Dodgy Sky boxes

Trick of the Tail

I've been reading and hearing a lot lately about these 'dodgy' Sky boxes, i.e. receivers capable of receiving Sky with the decoding done via a broadband connection - 'Cardsharing' it's called.

Knowing Sky's (understandable) strong protection of their service, I wonder how and when they might do something to combat this activity.

Difficult to see what they can do really, since the boxes are all getting their decoding info from a server somewhere on the internet, to which a legitimate Sky card is attached.

Obviously the system is illegal in some way; it will be interesting to see how it's dealt with by Sky, since the uptake of these boxes seems to be reaching epidemic proportions.

By the way, this is a totally innocent thought on my part, I'm a legitimate Sky subscriber and intend staying that way.

excollier

They are mosy definitely not Sky boxes, they are usually cloned Dreamboxes, and that is as much as can be discussed here.

Play To Kill

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Difficult to see what they can do really, since the boxes are all getting their decoding info from a server somewhere on the internet, to which a legitimate Sky card is attached.

There are many things sky can do and are in the process of doing at the moment seemingly. Any card that is used for this is a legit sky card meaning that when sky find a card that is being used it is tied to a name, address and even a bank account number. Every sky card is now displaying a unique 8 or 9 digit code on screen and the guys who have installed these boxes sold them to anyone and they have ended up on public display in pubs. All sky need to do is find two pubs where the same code is displayed on screen and they can shut down everyone that is connected to that card and prosecute for theft of service.

There were also rumors that sky could release an online virus that can track the cards and kill them but probably the simplest way of all is just to change their encryption system to combat the problem and send new cards to all their customers like they have done in the past.

St Senan

The sooner the better something is done to stop this. The country is full of these illegal systems. I just noticed today on a local paper a guy is advertising it and saying that a new Satellite receiver has arrived with many extra channels..... A Broadband/internet connection is required

icdg

Guys if this thread goes into any depth whatsover about the hows of cardsharing as opposed to what Sky can do about it, its instant closure time.

Play To Kill

A few years ago sky threatened to pull their channels from Chorus/NTL when their boxes were chipped in Ireland and the UK, I'd imagine that Liberty Global who own UPC and now Virgin media are now putting pressure on sky to do something as it's not just sky that is loosing revenue to cardsharing. It also has to be damaging in the UK to the likes of BT and Talk Talk who also provide TV services so I can't see it continuing much longer. It would be foolish to waste money on these illegal systems when they will at some point (probably soon) stop working.

mad turnip

I've heard that the reason sky are upgrading everyone to HD for free is to combat this issue as the older sky boxes that do standard definition TV are not capable of using the newer card techniques Sky want to introduce.

Trick of the Tail

ICDG, what Sky can and are doing about it is exactly what I'm interested to discuss, and absolutely not the hows of card sharing.

It does appear on the surface that it would be very difficult to combat it, since there's no way of knowing who has the original card; of course if Sky were to follow up every advertisement for the equipment, and even perhaps order one, they could then maybe trace back, via the IP number of the server, where the card reader is.

However that might just be a server somewhere, not necessarily at the perpetrator's abode.

And at this stage there must be hundreds of people knocking them out, and servers all over the place.

I'd imagine an encryption change would be part of the solution, but even then, if the hardware reading the card is legitimate - if modified - how to prevent it from continuing to work as proper subscribers' cards would have to?

If I were Sky I think I might be considering some high profile legal action against some of the more prolific suppliers, scapegoats if you will.

Link that with publicity that people buying and using these illegal boxes may also face prosecution, and you might scare the market off.

Opinions?

Play To Kill

mad turnip wrote: »

I've heard that the reason sky are upgrading everyone to HD for free is to combat this issue as the older sky boxes that do standard definition TV are not capable of using the newer card techniques Sky want to introduce.

Yes, seemingly they loose HD and and also premium channels. Mid to end of Jnne was the rumoured time for this to happen but I've been reading on a UK forum for the past few weeks that some people have already lost them.

mad turnip

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

ICDG, what Sky can and are doing about it is exactly what I'm interested to discuss, and absolutely not the hows of card sharing.

It does appear on the surface that it would be very difficult to combat it, since there's no way of knowing who has the original card; of course if Sky were to follow up every advertisement for the equipment, and even perhaps order one, they could then maybe trace back, via the IP number of the server, where the card reader is.

However that might just be a server somewhere, not necessarily at the perpetrator's abode.

And at this stage there must be hundreds of people knocking them out, and servers all over the place.

I'd imagine an encryption change would be part of the solution, but even then, if the hardware reading the card is legitimate - if modified - how to prevent it from continuing to work as proper subscribers' cards would have to?

If I were Sky I think I might be considering some high profile legal action against some of the more prolific suppliers, scapegoats if you will.

Link that with publicity that people buying and using these illegal boxes may also face prosecution, and you might scare the market off.

Opinions?

The boxes are not illegal as far as I'm aware, even watching Sky TV on these boxes isn't illegal (it just breaks their terms of service for using modified software I presume). The illegal part is the resharing part if thats even illegal at all.

Play To Kill

It would surely be at least considered to be fraud as it is in the UK


Four men have been jailed in Derby for stealing Virgin premium channels and providing them to consumers under the name Starview.

Using legitimate Virgin Media boxes and subscriptions, they were then able to stream the content to online servers, where those who bought modified set-top boxes could access it.

Paul Hartrick, Melvin Howard, Anthony Ginnivan and Amber Ahmed, were imprisoned for a total of eleven years. A fifth man, Jeong Woo You, fled back to Korea after being granted bail following his initial arrest.

Police estimate that the men were able to gain around £100,000 through running Starview, with Virgin Media estimating the equivalence in lost subscriptions at £32 million.

Detective Constable Adam Govan, investigating officer in the case, said: “This was a sophisticated fraud, taking place on an international scale.

“The jailing of these four men sends out a message that people who involve themselves in this kind of crime can be tracked down and will be brought to justice.

“This may be seen as a faceless crime but in the end it is Virgin Media customers who lose out because the company has to raise prices to make up for its losses.”

Virgin Media were able to sign up to the service and track it down to where it was being run from a home in Littleover.

Ironically, despite the jailing of the men behind the Starview fraud, the set-top box manufacturer, Irumtek, based in Korea, is believed to have made the most money from the operation.

While Paul Hartrick pleaded that he had only sold 1,500 of the boxes, police believe at least 12,000 modified boxes were sold.

The Starview operation ran between February 2010 to February 2011.

The surprise, really, is that the men didn’t think they would get caught.

In the meantime, Virgin Media have been provided with a full list of Starview customers to consider making individual prosecutions.

Karl Stein

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

If I were Sky I think I might be considering some high profile legal action against some of the more prolific suppliers, scapegoats if you will.

Doomed to fail. It's a bit like the illegal drug trade - there'll always be someone to fill the void if there's money to be made.

Link that with publicity that people buying and using these illegal boxes may also face prosecution, and you might scare the market off.

That would be a little like prosecuting the 'stoners' instead of going after the 'dealers', would take quite a lot of resources, and would do little to stem the 'dealers' which would probably have little effect on supply.

I see dodgy boxes v genuine as analogous to branded smartphones versus the Chinese knock-offs. The branded phones are slick and well made (Sky service) but costly. The Chinese knock offs aren't as slick, mightn't be as reliable, but are attractive because they will do most of what the branded phones will do only for cheaper. They're worth the risk.

If Sky offered better value, perhaps more targeted services, the dodgy boxes would not be as attractive. The vast majority of people will not want to break the law and buy genuine products. I'd like to be able to watch the Heineken Cup games that involve the Irish teams but there's no way I'd pay ~€60 PM for most of the year for the privilege so I go to my Brother's or to the pub.

FREETV

There isn't much worth watching on any pay television platform to bother going down the pirate route, the Movie channels are pure muck, only the Sports addicts would benefit.

I would never take the risk/hassle as by doing a search you can watch free streams everywhere on the net of films and different recent television shows without leaving yourself open to any form of prosecution without having to worry about door bells and knocks or look over your shoulder.

bitburger

it isnt illegal to own a dreambox, they are a highly customisable set top box that is used by many for recieving free to air tv, the issue comes when people use them to cardshare, there is an option somewhere deep inside to get decode info from a server, the unscrupulous types used this to internet share and the rest is history as they say, im pretty sure the card server option was originally intended to be used for less illegal activities.

St Senan

I remember years ago back in the days of analogue sky,some guys were supplying chipped cards to decode the sky signal. As far as I remember sky brought someone in Ireland to court and they lost the case as what this guy was doing in the judges eyes was not illegal at the time in Ireland. So what sky done then to counter act this was to change their signal 3 times a year that only their cards can receive it, that meant that people were paying once off payment £100 for cards that only worked for 4 months. I don't know what they can do now to stop this card sharing but I hope they do something soon. Its not just dreamboxes either as far as I know it's any type of box that has internet capabilities like the Ferguson Arivas and the Amiko aliens that are been used.

MrFrisp

Well,they must have some sort of plan,,as they have put a dead stop to it in Australia.

No doubt it won't be long before whatever "cure" they have for it will be over here.

Having said that,,no doubt somebody else will find a way around that too.
.

St Senan

Sky digital has been around since 1998 It has taken roughly 10 years for this Illegal sharing to become popular. so hopefully what ever sky will do now that it cant be hacked, cloned, copied or shared.

NIMAN

It is rife at present. You only have to look at the Classifieds and the likes of Donedeal to see boxes for sale.

Loads of people I work with have them, and quite a few guys actually sell them i.e. they are the main card and server.

I know a few of the fella's have been saying recently that the pictures are breaking up more often, and there are reports on the net that $ky are currently running trials to try to break or block the service to people who are cardsharing.

At the end of the day, if people can get the full satellite package for £10 per month instead of £60, then you will always have people looking for it, and people prepared to take the risk of supplying it. But I have no doubt that something will come along that will put an end to it all.

Me, I could have got it in but currently am happy with Saorview and Freesat, which covers me for 95% of my normal TV viewing anyway. The only thing I miss is the sports channels but to be honest I wasn't watching them as much as I thought I was anyway. So even £10 per month for all the $ky channels still didn't interest me.

Uncle Mclovin

Navarre wrote: »

I remember years ago back in the days of analogue sky,some guys were supplying chipped cards to decode the sky signal. As far as I remember sky brought someone in Ireland to court and they lost the case as what this guy was doing in the judges eyes was not illegal at the time in Ireland. So what sky done then to counter act this was to change their signal 3 times a year that only their cards can receive it, that meant that people were paying once off payment £100 for cards that only worked for 4 months. I don't know what they can do now to stop this card sharing but I hope they do something soon. Its not just dreamboxes either as far as I know it's any type of box that has internet capabilities like the Ferguson Arivas and the Amiko aliens that are been used.

Why do you hope Sky figure out a solution to this? Is it affecting you in some way?

NIMAN

Don't you know, its taking money away from those EPL footballers. They're starving.

St Senan

Yep it is affecting my business.

Uncle Mclovin

To be honest its hard to see how Sky will stop it. It is however becoming a huge issue. I have even seen pubs with these boxes which is just ridiculous as they will definitely be caught at some stage.

I'm sorry to hear that its affecting your business. Don't feel one bit sorry for Sky though. They've been fleecing their customers long enough.

flutered

has there not a big court case which sky lost over something similar, something about a greek or albanian card being used in a pub.

St Senan

Uncle Mclovin wrote: »

To be honest its hard to see how Sky will stop it. It is however becoming a huge issue. I have even seen pubs with these boxes which is just ridiculous as they will definitely be caught at some stage.

I'm sorry to hear that its affecting your business. Don't feel one bit sorry for Sky though. They've been fleecing their customers long enough.

There are 2 guys down this way who are in direct competition to me and these guys have turned to the dark side of the force supply these boxes and all that people will see is that they can get all channels including movies and sports for €10 a month compared to what i can offer them which is Freesat and Saorview.

NIMAN

flutered wrote: »

has there not a big court case which sky lost over something similar, something about a greek or albanian card being used in a pub.

This one?

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tech/news/a343699/british-pub-landlady-wins-sky-tv-satellite-card-case.html

St Senan

flutered wrote: »

has there not a big court case which sky lost over something similar, something about a greek or albanian card being used in a pub.

As far as i know it was not card sharing in that case. It was Premier league football been shown through a Greek TV provider.

michael999999

flutered wrote: »

has there not a big court case which sky lost over something similar, something about a greek or albanian card being used in a pub.

They weren't using sky's signal or service. These guys were simply streaming in a foreign service.

excollier

It breaks my heart to see RM and his company not making quite as much profit as he would like.

NIMAN

Navarre wrote: »

There are 2 guys down this way who are in direct competition to me and these guys have turned to the dark side of the force supply these boxes and all that people will see is that they can get all channels including movies and sports for €10 a month compared to what i can offer them which is Freesat and Saorview.

Must be hard for you to compete with that. In work I would know of maybe 50 people who have moved over to Dreamboxes in the last couple of years.

Only thing is, there are still loads of people out there who are not up to date with all the latest tech, who pay for $ky, rent films from Xtravision, buy CDs etc. For every person who streams the latest blockbuster off the net, there's another who goes to the cinema to see it.

snaps

sky must be suffering, its taken me weeks to convince them i want to cancel. they offered me everything under the sun, even 6 months free, but just wanted rid. I was paying out 110€ a month for sky and setanta. im finding i record an awful amount of freesat stuff which i watch at my own leisure. We have a foreign sub as my wife is Polish, the only thing I miss from sky is the cricket and to some extent the rugby, but even the polish stations are showing more rugby now.

Sky's bubble is there to burst, its just to damn expensive, an overpriced product that needs bringing into the future. I mean movies is not a premium product anymore now we have netflix etc etc. Basic channels is not a premium product either. Only thing worth paying for is Sport. But you cant get sport as a basic sub, and HD should be a standard product now too. I think sky must be the only provider in europe that still charges for HD. Correct me if im wrong.

snaps

mad turnip wrote: »

I've heard that the reason sky are upgrading everyone to HD for free is to combat this issue as the older sky boxes that do standard definition TV are not capable of using the newer card techniques Sky want to introduce.

The main reason this is being done is to tempt customers to take out the HD sub. Also sooner or later space can be freed up by moving dvbs mpeg 2 transponders to dvbs2 mpeg 4 transponders allowing more channels per transponder, also more HD channels. There is truth out there that the older HD boxes wont be able to handle the new counter measures about to be unleashed by sky. Also these older HD boxes are much slower in processing time (Decoding) than newer ones. Its already been reported that people with older HD boxes are having glitching and freezing of channels due to this problem.

old_aussie

Card sharing was big in Oz around 2006 to 2008.

I had over 20 people hanging off one genuine card.

Dreamboxes were all the rage.

Oh the memories of the "good old days"

Don't start me on "Gold Cards"

NIMAN

So does card sharing not work in Oz any more?

listermint

Navarre wrote: »

Sky digital has been around since 1998 It has taken roughly 10 years for this Illegal sharing to become popular. so hopefully what ever sky will do now that it cant be hacked, cloned, copied or shared.

The fact is sky have reached a stage where they are effectively ripping people off. In years where the global economy is in ultimate decline how can anyone expect people to pay +110 Euro every single month.

The price increases have very little to do with fraud and everything to do with sky outbidding all competition and effectively (for no value reason) over paying for premiership football.

Why any company can balance paying 3 Billion odd for rights to football and then raising customer prices 15% to take up the slack its a laughable business model.

None the less its the same effect as over taxing your paye workers, people will find a black market out there. Not saying its right or wrong but customers are happy to pay reasonable prices for a reasonable product. You cant bleed your clients dry it just doesnt work. Needs balance.

excollier

Makes Sky sound like government - only difference is, Sky are optional and totally avoidable, thankfully.

old_aussie

NIMAN wrote: »

So does card sharing not work in Oz any more?

lol NO

The original foxtel, austar(now foxtel)cards are married to the box on activation.

JustAddWater

mad turnip wrote: »

I've heard that the reason sky are upgrading everyone to HD for free is to combat this issue as the older sky boxes that do standard definition TV are not capable of using the newer card techniques Sky want to introduce.

Do you have a source for this? I'm with sky SD subscription and never heard of free HD upgrade. I called and they insisted on €15 per month

listermint

excollier wrote: »

Makes Sky sound like government - only difference is, Sky are optional and totally avoidable, thankfully.

That wasnt my point. My point is their business model is laughable, and if you read my post you would have seen that i said their 'business model' is laughable.


Understand ?


Kill the Goose that lays the golden egg so to speak.

listermint

JustAddWater wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? I'm with sky SD subscription and never heard of free HD upgrade. I called and they insisted on €15 per month

No one has a source for this btw, its rubbish talk that has been dished out from installers to customer service reps to ops manager etc etc and has been waffled about for 2 years. There has been no organised concerted effort to date to do this. One would assume they may make and effort next year at a start. But having sploshed 3 Billions on rights it would be obvious to think where it the cash going to come from for a massive cross border hardware upgrade for free would be.

Until then it will be drips and drabs and right offs for the rest.

Skull Murphy

listermint wrote: »

Understand ?

He's on a crusade against the evil empires. Look at his sig.

MrFrisp

NIMAN wrote: »

This one?

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tech/news/a343699/british-pub-landlady-wins-sky-tv-satellite-card-case.html

This is a similar route that my local Inn Keeper has taken.

Got rid of all sky,and has about 5 different dishes now,and shows all different sports.

And he doesn't pay a cent to sky.

Saves him thousands and thousands of Euro a year.
.

excollier

Skull Murphy wrote: »

He's on a crusade against the evil empires. Look at his sig.

Not really, but I don't see any reason to pay unnecessarily, especially when most satellite content is fta. If folk belive they need to pay to watch BBC etc thinking Sky is the only way to receive it in their area (and Sky never made any effort to clarify or refute this myth) then I feel I should point it out whenever the opportunity arises.
Same for Microsoft /Apple, why would anyone pay for a computer OS? I intensly dislike near monopolies and lazy governments, they do little (if any) good and keep on taking money from the ill informed. Unfortunately I cannot avoid taxes. I am not a large wealthy corporation.

excollier

MrFrisp wrote: »

This is a similar route that my local Inn Keeper has taken.

Got rid of all sky,and has about 5 different dishes now,and shows all different sports.

And he doesn't pay a cent to sky.

Saves him thousands and thousands of Euro a year.
.

Good man!

MrFrisp

excollier wrote: »

Good man!

Not sure if your being sarcastic there now,,but I meant he's doing it totally legal.

Different dishes pointing at different satellites so getting nearly all the channels from around Europe.

No sub to sky required..He doesn't even use any of their equipment.
.

theblueirish

What sky are in the process of doing now to combat this is a new way of pairing the card to the receiver which the "dreambox" type receivers cannot manipulate (yet).
At the minute the Sky Sd boxes and some of the Thompson branded HD boxes cannot handle this new type of pairing and are being phased out/no longer supported by Sky.

I have been using these type of boxes for about 6 years now, I don't pay a sub to anyone as I share one type of card for another, the way cardsharing was supposed to and did run at the beginning.

Sky have tried a few different things over the years to counteract fraud. I don't thing it was that much of an issue to them a few years ago as there were people who only subscribed to Sky Uk/ROI so they could share with people in Europe to get more sports and movies than were available here.

Its the explosion over the last twelve months of people selling cheap chinese boxes (a popular one is called a skybox) and selling year long subs to all channels for as little as £30 per year which is being addressed now.

If anyone is thinking of going down this route I would say the bubble has burst and you may not get any value from it. You would be better of phoning sky and threatening to leave and you might get a deal for 6 months.

excollier

@Mr Frisp, Not sarcastic at all, I set up a local pub with a few dishes to do the same, only thing is he has a mixture of foreign subs and fta stuff, Sky don't get a sniff.
But it's like playing hide and seek, re-aligning dishes for any changes.

snaps

JustAddWater wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? I'm with sky SD subscription and never heard of free HD upgrade. I called and they insisted on €15 per month

its not a free upgrade, but a replacement of your old SD box for an hd one. The 15€ hd charge still applies

MrFrisp

excollier wrote: »

@Mr Frisp, Not sarcastic at all, I set up a local pub with a few dishes to do the same, only thing is he has a mixture of foreign subs and fta stuff, Sky don't get a sniff.
But it's like playing hide and seek, re-aligning dishes for any changes.

Cool.

Yeah,,I think it's one of the only ways for the pubs to go now.

What sky charge pubs to show sports now is a bigger joke than what they charge domestic customers.
.

MrFrisp

theblueirish wrote: »

Its the explosion over the last twelve months of people selling cheap chinese boxes (a popular one is called a skybox) and selling year long subs to all channels for as little as £30 per year which is being addressed now.

And also the explosion of the commercial sub providers.

When all this started out it was a few guys setting up a few lines for friends and family,,maybe between 8-12 people.

Then the big guys come along and start doing it for hundreds and hundreds of people off just a few cards.

It was never going to last much longer when that happened.
.

swoofer

@mad turnip, I pay extra per month for HD so does this upgrade mean SKY are dropping the monthly HD charge?? Or do you mean they are giving a free HD box?

NIMAN

You can hardly claim they are giving you a 'free' HD box if this box requires you to pay an extra €15 to get the HD channels.

I'm guessing they swap out your SD box for a HD box, but you don't get the HD channels unless you pay for it?