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ScumLord

After the zombie apocalypse has run it's course and most the zombies have rotted to nothing, what state do you think humans will be left in?

We'll say that the human population has gone back to pre industrialisation levels of about 1 billion people throughout the world. This was the stable population of humans worldwide for many millennia before we discovered how to get more food out of the land.


Do you think we'll be mostly hunter gathers staying in small family groups of about 20ish? These would be highly mobile groups with no decent resources to guard.


The next step up from that would be a farming community of around 150 people. These groups would have a fairly secure food source which would mean they'd be worth attacking.


On from that would be the city state. City states could have around 10,000 people inside, they would need to control the land around them to farm food so would have an extended population surrounding the city. The city would more than likely be walled for security. They would have plenty of resources worth raiding but would be much more difficult to attack.


Maybe the nation will survive? Maybe the idea of the republic of Ireland is too deeply ingrained in us now and we'll look to resurrect it at the earliest opportunity. Ireland is small enough for this to be possible.


Or maybe the likes of the Swiss safe in their extensive bunkers throughout the zombie apocalypse, they have a fully functioning government and army and could well roll across Europe creating the Swiss empire.

Even one American aircraft carrier turning up off Irish shores could occupy the country continuing on to conquer the rest of Europe with time.

Tzar Chasm

I dont think we'd regress too far, I think we should be reasonably capable of getting back to 18th century levels of industrilisation and technology relatively quickly, ideas are hard to kill, and once the knowledge exists it will be used, once we had a telegram system and steam engines'powering stuff we would rapidly progress toanearly20th century level ax we'dont'need'all the incremental advqnces, we already know where we want to go.

I can't see scavanger groups lasting in ireland, maybe on the continent but there's not enough to support them here without engaging inajor conflicts.

I would bet that we returned to the systems we have been using since the normans came of townslands, parishes, villages, each area averaging a population of 400-500.

towns/cities would arise but more imo as centers of trade and learning than strongholds, I would expect the college towns to lead the way in re establishing themselves in this front.

overall our geography and history make ireland an ideal case for rebuilding civilization, we kept learning alive once before, the task may fall to us again.


oh I wouldn't worry too much about the qmericans in their aircraft carriers, they have one major achilles heel, fuel & supplies, a carrier group cut offrom'its supply chain would grind to halt long before the z's started to decompose.

ScumLord

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I dont think we'd regress too far, I think we should be reasonably capable of getting back to 18th century levels of industrilisation and technology relatively quickly, ideas are hard to kill, and once the knowledge exists it will be used,

I'd agree for the most part, if you have a few different types of college educated engineers in your group and there's very little they couldn't achieve. however, even during the 18th century, well going right back to prehistoric times the major difference is that humans always had an international trading network. People in Ireland used resources from around Europe and into the middle east, even though it would be small scale by todays standards it was well established.

The last time the european trade network would have collapsed would have been when the Roman empire collapsed and we can see what that did to Europe, we completely crippled the entire continent and it was nearly a thousand years later before humanity caught up to the technology of the Romans again.

once we had a telegram system and steam engines'powering stuff we would rapidly progress toanearly20th century level ax we'dont'need'all the incremental advqnces, we already know where we want to go.

Could we in Ireland manufacture say a circuit board from start to finish? I don't think we could, can we make rubber? Will we have difficulty isolating elements using just what's available on this island? although having said that I'm sure it's possible to scrounge what we need from current stocks but in the long run I don't think Ireland has the resources to be too advanced.

towns/cities would arise but more imo as centers of trade and learning than strongholds, I would expect the college towns to lead the way in re establishing themselves in this front.

I guess it would depend on how violent the bandits that roam the roadways become. A gang of 30 guys can cause some havoc. Viking raiding parties were probably around that size.

overall our geography and history make ireland an ideal case for rebuilding civilization, we kept learning alive once before, the task may fall to us again.

I think we certainly have the potential and the skills to carry it off, but people will be vulnerable and prime targets for people willing to oppress others for their own gain. We certainly know those types exist here.

Tzar Chasm

we would still be able to trade by sea, historic

ally Bristol has always been the closest major city to where I live, dublin and cork wouldn't have even been considered for trade until the early days of the republic.

people round here have been sailing to britain and the continent for milenia. the fall of Rome was a minor inconvenience to us, nothing more.



not only can we manufacture circuits from scratch, we were amongst the first nations of the world to manufacture ac circuits. nicholan call an created the first induction coil in 1834, he was confronted with the same lack of rubber issue, his solution was to use a beeswax compound.


viking raiding parties would cause a bit of hastle alright, that's why it would be important to get communication and early warning systems operational as quickly as possible.


whilst there are some who would oppress us or attempt to reinstate a feudal society I don't think they could destroy the notions of freedom and democracy from our generation without our active participation.

liberte, egalataie, fraternatie. is a simple but very strong message.

degrassinoel

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

viking raiding parties would cause a bit of hastle alright, that's why it would be important to get communication and early warning systems operational as quickly as possible.

Most of not all of the Martello Towers are still in good shape, and zombie proof too.

ScumLord

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

we would still be able to trade by sea, historic

ally Bristol has always been the closest major city to where I live, dublin and cork wouldn't have even been considered for trade until the early days of the republic.

people round here have been sailing to britain and the continent for milenia. the fall of Rome was a minor inconvenience to us, nothing more.

True, and we would have a huge trading advantage should we clear the island quickly, we can produce an amazing abundance of food, especially meat and dairy in this country. I've heard we produce enough milk here every year to feed over 40 million people. Even at 10% of that capacity we've enough food to feed the current population of Ireland.

Tzar Chasm

also as an aside,wouldn't ya just love to sail around the mediteranian in a galway hooker, unload a herd of cattle in libya, swing down to lebanon for some coffee, back up to italy for some wine and olive oil, then a quick stop over in marakesh for a bit of the quare stuff

Kess73

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I dont think we'd regress too far, I think we should be reasonably capable of getting back to 18th century levels of industrilisation and technology relatively quickly, ideas are hard to kill, and once the knowledge exists it will be used, once we had a telegram system and steam engines'powering stuff we would rapidly progress toanearly20th century level ax we'dont'need'all the incremental advqnces, we already know where we want to go.

I can't see scavanger groups lasting in ireland, maybe on the continent but there's not enough to support them here without engaging inajor conflicts.

I would bet that we returned to the systems we have been using since the normans came of townslands, parishes, villages, each area averaging a population of 400-500.

towns/cities would arise but more imo as centers of trade and learning than strongholds, I would expect the college towns to lead the way in re establishing themselves in this front.

overall our geography and history make ireland an ideal case for rebuilding civilization, we kept learning alive once before, the task may fall to us again.


oh I wouldn't worry too much about the qmericans in their aircraft carriers, they have one major achilles heel, fuel & supplies, a carrier group cut offrom'its supply chain would grind to halt long before the z's started to decompose.

Fuel would hardly be a problem in the short to medium term for the modern aircraft carriers and modern warships given that there was a switch to nuclear powered aircraft carriers years ago.

One fully stocked aircraft carrier could in theory be a viable threat for a decade or more.

degrassinoel

would it be though?

I know they are well armed but they rely more on the range of their aircraft for defence and attack rather than the ship's armaments. How many airstrikes would it be able to sortie before they ran out of aviation fuel?

ScumLord

degrassinoel wrote: »

would it be though?

I know they are well armed but they rely more on the range of their aircraft for defence and attack rather than the ship's armaments. How many airstrikes would it be able to sortie before they ran out of aviation fuel?

I'm not sure but it's probably enough to wage an extended military operation. If they're not facing an actual army with a proper air force how many planes would they really need to send up? I do know that they constantly have planes in the air circling the ship at all times, so they must have a fair amount of fuel on board.

It would probably be in some sort of a fleet as well.

degrassinoel

ah yeah defo, minelayers/sweepers, frigates, destroyers etc..

An A/C carrier wouldn't need any combat patrols airborne in a Z scenario though, search and rescue maybe..

Anyways, bit off topic.

As far as community goes, if it's just ourselves here it'd depend on how many people survive the first year. I'd guess that local governments, ie: mayors & sherriffs kind of thing would take root. Bickering groups would fragment or destroy themselves, successful groups would thrive. Our national government would ultimately come back into power through local elections, though i wouldnt count on seeing that before at least 2-3 years if ever.. depending on the severity of the crisis.

Farmers would do the best out of it, Cities will be abandoned, defensible suburbs will become microfarms, and actual farms will trade and barter and hire. Currency would probably be bartering and trade for food, water, and basic tools and weapons, medical supplies and manual labour. Local scrip maybe, bottlecaps? (Thanks fallout)

General Professions would probably be
Leader Former politician/Policeman/Soldier/Door to Door Salesman or someone/anyone who's proven to be effective or had experience holding a group together.
Doctor Former vet, surgeon, GP or anyone who has the gift and doesnt faint at the sight of a broken finger etc..
Farmer No brownthumbs
Soldier Can swing a hurl and affix a bayonet
Labourer Can swing a hammer

If you cant do any of those, you're probably already a zombie.

ScumLord

degrassinoel wrote: »

As far as community goes, if it's just ourselves here it'd depend on how many people survive the first year. I'd guess that local governments, ie: mayors & sherriffs kind of thing would take root. Bickering groups would fragment or destroy themselves, successful groups would thrive.

I wonder could we see the country split in four along the provinces. I could see that happening. As long as they had some form of council and traded with each other there shouldn't be any reason for conflict. With the reduced population there should be more than enough to go around.

There will be a problem in the beginning trying to resettle the city folk in the countryside.

kieranfitz

degrassinoel wrote: »

would it be though?

I know they are well armed but they rely more on the range of their aircraft for defence and attack rather than the ship's armaments. How many airstrikes would it be able to sortie before they ran out of aviation fuel?

Even so, All those on board with the possible exception of a few spooks will have received quite extensive training in the use of small arms and small unit tactics, and a fully crewed carrier has what, about 5000 aboard.

degrassinoel

ScumLord wrote: »

I wonder could we see the country split in four along the provinces. I could see that happening. As long as they had some form of council and traded with each other there shouldn't be any reason for conflict. With the reduced population there should be more than enough to go around.

There will be a problem in the beginning trying to resettle the city folk in the countryside.

I cant imagine bigotry or any former hatred or mistrust being an issue when every side has a common enemy who is never going to negotiate.

resettlement and mass exodus from cities would be a nightmare, which is why i was saying a year after. That'd give everything time to settle, deaths enroute to wherever, murder, infection, exposure, dehydration, starvation, age, etc would all be factors in diminishing the numbers of evacuees. After a year it would stabilise, though in my own opinion.. anyone living in a city at the beginning of an outbreak is dead, if the infection is to spread rapidly enough to be able to wipe out most of the country, it has to be fast enough to topple a city in less than a day.

Kess73

To be honest some of what is being said here sounds far too organised and far too civilised.

We don't need to imagine what society would be like when the rules fall apart. All we have to do is look at certain parts of the planet right now to see what happens when law and order goes out the window and things like electricity/running water etc are at a premium. Just look at what happens in some of the African countries in 2013 to get an idea of what people are capable of, and also for a look at the types that rise to power and to what lengths they go to to keep that power.


I think that after a few years life would be hell for those trying to cling onto some semblence of their old civilised ways, and those prepared to kill/steal to take what they want will rule through terror until someone worse comes along.

Micky Dolenz

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest some of what is being said here sounds far too organised and far too civilised.

We don't need to imagine what society would be like when the rules fall apart. All we have to do is look at certain parts of the planet right now to see what happens when law and order goes out the window and things like electricity/running water etc are at a premium. Just look at what happens in some of the African countries in 2013 to get an idea of what people are capable of, and also for a look at the types that rise to power and to what lengths they go to to keep that power.


I think that after a few years life would be hell for those trying to cling onto some semblence of their old civilised ways, and those prepared to kill/steal to take what they want will rule through terror until someone worse comes along.

The upside to a Zed apocalypse is the human population would be decimated so you would think things would happen on a much smaller scale with smaller communities.

ScumLord

Kess73 wrote: »

To be honest some of what is being said here sounds far too organised and far too civilised.

We don't need to imagine what society would be like when the rules fall apart. All we have to do is look at certain parts of the planet right now to see what happens when law and order goes out the window and things like electricity/running water etc are at a premium. Just look at what happens in some of the African countries in 2013 to get an idea of what people are capable of, and also for a look at the types that rise to power and to what lengths they go to to keep that power.

I think there is a bit of a difference though. The major example we have of a civalisation falling apart on a grand scale is the Roman empire (although they're decent was gradual), we saw Europe fall apart and lots of small time fighting. The scale of the Roman army disappeared and 30 men would be considered an army.

The thing is though, those were rough times. People thought they had the right to kill their enemies, rape their women and take their children into slavery. Romans didn't have contraception or abortion because they just threw away babies they didn't want, leaving them to die on the rubbish heap of exposure.

It's sort of the same in African countries, the people are denied education and live in ignorance. A small minority of people use extreme violence to control the population and there are no repercussions for their actions so they get worse and worse. Of course their war would end once foreign arms stopped flowing into the country.

We always hear of the big events when armies roll across countries and vicious gangs but we don't hear of the majority of people that just want to make a living for their families. After the Roman empire fell people just got used to their leaders changing, they just paid taxes to the current leader and if he was toppled they just gave their taxes to the next guy.

In the west we've had civilised society for a long time, we don't know how to go to war. Our default tactic for everything is to open discussions.

I think that after a few years life would be hell for those trying to cling onto some semblence of their old civilised ways, and those prepared to kill/steal to take what they want will rule through terror until someone worse comes along.

It could very well happen, but to be really good at oppressing people you need a civilization behind you with structure.

Paddy Cow

ScumLord wrote: »

We'll say that the human population has gone back to pre industrialisation levels of about 1 billion people throughout the world. This was the stable population of humans worldwide for many millennia before we discovered how to get more food out of the land.

1 billion is not a realistic number of survivors. That would be a survival rate of 1 in 7. If you are caught in the middle of a large city (which the vast majority of the world's population would be), you are pretty much fcuked. If the zeds don't get you, disease, starvation, non infected people or packs of wild animals will more than likely finish you off. If you are a child, disabled, elderly, pregnant or in anyway vulnerable, you're pretty much a goner. I think even a survival rate of 1 in 10,000 is being optimistic.

While I would like to think that I would end up in a Rick style community where the leader is a sherif with a moral conscience and wants to do the best by the group, it's more likely that I would end up in a Governor style dictatorship. I imagine that people would break down into a few categories:

1) Those who have survived but are so broken mentally that all they want is a leader who will protect them. They want someone strong and fearless and will be easily manipulated and controlled.

2) Those who have become hardened and roam the countryside raping and pillaging where they can.

3) Those who are natural dictators and will use 1) and 2) to start their own little empires. The dictators will then spend years fighting each other for ultimate control.

It will take a long time for democracy to be restored. Even in modern times we are only ever a natural disaster or war away from community breakdown and then it's survival of the fittest. If the whole world broke down for more than a year then it's the Governor's and Tywin's who would rise up and take over. They don't lose sleep thinking about whether or not they should ditch the "weak" people to save food or slaughter the rival group to gain an advantage. They would also sacrifice their own people if necessary.

I've always been so fixated on surviving the zombies that I've never thought this far ahead before and I'm not painting a pretty picture for myself :eek:

Paddy Cow

ScumLord wrote: »

I think that after a few years life would be hell for those trying to cling onto some semblence of their old civilised ways, and those prepared to kill/steal to take what they want will rule through terror until someone worse comes along.

It could very well happen, but to be really good at oppressing people you need a civilization behind you with structure.

The last thing you need to oppress people is civilization. What you need is to keep the people downtrodden, uneducated and living in a constant state of fear, all under the illusion of civilization. Initially you offer them a safe haven and they are so grateful they feel like they owe you loyalty which makes them easy to manipulate. You have a band of merry mercenaries who are there to "protect" the people from the enemy and by the time they realise that the mercenaries are there to also control them, it's too late. They have become stuck in a rut with no power and no means of escape. It's either play by your rules or get killed.

degrassinoel

potential governor if ever there was one.. sheesh

Paddy Cow

degrassinoel wrote: »

potential governor if ever there was one.. sheesh

LOL I do sound like a bit of a psychopath in my post :pac:

AllthingsCP

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The last thing you need to oppress people is civilization. What you need is to keep the people downtrodden, uneducated and living in a constant state of fear, all under the illusion of civilization. Initially you offer them a safe haven and they are so grateful they feel like they owe you loyalty which makes them easy to manipulate. You have a band of merry mercenaries who are there to "protect" the people from the enemy and by the time they realise that the mercenaries are there to also control them, it's too late. They have become stuck in a rut with no power and no means of escape. It's either play by your rules or get killed.

Alright Gov, And whats to stop an over power hungry Merc kicking you out on your ass on the wrong side of the wall,

Paddy Cow

AllthingsCP wrote: »

Alright Gov, And whats to stop an over power hungry Merc kicking you out on your ass on the wrong side of the wall,

I already said that the power hungry will be busy trying to take over each other's camps. Whoever is willing to go the furthest will most likely succeed. Could you imagine Rick standing a chance against someone like Tywin? No way.

AllthingsCP

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I already said that the power hungry will be busy trying to take over each other's camps. Whoever is willing to go the furthest will most likely succeed. Could you imagine Rick standing a chance against someone like Tywin? No way.

I am talking about the power mad guy in your camp!

Paddy Cow

AllthingsCP wrote: »

I am talking about the power mad guy in your camp!

You flay him alive infront of everyone to show what happens to usurpers

ScumLord

Paddy Cow wrote: »

1 billion is not a realistic number of survivors. That would be a survival rate of 1 in 7. If you are caught in the middle of a large city (which the vast majority of the world's population would be), you are pretty much fcuked. If the zeds don't get you, disease, starvation, non infected people or packs of wild animals will more than likely finish you off.

It may be too high, I used that number because it was the stable human population pre industrialisation. I think it'll be very difficult for the virus to find every human population on the planet. In Europe it can spread through the major cities like wildfire but once it get's out into the countryside it will slow somewhat and it may never make it to some more remote parts of the world. Wild animals are rare enough in many parts of the world, they've also been developing a instinctive fear of humans for nearly 200,000 years, we won't be that vulnerable to predators. We contributed to a mass extinction event in the US after the last ice age using just stone tools.

If you are a child, disabled, elderly, pregnant or in anyway vulnerable, you're pretty much a goner. I think even a survival rate of 1 in 10,000 is being optimistic.

In major transport hub cities I'd agree with you.

it's more likely that I would end up in a Governor style dictatorship.

If we look down throughout history human society defaults to having a strong leader, especially in small groups. As the group gets bigger though there's a lot of pressure on the leader to take care of absolutely everything. When things go bad the leader is immediately at risk and the entire population has someone to turn on. The thing is we are civilized people, we don't really know how to be barbaric. Our automatic response isn't violence it's discussion.

It will take a long time for democracy to be restored. Even in modern times we are only ever a natural disaster or war away from community breakdown and then it's survival of the fittest.

We've had plenty of natural disasters and wars lately, if society broke down for those reasons we'd still be throwing stones at each other.

The problem is our historical record speaks volumes about wars but ignores the majority of the population that didn't fight and just wanted to be able to raise families in peace. That is the default state of humanity, peaceful coexistence is what the majority of people have done throughout history.

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The last thing you need to oppress people is civilization.

How do you manage large groups of people without civilization? You need to be able to keep records, organise armies on vast scales and have the ability to resupply them. If you're not a progressive civilization you also run the risk of one coming along and destroying you.

AllthingsCP

Paddy Cow wrote: »

You flay him alive infront of everyone to show what happens to usurpers

What happens if he had words with other members in the group and all together they outnumber you, You have no support from the plebs as such as you are a power mad tool and the plebs in your group want to try and improve their lives.

Its better to be just and fair and show traits that a world like that need stern when needed but also understanding, The ability to listing and lead and a tactical mind to overcome the challenges that will be facing you and your group sheer violence and terror will just lead to your downfall and more then likely your groups don't be a product of your environment

AllthingsCP

I could'n see us going back that far more like just re-populating and picking up the reins were we left off the majority of the world population nowadays are skilled at using modern equipment, And their is a good chance that some infrastructure would survive like dams and power plants it would need some repairing but at-least the base is their its not like we have to restart, The internet is suppose to survive a nuclear war so why not a virus, it would be a set back but if we overcame it i would'n say by much maybe a 2-3 generations.

ScumLord

AllthingsCP wrote: »

I could'n see us going back that far more like just re-populating and picking up the reins were we left off the majority of the world population nowadays are skilled at using modern equipment,

It's a good point. When comparing a modern collapse of society compared to the big historical one, the of the fall of the Roman empire. The general population is completely different now. In the Roman empire the majority of people were kept ignorant, what education there was, was restrict to an elite class. There is a much broader and diverse skillful base in the population today. Things that were secret in the past like metallurgy are now hobbies and pastimes that many people would have a vague knowledge of.

However much of our technological and industrial power comes from a global economy and transport network.

And their is a good chance that some infrastructure would survive like dams and power plants it would need some repairing but at-least the base is their its not like we have to restart,

These are very complex infrastructures though. There probably isn't one person that could tell you how to run a power plant. Plus the maintenance of these places probably require parts and speciality fluids that come from somewhere else in the world. We may be able to keep them going temporarily but unless the global economy returns I think large scale infrastructure like power plants (as we know them) would eventually fall into disrepair.

Kromdar

i was having a look through the power plants that we have. no diesel. i know a few remote places might have them, but anyway. the thinking of this is, on a small to medium scale [a small village] a diesel generator might have enough juice to keep everyone happy, if it runs off green diesel it might be adaptable for biofuels, and i can only imagine they're a bigger scale version of a car engine. surely that would be maintainable by any oul mechanic who's seen a car engine.

failing that, does anyone have any experience with those medium sized residential / farm wind turbines? ive seen a few on farms [dubliner, so not many; nor experience with them].

also for clarity, are we discussing the practicality of running a small commune, or the ethics of small versus large government here? just so i dont get too carried away with the technical end of things.

ScumLord

Kromdar wrote: »

i was having a look through the power plants that we have. no diesel. i know a few remote places might have them, but anyway. the thinking of this is, on a small to medium scale [a small village] a diesel generator might have enough juice to keep everyone happy, if it runs off green diesel it might be adaptable for biofuels, and i can only imagine they're a bigger scale version of a car engine. surely that would be maintainable by any oul mechanic who's seen a car engine.

You'll find very capable diesel generators attached to most factories. These would be large 3 phase generators capable of keeping a factory going so more than capable of generating enough power for a sizable community.

failing that, does anyone have any experience with those medium sized residential / farm wind turbines? ive seen a few on farms [dubliner, so not many; nor experience with them].

Wind has major drawbacks, the first one being the need for batteries when there is no wind. The technology has gotten better but you're still looking at replacing the battery every 5 years.

also for clarity, are we discussing the practicality of running a small commune, or the ethics of small versus large government here? just so i dont get too carried away with the technical end of things.

It all comes into play, I was more wondering what kind of community would we see after a zombie apocalypse. But discussing the practicalities would highlight what type of group would likely take over.

Grizzly 45

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm not sure but it's probably enough to wage an extended military operation. If they're not facing an actual army with a proper air force how many planes would they really need to send up? I do know that they constantly have planes in the air circling the ship at all times, so they must have a fair amount of fuel on board.

It would probably be in some sort of a fleet as well.

A few Carrier Battle Group facts.
A carrier battle group in itself is over 10 to 12 ships.Something like half or re supply,re provision,tankers etc. One Nuke class carrier has two atomic reactors,which are capable of powering both the carrier and literally a city the size of Dublin when both are switched on.The catering on a carrier can feed four thousand people three times a day with three different meals of choice.
On average there is a detachment of over 800 US Marines on the carrier alone in charge of policing,ship security,and raiding and ship boarding parties.You can double that number when they tool up the "squid bait"[Navy]
On board in the fleet amphibious vechicles for US Marine usage on onshore ops.Four dedicated MEDVAC/SAR helicopters as well.
Four sick bays of 100 hunderd beds with operating theaters designed to handle mass casaulties of all kinds .
A CBG can stay out on extended mission of 2.5 years if need be and roughing it.
Wont even go into the firepower it can put up in the air if need be,and the entire intregrated fleet defence run off the Aegis class cruisers.But short to say it is the most potent weapon in the US arsenal for either humanitarian missions or war if need be.Cost to run one CBG for a year over 10 billion USD.
They have six of them..!!!;)
In short I doubt very much that there will be much of a threat on the seas if a US CBG is still around.;).Nor will there be total collapse if a couple of these pull into Norflock and San Diego and plug back into the local US national grid.

Back to us lot here..when it does fall apart either by Z's or not.Ireland is pretty much going to revert to tribalism and clans.We dont do unity very well here in Ireland on any issues in peace time or on a national level for our benefits.What will it be like post WWZ??Historically Ireland was conqured this way by better disiplined and more aggressive troops and governance.So it would be possible for a disiplined force using the tactics of divide and conquer and kill them all and let God sort them out could retake this Island pretty easily.

Grizzly 45

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The last thing you need to oppress people is civilization. What you need is to keep the people downtrodden, uneducated and living in a constant state of fear, all under the illusion of civilization.

Err are we forgetting the last thousand years or so of the dominiation of the Church of the political landscape post the fall of Rome to almost the present day???The church was the keeper of the surviving knowledge of the vast Roman libaries,which Rome had plunderd from other civilisations. Being able to scare the bejaysus out of your pouplation with promises of eternal damnation and the reward of paradise helps as well.Add that to the military might of your local ruler and you have a very potent force.

Initially you offer them a safe haven and they are so grateful they feel like they owe you loyalty which makes them easy to manipulate.

But you have to continously grauntee that as well to the sheep ,before you can fleece them of their useable skills.

You have a band of merry mercenaries who are there to "protect" the people from the enemy and by the time they realise that the mercenaries are there to also control them, it's too late.

I think you are under the mis apprenhension of what Mercenaries are .They are trained professionals who will work for anyone paying their wages.They can just as easily turn and fight against the local warlord too if the opposition offers better wages or whatever.or they just decide the little kingdom is quite nice,so get rid of the slob running it and they take over themselves.
They are the most untrustworthy of men and were generally used historically in a specialist role or cannon fodder and dispensed with as quickly as possible post battle.About the only successful country to use Mercs and survive is the Vatican with its Swiss gaurd.:)

They have become stuck in a rut with no power and no means of escape. It's either play by your rules or get killed.

Unless you are going to build inward facing machine gun nests mine fields and fences ala the East German state,you are going to find it very difficult to keep your pouplation.Cant see how this could be done post WWZ.

TBH my take would be.There will be enough technology from the early 20th century and late 19th century available if it is studied to springboard back into the 21st century without all the social and pouplation problems of the late 20th and early 21st century.Ok,if we are using oil lamps rather than electric light for awhile or a horse drawn buggy,while we figure out how to get a stream train to run again,or a steam car or motorbike.And NO they wont and dont look like something out of the 19th century either.Think of a society where genuine equality of the sexes could exist.Man and woman will need to cooperate build and survive together without any artifical constraints of "gender or racial inequality." No massive EU directives massively micro managing our lives,or any banks trying to erke the last cent out of us either.
Its going to be rough on the Welfare class without the states tit to suck off.
No one will tolerate those kind of people.You will do something useful or die,simple as that.But you will have a plethora of useful jobs you could do anyway so there will be no constraints or reason not to do something useful with your life.

Grizzly 45

ScumLord wrote: »

It may be too high, I used that number because it was the stable human population pre industrialisation. I think it'll be very difficult for the virus to find every human population on the planet. In Europe it can spread through the major cities like wildfire but once it get's out into the countryside it will slow somewhat and it may never make it to some more remote parts of the world.

Er sorry to bust your bubble on that one.In the great flu pandemic of 1918,the Spanish flu,even with a world war happening was found in some of the remotest Eskimo tribes and primitive tribes in Africa!! This was at the time flying was a novelty still and the motor car was just starting out as well..
How quick could a modern pandemic spread with our global means of travel and interlinks these days??!918 it was months ,2013 it is a matter of days or hours.

We contributed to a mass extinction event in the US after the last ice age using just stone tools.

Curious...what was that???



If we look down throughout history human society defaults to having a strong leader, especially in small groups. As the group gets bigger though there's a lot of pressure on the leader to take care of absolutely everything. When things go bad the leader is immediately at risk and the entire population has someone to turn on.

The thing is we are civilized people, we don't really know how to be barbaric. Our automatic response isn't violence it's discussion.

Ahem...You have heard the expression civilisation is five meals away from Anarchy??You dont have to look far to see this in action..The LA riots,Hurricane Katrina,London two years ago,Syria,Libya,the Yougoslav conflict.

We've had plenty of natural disasters and wars lately, if society broke down for those reasons we'd still be throwing stones at each other

.

It doesnt even need societal breakdown either.

The problem is our historical record speaks volumes about wars but ignores the majority of the population that didn't fight and just wanted to be able to raise families in peace. That is the default state of humanity, peaceful coexistence is what the majority of people have done throughout history

.

Put it better ...We ASPIRE to peaceful co existance.
Unfortuneatly our leaders and rulers need to involve us to hate our enemies for whatever reasons,otherwise they wouldnt have us providing their armies,their foodstuffs and raw materials to feed and equip their armies.

How do you manage large groups of people without civilization? You need to be able to keep records, organise armies on vast scales and have the ability to resupply them. If you're not a progressive civilization you also run the risk of one coming along and destroying you.

The Romans who were sacked by the "barbaric" Goths and Vandals might disagree on that point.:)
It depends on what kind of civilisation you have.Is it a bright vibrant disiplined productive innovative society as Rome was in its peak.Or is it Rome where debauchery,corruption,cronyism,battles for scarce resources months away from Rome are happening and your pouplation is kept in check with bread and circuses but are stripping the treasury and resources at home...BUT the aqeducts still work,the Senate still sits,the day to day life of the progressive civilisation still goes on..But it is still doomed because of internal and external pressures of keeping that progressive civilisation going.