The Labour Party

newman10

Where stands the Labour Party today.

Has the Social of Socialism been replaced by the Capital of Capitalism thus depriving the marginalized of a voice

Any thoughts

laoch na mona

haven't been socialist in a long time they have been sucked into the centre like all social democrat parties. they still have a bit of union backing but its more well paid public sector union workers. I know several labour voters who now view sinn fein as the party representing their interests

oscarBravo

laoch na mona wrote: »

...they have been sucked into the centre like all social democrat parties.

Why do you suppose that is?

laoch na mona

oscarBravo wrote: »

Why do you suppose that is?

more interested in power then actually making society better

oscarBravo

laoch na mona wrote: »

more interested in power then actually making society better

How do you make society better without being in power?

Banjo String

Eamon Gilmore thinks its reasonable to cut the budget for special needs students by 10% incredible but his own words ........

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Anyone who believes that the Labour Party represents anyone other than the overpaid public service is deluded.
The Labour Party is more right wing than either FG or FF.
Personally I could never contemplate voting for any party controlled and led by former Official IRA figures.

COYW

laoch na mona wrote: »

more interested in power then actually making society better

Well they can't achieve too much in opposition can then? Unless you are including waffling populist nonsense from the opposition benches as an achievement.

laoch na mona wrote: »

haven't been socialist in a long time they have been sucked into the centre like all social democrat parties. they still have a bit of union backing but its more well paid public sector union workers. I know several labour voters who now view sinn fein as the party representing their interests

Can you elaborate on this? Personally, I think they would throw money blindly at everything, if we had it. Just to clarify, by 'throw money' I mean waste without regard, just like the socialist administrations did during the Celtic tiger years. Labour looked great in opposition, just like any decent party does. Looking good in power is a completely different and far more challenging ball game. They will get slaughtered in the next election; like we all said, in the exact same manner as all the other small parties.

View

COYW wrote: »

Just to clarify, by 'throw money' I mean waste without regard, just like the socialist administrations did during the Celtic tiger years.

You are confusing stupidity with socialism.

"Socialists" - by which I mean mainstream EU Socialists - have to be just as strict about waste in public spending as anyother political party. Public services cost money to run and more waste means less services they can provide for the public.

Le_Dieux

For me, there is nothing wrong with the LP. It's the gobsh*te who leads them is the problem. He is walking around with his head on another planet, and cannot see just what is going on around him or how he is DESTROYING what was once a Party representing the PEOPLE.

Penrose, Shortall ( whom he stabbed in the back), Brougham, Keaveney ( whom he has done his damndest to get rid of), and now Nulty, along with ( I don't know how many) councillors have deserted what can only be described as a shinking ship, then lied through your teeth trying to claim victory during the past week on bedget agreements. You, Gilmore, are an absolute disgrace to a) the human race, & b) ANY Labour movement.

PLEASE get the hell out before You have the public categorising the LP in the same bed as the PD's & the Greens.

Nodin

Le_Dieux wrote: »

For me, there is nothing wrong with the LP. It's the gobsh*te who leads them is the problem. He is walking around with his head on another planet, and cannot see just what is going on around him or how he is DESTROYING what was once a Party representing the PEOPLE.

Penrose, Shortall ( whom he stabbed in the back), Brougham, Keaveney ( whom he has done his damndest to get rid of), and now Nulty, along with ( I don't know how many) councillors have deserted what can only be described as a shinking ship, then lied through your teeth trying to claim victory during the past week on bedget agreements. You, Gilmore, are an absolute disgrace to a) the human race, & b) ANY Labour movement.

PLEASE get the hell out before You have the public categorising the LP in the same bed as the PD's & the Greens.

He's not doing anything Rabbite or any of his predecessors wouldn't have done. Think back to the Dicky Spring turnaround.

dar926

Never Thought I would see the day when Down Syndrome Kids would have to be holding placards outside the gates of Leinster house... that's what Labour have achieved in government plain and simple.. Its disgusting.

Le_Dieux

Nodin wrote: »

He's not doing anything Rabbite or any of his predecessors wouldn't have done. Think back to the Dicky Spring turnaround.

Totally agree, but givememore has put a whole new complexion to the term 'turncoat' He lost total concept to everything attributed with Labour. How ANY man can stab a fellow party member in the back for a bearded liar in another political party is beyond me. And thwen drive up to Ballyfermott in a big BMW in the worst economic downturn in the history of this State to attend some ceremony for UNICEF ( I think).

He has TOTALLY lost the plot altogether.

Nodin

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Totally agree, but givememore has put a whole new complexion to the term 'turncoat' He lost total concept to everything attributed with Labour. How ANY man can stab a fellow party member in the back for a bearded liar in another political party is beyond me. And thwen drive up to Ballyfermott in a big BMW in the worst economic downturn in the history of this State to attend some ceremony for UNICEF ( I think).

He has TOTALLY lost the plot altogether.

...again, he's not doing anything new. Perhaps the difference lies in the way he (and Rabbite) talked in far more left wing terms than many previous leaders, thus giving false hope. Certainly there were times when I almost cast aside the usual cynicism with regards the party myself.

hyperborean

Most of the votes labour received in the last election were FF voters, once they are returned to the mother ship it might look like devastating but its only equilibrium returning to civil war political sides, FG will again become little brother and the real gangsters will be back in power, maybe even the northy crowd will be stupid enough to try for power with FF, that would make me happy, they would be destroyed.

Le_Dieux

Having always voted for Labour, I am distraught at what that piece of self-centred excuse for a human is doing to the Party. I was googling around and came across this, which I find very interesting to say the least:

http://seamusryan.blogspot.ie/2013/03/labour-party-time-for-change.html

Purely guesswork here, but I can't see that piece of slime named gilmore being around much longer. Of course that doesn't detract from the fact he still has his damn pension:mad:

boundlessSea

Eamon Gilmore is not a very good leader but changing him would not achieve much on its own. Labour is supposed to be concerned for primarily the working class but its biggest priority seems to be in maintaining the pay of middle class public sector workers which seems to be of more importance than reducing unemployment.

They have not done enough in government to reduce inequality, the main positive thing they done is to help reduce the unmaintainable budget deficit.

Zubeneschamali

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Having always voted for Labour, I am distraught at what that piece of self-centred excuse for a human is doing to the Party.

In 1977, the Labour party got a pasting after a period in Coalition with FG, and the party split, with the people opposed to getting in bed with FG forming the Socialist Labour Party.

The Socialist Labour Party itself lasted 5 years, during which it split 3 times.

Nothing is happening in Labour that hasn't happened every 10 years or so, whenever they enter Government.

daithicarr

dar926 wrote: »

Never Thought I would see the day when Down Syndrome Kids would have to be holding placards outside the gates of Leinster house... that's what Labour have achieved in government plain and simple.. Its disgusting.

Thats just stupid as if its just Labour making that call. its What FG/LB have achieved. With FF's mess.

Breaks your heart to think so many people get angry with one bunch of idiots and run back to the last bunch. Thats going to change things for the better.

sigh

dar926

Oh i agree with you.. it is what FG/LB have achieved...100 per cent.. But this business of blaming FF for everything is far past the point now... they had a clean slate and a opportunity to change how things are done.. but they just continued on where FF left off... and now things are far worse than we ever imagined...Seriously own it.. Its not FFs mess its F***ing YOURS!

Zubeneschamali

dar926 wrote: »

But this business of blaming FF for everything is far past the point now... they had a clean slate

A clean slate? Do you even know what a deficit is?

dar926

They may have had the deficit but they had plenty of ideas on how to deal with it before the election... Enda Kenny said himself he was wiping the slate clean and starting a fresh chapter in Irish Politics.. His words not mine... he made plenty of promises and statements before the election so blaming FF doesnt stand up any more...

Zubeneschamali

dar926 wrote: »

They may have had the deficit but they had plenty of ideas on how to deal with it before the election...

Yes, tax hikes (Labour) and spending cuts (FG).

And things are not far worse than we imagined. The bailout has more-or-less worked, and we'll be exiting the Troika program on time. After FF destroyed the countries economic independence and called in the IMF, I'd say we're in a far, far better position than anyone who saw Cowen crash us into a ditch could have hoped.

dar926

Well I know I'm not in a far better position... or anybody I know.. Far worse cuts in every sector both FG and Labour promised to protect.. We might be exiting the Troika but at what expense, All FG has done is bankrupted the taxpayer.. And if I remember correctly thats the plan FF had from the start.. Again Where is the new chapter in Irish politics because I certainly haven't seen it, just a continuation Of a Fianna Fail agenda on the Irish taxpayer... At least FF had the decency to smile as they slit our throats!

Zubeneschamali

dar926 wrote: »

Far worse cuts in every sector both FG and Labour promised to protect.

Name one sector hit by far worse cuts than indicated in the programme for government.

Banjo String

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Name one sector hit by far worse cuts than indicated in the programme for government.

Homeowners.

bumper234

Le_Dieux wrote: »

For me, there is nothing wrong with the LP. It's the gobsh*te who leads them is the problem. He is walking around with his head on another planet, and cannot see just what is going on around him or how he is DESTROYING what was once a Party representing the PEOPLE.

Penrose, Shortall ( whom he stabbed in the back), Brougham, Keaveney ( whom he has done his damndest to get rid of), and now Nulty, along with ( I don't know how many) councillors have deserted what can only be described as a shinking ship, then lied through your teeth trying to claim victory during the past week on bedget agreements. You, Gilmore, are an absolute disgrace to a) the human race, & b) ANY Labour movement.

PLEASE get the hell out before You have the public categorising the LP in the same bed as the PD's & the Greens.

I think it's too late for that.

Zubeneschamali

SamHall wrote: »

Homeowners.

What about them?

Godge

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Name one sector hit by far worse cuts than indicated in the programme for government.

The public service. The government promised no more pay cuts and broke that promise.

Zubeneschamali

Godge wrote: »

The public service. The government promised no more pay cuts and broke that promise.

I just looked through the programme for government again, and I don't see that promise.

Looking at the two progress reports, there's nothing there about any such commitment, either.

What they promised to do was reform the public service and deliver savings and value.

creedp

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I just looked through the programme for government again, and I don't see that promise.

Looking at the two progress reports, there's nothing there about any such commitment, either.

What they promised to do was reform the public service and deliver savings and value.

No they simply unilaterally reneged on an Agreement not to introduce further pay cuts until mid-2014.

Eamon Gilmore is not a very good leader but changing him would not achieve much on its own. Labour is supposed to be concerned for primarily the working class but its biggest priority seems to be in maintaining the pay of middle class public sector workers which seems to be of more importance than reducing unemployment.

Which is it though .. on the one hand we get the above, i.e. Labour protecting the public sector worker above all while on the other hand Labour introduce further pay cut and reductions in terms and conditions for PS workers. Given the so-called priority of protecting PS workers above all other sectors can we now expect a raft of tax increases for the real workers and SW reductions to bring the system back into equilibrium?

Zubeneschamali

creedp wrote: »

No they simply unilaterally reneged on an Agreement not to introduce further pay cuts until mid-2014.

Do I gather that you are talking about Croke Park 1? That wasn't a promise before or after the election: it was a deal negotiated to further the actual promise in the programme: to reform the public sector, reduce costs and deliver value.

Fin_ally

Had to jump in. The hypocrisy and bologna is smothering.

The word 'Socialism' gets thrown around like the definition means incapable of managing any kind of financial accounts, giving money away to the detriment of the economy. And this usually comes from people who believe the right wing way is frugal and sensible.

Neither is 100% true. Simply put, one, (in our context at least) is supposed to look out for the little guy, the marginalised. The other, believing that helping business and investors etc. will create a strong economy and in turn a trickle down effect will help everyone.

So can we dispense with the subtext that anyone left or socialist is fiscally incompetent? I mean recent history? No?
The right or center right secured private bond holders at the expense of the state, (the state being the taxpayer contrary to what you'd be led to believe).

Labour have lost me as a voter. I solemnly believe they will go pretty far to stay/get in power. Like any democratic party not every Labour member is on board with this, but I can't call myself a Labour supporter. Having said that I truly don't believe the current leadership are Labour supporters either. At least not judged by their cheerleading of the like of Reilly.
They will be decimated at the next election and Fine Gael will pay the price of attempting to clean up yet another Fianna Fail mess. Not excusing Fine Gael, just broadly speaking, that's what has/does and will happen as we emerge from the latest rubble left by Fianna Fail.

As previously posted the civil war party lines will settle back to where they feel comfortable, with their supporters heads firmly up their own arses regardless of what the state comes to.
I'm saddened that some believe a few executives in one bank 'duped' an entire system of government and the (usually) biggest political party in the land, causing the nations financial collapse.
Labour should have either stayed in opposition or stuck the boot in on more than one occasion with their coalition partners.
Maybe they'll pull the old Fianna Fail chestnut, of 'We've cleaned house' from under the couch come the election after next.

Zubeneschamali

Fin_ally wrote: »

They will be decimated at the next election and Fine Gael will pay the price of attempting to clean up yet another Fianna Fail mess.

From wikipedia:

1982 to 1987, the Labour Party participated in coalition governments with Fine Gael. In the later part of the second of these coalition terms, the country's poor economic and fiscal situation required strict curtailing of government spending, and the Labour Party bore much of the blame for unpopular cutbacks in health and other public services. The nadir for the Labour party was the 1987 general election where it received only 6.4% of the vote

hyperborean

If you lay with dogs you will catch flea's,


They should have known better than to get into bed with FG, and again they will learn the hard way,

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

They should have known better than to get into bed with FG, and again they will learn the hard way,

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

bumper234

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

What policies have been implemented since they joined government?

The policy to cut social welfare?

The policy to bring in student fees?

The policy to close hospitals and garda stations?

The policy to pay back the bond holders (labours way lolaments)?

The policy to cut funding to special needs children?

Yeah Labour have done such a fine upstanding job of proving they are a party for the average working man and woman. Turns out they are just the bootlickers of the rich just like any politician.

DoesNotCompute

boundlessSea wrote: »

Labour is supposed to be concerned for primarily the working class but its biggest priority seems to be in maintaining the pay of middle class public sector workers which seems to be of more importance than reducing unemployment.

Really? Cos it's a Labour minister who is eroding the wages and working conditions of middle class public sector workers, via the FEMPI legislation.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, they should sit forever safely on the opposition benches, and have none of their policies adopted, and look after their seats by never taking any risks.

Entering government with FF or FG has destroyed every small party since the state began, They didnt have to go into government with them!

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2 then pounced,

They had enough about them before entering government to get close I believe, What with being the only party to vote against the bank bailout and the confidence they had in opposition they were a cert to break the civil war political lines but no, they took a risk and failed,

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2

I'm sure Lucinda Creighton would be doing a fine job with Social Protection!

Jawgap

Their response to the Anglo Tapes has been less than inspiring - lots of furrowed brows and pious hand wringing, but nothing constructive about what they are going to do about it........saying that, FG have been about the same.

I was always good for a 2nd or 3rd preference for Labour - and the occasional first preference, depending on the candidate, but I will never vote for them again or give them any preference.

I thought there would be some institutional memory of previous coalitions and they would have learned - making them a good counterweight to FG to the point where their moderating influence would yield decent government, but they've proved to be as venial as the rest of them.

Plus, Gilmore's taking of a non-economic ministry smacked of abdication - I think that was a strategic error of the first degree, and it really set the tone of what has followed.

View

hyperborean wrote: »

Entering government with FF or FG has destroyed every small party since the state began, They didnt have to go into government with them!

Its quite simple, they should have let FG go into a minority government with some independents and waited for a year or 2 then pounced,

Ah, the old "The party first and to hell with the people" strategy.

hyperborean

View wrote: »

Ah, the old "The party first and to hell with the people" strategy.

The old, " waffle without substance analagies" strategy to make minority parties look bad,

The country is not being served right with the concessions being made, a left wing governement would have been better for the people than the current same as it ever was FG majority government,

View

hyperborean wrote: »

The old, " waffle without substance analagies" strategy to make minority parties look bad,

The country is not being served right with the concessions being made, a left wing governement would have been better for the people than the current same as it ever was FG majority government,

There was no prospect of a left wing government at the time. The electorate have never shown much inclination to even consider ANY left wing government.

Second, "Grand coalitions" (of larger parties) work elsewhere in Europe. Most voters of our two main parties would probably have accepted the idea and be happy to vote for their favourite main party at the next election.

You wouldn't really expect "the left" to win a majority of seats in Galway or Tipperary, for instance, because FG & FF formed a "grand coalition", would you?

InchicoreDude

Their response to the Anglo Tapes has been less than inspiring - lots of furrowed brows and pious hand wringing, but nothing constructive about what they are going to do about it........saying that, FG have been about the same.

Not being smart here, this is a genuine question - what would you like them to do about it? What can they do that would make you say "Fair play Labour, well done"?

hyperborean

View wrote: »

There was no prospect of a left wing government at the time. The electorate have never shown much inclination to even consider ANY left wing government.

Second, "Grand coalitions" (of larger parties) work elsewhere in Europe. Most voters of our two main parties would probably have accepted the idea and be happy to vote for their favourite main party at the next election.

You wouldn't really expect "the left" to win a majority of seats in Galway or Tipperary, for instance, because FG & FF formed a "grand coalition", would you?

There was no prospect at the time of the last election,thats not what I was saying though!
There would be a very clear prospect of a left wing government if Labour had stayed out and sat in opposition till now then took a FG minority governement to the polls,

Simply put, with labour in oppsosition FF wouldnt have got the bounce and all the criticism being landed at labour's door would in another form be sitting in FG's lap right now, and the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Sadly they got into bed with FG and the rest is history(labour being consigned)

And the Irish voter gets what it deserves, a laughing stock that is FG.....

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Ha ha! Bless your innocence. If the Labour party supported the Govt or even abstained, voters would blame them for FGs policies, since they could bring the Govt down at any time, but weren't doing so.

The longer it went on, the greater the pressure on individual Labour TDs to split with the party and vote against unpopular measures before the next election.

FF would certainly vote against the Govt to put Labour on the spot, while claiming they were "just doing their job as an opposition party".

There'd be nothing left of the Labour Party bar a front bench if they made it past 2 budget votes.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ha ha! Bless your innocence. If the Labour party supported the Govt or even abstained, voters would blame them for FGs policies, since they could bring the Govt down at any time, but weren't doing so.

The longer it went on, the greater the pressure on individual Labour TDs to split with the party and vote against unpopular measures before the next election.

FF would certainly vote against the Govt to put Labour on the spot, while claiming they were "just doing their job as an opposition party".

There'd be nothing left of the Labour Party bar a front bench if they made it past 2 budget votes.

Your first sentence and the follow up explanation are an indictment of your thought process, Labour wouldnt have had to support a minority government in anything for them to survive till now, FF would have supported them for the first year at the very least, being the same and all.

Zubeneschamali

hyperborean wrote: »

FF would have supported them for the first year at the very least, being the same and all.

Why would FF support them? To help Labour out?

On anything Labour would find uncomfortable, FF would vote against, and force Labour to support cutting welfare, PS pay, healthcare, pensions, schools, taxes on the rich, etc. etc.

hyperborean

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Why would FF support them? To help Labour out?

On anything Labour would find uncomfortable, FF would vote against, and force Labour to support cutting welfare, PS pay, healthcare, pensions, schools, taxes on the rich, etc. etc.

What are you on about? why would FF be helping labour out?

View

hyperborean wrote: »

There was no prospect at the time of the last election,thats not what I was saying though!
There would be a very clear prospect of a left wing government if Labour had stayed out and sat in opposition till now then took a FG minority governement to the polls,

Simply put, with labour in oppsosition FF wouldnt have got the bounce and all the criticism being landed at labour's door would in another form be sitting in FG's lap right now, and the left would in those circumstances walk an election.

Sadly they got into bed with FG and the rest is history(labour being consigned)

And the Irish voter gets what it deserves, a laughing stock that is FG.....

That's one reading of it, another would be for the electorate to decide that Labour was part of the problem, not part of the solution with their moderate voters (most of them) peeling off to the two big parties leaving them as a rump ULA-Lite party.

That is basically what happened in Italy recently where the upstart third party is perceived by its supporters as having forced the main party to hold the door open and let Berlusconi's party back into office (as a junior partner) with the result the third party got hammered in local elections.