn't right to state as fact that he knew when we have no evidence.

Brian Shanahan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Absolutely agree with you. However it still isn't right to state as fact that he knew when we have no evidence.

If he didn't know he should be damned for criminal negligence. It was his job.

Oh, and he knew all right. The best way to avoid getting in trouble for things like this is knowing what is happening but not committing anything to writing. For example your MD knows all about every serious problem, and undoubtedly instigated some of the actions which lead to serious problems, but you'll never find the paper to prove it.

alyssum

Cabaal wrote: »

sure it was all gods will don't you know,

God caused the severe brain injury and then cured it,.....Ta Dah!

Next up, jesus does his magic tricks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvcpQSetMgI

lol very good

jimd2

Corkfeen wrote: »

Ohh I guess I'll start believing so. It appears to be rather easy to attribute a miracle to the pope if it's excessively vague. I'm going to claim that I prayed to the Pope and I miraculously do not have a hangover today as a result. :pac:

I think that this accelerated beatification is slightly embarrassing to many Catholics. In my opinion Pope John Paul II was partly responsible for some of the issues effecting the church in recent years.

Sarky

jimd2 wrote: »

I think that this accelerated beatification is slightly embarrassing to many Catholics. In my opinion Pope John Paul II was partly responsible for some of the issues effecting the church in recent years.

Catholics obey. You don't have the luxury of opinions.

mr lee

blessed are the cheese makers

Kxiii

mr lee wrote: »

blessed are the cheese makers

I'm sure he meant all those who work in the dairy industry.

krudler

onlinenerd wrote: »

There is a mistake because Catholics never pray to a saint, they only ask the saints to get a request asked before God quicker or asking for their intercession.

so basically saints are the heavenly equivalents of local TD's.