The Labour Party

Zubeneschamali

creedp wrote: »

No they simply unilaterally reneged on an Agreement not to introduce further pay cuts until mid-2014.

Do I gather that you are talking about Croke Park 1? That wasn't a promise before or after the election: it was a deal negotiated to further the actual promise in the programme: to reform the public sector, reduce costs and deliver value.

Fin_ally

Had to jump in. The hypocrisy and bologna is smothering.

The word 'Socialism' gets thrown around like the definition means incapable of managing any kind of financial accounts, giving money away to the detriment of the economy. And this usually comes from people who believe the right wing way is frugal and sensible.

Neither is 100% true. Simply put, one, (in our context at least) is supposed to look out for the little guy, the marginalised. The other, believing that helping business and investors etc. will create a strong economy and in turn a trickle down effect will help everyone.

So can we dispense with the subtext that anyone left or socialist is fiscally incompetent? I mean recent history? No?
The right or center right secured private bond holders at the expense of the state, (the state being the taxpayer contrary to what you'd be led to believe).

Labour have lost me as a voter. I solemnly believe they will go pretty far to stay/get in power. Like any democratic party not every Labour member is on board with this, but I can't call myself a Labour supporter. Having said that I truly don't believe the current leadership are Labour supporters either. At least not judged by their cheerleading of the like of Reilly.
They will be decimated at the next election and Fine Gael will pay the price of attempting to clean up yet another Fianna Fail mess. Not excusing Fine Gael, just broadly speaking, that's what has/does and will happen as we emerge from the latest rubble left by Fianna Fail.

As previously posted the civil war party lines will settle back to where they feel comfortable, with their supporters heads firmly up their own arses regardless of what the state comes to.
I'm saddened that some believe a few executives in one bank 'duped' an entire system of government and the (usually) biggest political party in the land, causing the nations financial collapse.
Labour should have either stayed in opposition or stuck the boot in on more than one occasion with their coalition partners.
Maybe they'll pull the old Fianna Fail chestnut, of 'We've cleaned house' from under the couch come the election after next.

Zubeneschamali

Fin_ally wrote: »

They will be decimated at the next election and Fine Gael will pay the price of attempting to clean up yet another Fianna Fail mess.

From wikipedia:

1982 to 1987, the Labour Party participated in coalition governments with Fine Gael. In the later part of the second of these coalition terms, the country's poor economic and fiscal situation required strict curtailing of government spending, and the Labour Party bore much of the blame for unpopular cutbacks in health and other public services. The nadir for the Labour party was the 1987 general election where it received only 6.4% of the vote

hyperborean

If you lay with dogs you will catch flea's,


They should have known better than to get into bed with FG, and again they will learn the hard way,

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

They should have known better than to get into bed with FG, and again they will learn the hard way,

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

bumper234

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

What policies have been implemented since they joined government?

The policy to cut social welfare?

The policy to bring in student fees?

The policy to close hospitals and garda stations?

The policy to pay back the bond holders (labours way lolaments)?

The policy to cut funding to special needs children?

Yeah Labour have done such a fine upstanding job of proving they are a party for the average working man and woman. Turns out they are just the bootlickers of the rich just like any politician.

DoesNotCompute

boundlessSea wrote: »

Labour is supposed to be concerned for primarily the working class but its biggest priority seems to be in maintaining the pay of middle class public sector workers which seems to be of more importance than reducing unemployment.

Really? Cos it's a Labour minister who is eroding the wages and working conditions of middle class public sector workers, via the FEMPI legislation.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

Entering government with FF or FG has destroyed every small party since the state began, They didnt have to go into government with them!

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2 then pounced,

They had enough about them before entering government to get close I believe, What with being the only party to vote against the bank bailout and the confidence they had in opposition they were a cert to break the civil war political lines but no, they took a risk and failed,

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2

I'm sure Lucinda Creighton would be doing a fine job with Social Protection!

Jawgap

Their response to the Anglo Tapes has been less than inspiring - lots of furrowed brows and pious hand wringing, but nothing constructive about what they are going to do about it........saying that, FG have been about the same.

I was always good for a 2nd or 3rd preference for Labour - and the occasional first preference, depending on the candidate, but I will never vote for them again or give them any preference.

I thought there would be some institutional memory of previous coalitions and they would have learned - making them a good counterweight to FG to the point where their moderating influence would yield decent government, but they've proved to be as venial as the rest of them.

Plus, Gilmore's taking of a non-economic ministry smacked of abdication - I think that was a strategic error of the first degree, and it really set the tone of what has followed.

View

hyperborean wrote: »

Entering government with FF or FG has destroyed every small party since the state began, They didnt have to go into government with them!

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2 then pounced,

Ah, the old "The party first and to hell with the people" strategy.

hyperborean

View wrote: »

Ah, the old "The party first and to hell with the people" strategy.

The old, " waffle without substance analagies" strategy to make minority parties look bad,

The country is not being served right with the concessions being made, a left wing governement would have been better for the people than the current same as it ever was FG majority government,

View

hyperborean wrote: »

The old, " waffle without substance analagies" strategy to make minority parties look bad,

The country is not being served right with the concessions being made, a left wing governement would have been better for the people than the current same as it ever was FG majority government,

There was no prospect of a left wing government at the time. The electorate have never shown much inclination to even consider ANY left wing government.

Second, "Grand coalitions" (of larger parties) work elsewhere in Europe. Most voters of our two main parties would probably have accepted the idea and be happy to vote for their favourite main party at the next election.

You wouldn't really expect "the left" to win a majority of seats in Galway or Tipperary, for instance, because FG & FF formed a "grand coalition", would you?

InchicoreDude

Their response to the Anglo Tapes has been less than inspiring - lots of furrowed brows and pious hand wringing, but nothing constructive about what they are going to do about it........saying that, FG have been about the same.

Not being smart here, this is a genuine question - what would you like them to do about it? What can they do that would make you say "Fair play Labour, well done"?

hyperborean

View wrote: »

There was no prospect of a left wing government at the time. The electorate have never shown much inclination to even consider ANY left wing government.

Second, "Grand coalitions" (of larger parties) work elsewhere in Europe. Most voters of our two main parties would probably have accepted the idea and be happy to vote for their favourite main party at the next election.

You wouldn't really expect "the left" to win a majority of seats in Galway or Tipperary, for instance, because FG & FF formed a "grand coalition", would you?

There was no prospect at the time of the last election,thats not what I was saying though!
There would be a very clear prospect of a left wing government if Labour had stayed out and sat in opposition till now then took a FG minority governement to the polls,

Simply put, with labour in oppsosition FF wouldnt have got the bounce and all the criticism being landed at labour's door would in another form be sitting in FG's lap right now, and the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Sadly they got into bed with FG and the rest is history(labour being consigned)

And the Irish voter gets what it deserves, a laughing stock that is FG.....

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Ha ha! Bless your innocence. If the Labour party supported the Govt or even abstained, voters would blame them for FGs policies, since they could bring the Govt down at any time, but weren't doing so.

The longer it went on, the greater the pressure on individual Labour TDs to split with the party and vote against unpopular measures before the next election.

FF would certainly vote against the Govt to put Labour on the spot, while claiming they were "just doing their job as an opposition party".

There'd be nothing left of the Labour Party bar a front bench if they made it past 2 budget votes.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ha ha! Bless your innocence. If the Labour party supported the Govt or even abstained, voters would blame them for FGs policies, since they could bring the Govt down at any time, but weren't doing so.

The longer it went on, the greater the pressure on individual Labour TDs to split with the party and vote against unpopular measures before the next election.

FF would certainly vote against the Govt to put Labour on the spot, while claiming they were "just doing their job as an opposition party".

There'd be nothing left of the Labour Party bar a front bench if they made it past 2 budget votes.

Your first sentence and the follow up explanation are an indictment of your thought process, Labour wouldnt have had to support a minority government in anything for them to survive till now, FF would have supported them for the first year at the very least, being the same and all.

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

FF would have supported them for the first year at the very least, being the same and all.

Why would FF support them? To help Labour out?

On anything Labour would find uncomfortable, FF would vote against, and force Labour to support cutting welfare, PS pay, healthcare, pensions, schools, taxes on the rich, etc. etc.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Why would FF support them? To help Labour out?

On anything Labour would find uncomfortable, FF would vote against, and force Labour to support cutting welfare, PS pay, healthcare, pensions, schools, taxes on the rich, etc. etc.

What are you on about? why would FF be helping labour out?

View

hyperborean wrote: »

There was no prospect at the time of the last election,thats not what I was saying though!
There would be a very clear prospect of a left wing government if Labour had stayed out and sat in opposition till now then took a FG minority governement to the polls,

Simply put, with labour in oppsosition FF wouldnt have got the bounce and all the criticism being landed at labour's door would in another form be sitting in FG's lap right now, and the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Sadly they got into bed with FG and the rest is history(labour being consigned)

And the Irish voter gets what it deserves, a laughing stock that is FG.....

That's one reading of it, another would be for the electorate to decide that Labour was part of the problem, not part of the solution with their moderate voters (most of them) peeling off to the two big parties leaving them as a rump ULA-Lite party.

That is basically what happened in Italy recently where the upstart third party is perceived by its supporters as having forced the main party to hold the door open and let Berlusconi's party back into office (as a junior partner) with the result the third party got hammered in local elections.

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

What are you on about? why would FF be helping labour out?

OK, nice and slow:

FG set up a minority government. First thing they do, they say "Oh dear, things are worse than we realized, emergency budget time! 10% cut in govt spending, starting now - PS pay, welfare, pensions, healthcare - everything cut 10%".

Now your theory is that Labour can vote against this budget because FF will vote for. But they won't - why would they? FF supporting this will only be helping Labour!

Instead, FF will vote against, saying it's their duty in opposition to oppose. Now, Labour can either vote for, vote against, or abstain. If they vote against, then we have another election.

To set up your realignment, they have to prop up the most right-wing govt ever. Which will leave them in a very bad place next election.

Jawgap

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Not being smart here, this is a genuine question - what would you like them to do about it? What can they do that would make you say "Fair play Labour, well done"?

Any constructive reaction at the moment would welcome - all I've heard so far is some cheap sniping at FF (as if we needed reminding of their involvement!).

I think the best suggestion I've heard so far is that we get some independent, expert and from abroad, backed up an appropriately resource team of investigators, to come in and pick over the whole sorry mess, - they could advocate that position.

A Dail committee, no matter how powerful, will politicise the process of inquiry.