Discussion thread for those who've read all the books?

December2012

Is there one?

I have a few questions but not important enough to start / grow threads by themselves.

Shazbot

There's been a few threads in the past where people has discussed various aspects of the books rather than the entire series as a whole.

Go ahead and ask questions though and we can get a bit of discussion going.

thegreatiam

inski

Edit the thread title to say *Spoilers* and we're golden

Until then

How do we think Jon is coming back to life? :P

beardedmaster

@Liam O -

my guess is that he's gonna warg around in Ghost for a while, then Melisandre is gonna do a Thoros-of-Myr trick in resurrecting him. The warging-before-dying is mentioned a number of times beforehand, so is known to be a "done thing." Melisandre's resurrection of him was kind of foreshadowed this season by her interest in how Thoros managed it. However, the fact that he has "died", I feel, will also relinquish his vows to the Night's Watch - "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death" - emphasis on the last two words.
Therefore, as he's had his "death", he's free to go gallivanting off to wherever he needs, before the big showdown with the Others, which I feel Dany and/or Bran will be involved.

Also, there's another theory where Robb has named Jon his heir as King of the North, as he believed Bran and Rickon to be dead. Being a king, Robb is free to legitimatise bastards as he feels, so he could have easily made it to be Jon. A king legitimising bastards on a deathbed/in a will is also done by GRRM (Aegon IV), so it could come up again.

Tbh I'd feel a bit let down if Jon and Ramsay didn't have some kind of direct contact. The fact that Ramsay is the legitimate bastard is something that really galls me even though I'm aware of how the perception of Martin is that nobody is safe, I feel that it's more that he misdirects who the true heroes of the story are.

Paddy Cow

Liam O wrote: »

Tbh I'd feel a bit let down if Jon and Ramsay didn't have some kind of direct contact. The fact that Ramsay is the legitimate bastard is something that really galls me even though I'm aware of how the perception of Martin is that nobody is safe, I feel that it's more that he misdirects who the true heroes of the story are.

Is Ramsay legitimate? I thought that Roose was only using him to do his dirty work and has no intention of letting him inherit everything as he knows that Ramsay is just a sadistic monster who would ruin everything.

beardedmaster

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Is Ramsay legitimate? I thought that Roose was only using him to do his dirty work and has no intention of letting him inherit everything as he knows that Ramsay is just a sadistic monster who would ruin everything.

Ramsay was legitimised by Joffrey/Tommen (can't remember who), in reward for Roose's part in the RW. Roose had originally Ramsay as his heir, but now he's gotten his "fat little wife" (Fat Walda Frey) pregnant, so that child is will now be the heir. Roose says that Ramsay will more than likely try to kill the child, as Ramsay hates young heirs (considers them weak), but Roose says it doesn't matter as Ramsay himself will more than likely die soon enough anyway.

I do think Ramsay and Jon will have contact, hence why I said Jon will be able to go off and do his own thing for a bit before the White Walkers are properly upon them. I doubt it'll be by Jon's hand, but I can see Ramsay dying, painfully/brutally, and soon.

Gbear

There's also another possibility - it's always perilous to assume a character dies unless you're damn well sure in this series. I think there's some chance that he'll be saved and not reanimated - it'd probably involve some mixture of Ghost, the Wall and Melisandre.

We were told that he was stabbed but not in the heart or through the eye or anything. Could definitely be fatal but it's not guaranteed to be.

beardedmaster

Gbear wrote: »

We were told that he was stabbed but not in the heart or through the eye or anything. Could definitely be fatal but it's not guaranteed to be.

A single stab, perhaps. But Jon was stabbed repeatedly, Caesar-style.

Paddy Cow

Gbear wrote: »

There's also another possibility - it's always perilous to assume a character dies unless you're damn well sure in this series. I think there's some chance that he'll be saved and not reanimated - it'd probably involve some mixture of Ghost, the Wall and Melisandre.

We were told that he was stabbed but not in the heart or through the eye or anything. Could definitely be fatal but it's not guaranteed to be.

It makes more sense to kill him as that would free him from the Night's Watch. He has a more important role to play in the battle of Westeros. It is implied that Robb has named him as his heir and that he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna which would put him ahead of Dany in the claim to the Iron Throne.

It would be a waste to leave him in the Night's Watch. Stannis would make a better Lord Commander of the Night's Watch than he would a King of the Seven Kingdoms. Let him deal with the white walkers. I think Jon Snow would be a leader like Tyrion - someone who never expected to get real power but actually used their power to better the realm, rather than themselves.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

anybody who hasn't read the books and is stupid enough to click into a thread saying "discussion thread for those who're read all the books" deserves what they get. there's no need to spoiler every post.

username123

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

anybody who hasn't read the books and is stupid enough to click into a thread saying "discussion thread for those who're read all the books" deserves what they get. there's no need to spoiler every post.

+1

Is anyone actually bothered reading these posts with all the spoiler tags? Im on an ipad and you cant see under the spoiler tags without quoting a post as though you are going to reply to it - its just too long and involved to go doing it to read each one!

December2012

Do you think that Samwell Tarly and Randyll Tarly will cross paths and what do you think will happen?

I have a feeling *if* they meet that the meeting might send Samwell on a backward spiral confidence wise, which would be a shame, because I like how Sam has progressed.

December2012

Gbear wrote: »

There's also another possibility - it's always perilous to assume a character dies unless you're damn well sure in this series. I think there's some chance that he'll be saved and not reanimated - it'd probably involve some mixture of Ghost, the Wall and Melisandre.

We were told that he was stabbed but not in the heart or through the eye or anything. Could definitely be fatal but it's not guaranteed to be.

That's what I was thinking - that her be out of action for a while like Ser Loras and therefore unable to attack Bolton.

Gbear

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It makes more sense to kill him as that would free him from the Night's Watch. He has a more important role to play in the battle of Westeros. It is implied that Robb has named him as his heir and that he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna which would put him ahead of Dany in the claim to the Iron Throne.

It would be a waste to leave him in the Night's Watch. Stannis would make a better Lord Commander of the Night's Watch than he would a King of the Seven Kingdoms. Let him deal with the white walkers. I think Jon Snow would be a leader like Tyrion - someone who never expected to get real power but actually used their power to better the realm, rather than themselves.

I'm going to stop using spoilers now.

He'd still be behind Aegon though (if he's real). Even if he isn't he'd have the Golden Company and possibly Dorne on his side, as well as Varys and contacts in the free cities. Jon has the testimony of Howland Reed (maybe) and maybe Ashara Dayne (if she's the Septa with Aegon).

On how his death affects his vows - we don't know what happens to the reanimated corpses like Cat and Beric in the long term. They haven't established whether he'd be able to have kids or any of that sort of thing.

I really want to see what's up with Howland Reed. Why was he sitting on his arse for the whole of the war? I don't even remember it being brought up much in the books. It was like it was just accepted that the Reeds weren't there.

Son0vagun

So far this thread is a joy to read on my mobile.

Surely no non book reader will bother coming in here.

beardedmaster

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It is implied that Robb has named him as his heir and that he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna which would put him ahead of Dany in the claim to the Iron Throne.

He would only be an heir if Rhaegar and Lyanna had married, which isn't known if it happened or not. Of course, if they had, being the polygamists the Targaryens are, Jon would be legit. Again, that's only if Aegon VI isn't legit himself, why I don't leave to be the case at all. My argument for this is here.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

anybody who hasn't read the books and is stupid enough to click into a thread saying "discussion thread for those who're read all the books" deserves what they get. there's no need to spoiler every post.

The thread title ends with a question mark, so I don't really agree with you there. However, other people have stopped with the spoiler tags, so there's no point in my continuing my posts with them! I suggest that the thread title be changed though.

Maybe change it to Winds of Winter build up thread or something.

What I want to see is Roose Bolton dying and Ramsay becoming the heir. What was said above about the new heir being the child of fat Walda, would that be real? Now that Ramsay is legitimate would he not be top of the list regardless?

Jon's past to be sorted out this book, leaving the final book to deal with the fight for the throne.

Dany to stop faffing about in Essos and make the move west.

Aegon to get killed on his attack of Storm's End, he seems to have been shoehorned in there and don't really feel a connection to him.

Euron Greyjoy to get killed, an annoying character and feel a much better connection to Victarion.

What age will Rickon be? He should be about 10 at least now surely? I wonder how his temper and feral personality will have developed, especially since he was supposed to have gone to Skagos apparently? What happened to going to the Umbers?

Theon and Asha being with Stannis is another thing of interest too, how will Stannis' weakened host fare in a battle with the Boltons?

Paddy Cow

Liam O wrote: »

What age will Rickon be? He should be about 10 at least now surely? I wonder how his temper and feral personality will have developed, especially since he was supposed to have gone to Skagos apparently? What happened to going to the Umbers?

Rickon was 6 I think when the tv show started so he should be about 7 or 8 now. He certainly doesn't seem to have a temper. The most feral of the Stark children is Arya. She definitely didn't inherit Ned's honour and is the most likely to survive because of this.

Paddy Cow

Gbear wrote: »

He'd still be behind Aegon though (if he's real). Even if he isn't he'd have the Golden Company and possibly Dorne on his side, as well as Varys and contacts in the free cities. Jon has the testimony of Howland Reed (maybe) and maybe Ashara Dayne (if she's the Septa with Aegon).

beardedmaster wrote: »

He would only be an heir if Rhaegar and Lyanna had married, which isn't known if it happened or not. Of course, if they had, being the polygamists the Targaryens are, Jon would be legit. Again, that's only if Aegon VI isn't legit himself, why I don't leave to be the case at all. My argument for this is here.

Ya I can see how he would have problems if he tried to claim the throne but I still think if it does turn out that his parents are Rhaeger and Lyanna then he would be wasted in the Night's Watch. He is also a warg and would be able to control the dragons. It will be interesting to see if he becomes a friend or enemy to Dany. Their paths surely have to cross later on. If Jon is the Ice and Dany is the Fire, do they try to help or destroy each other?

Paddy Cow

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Rickon was 6 I think when the tv show started so he should be about 7 or 8 now. He certainly doesn't seem to have a temper. The most feral of the Stark children is Arya. She definitely didn't inherit Ned's honour and is the most likely to survive because of this.

TV ages are different to book ages, a lot of years have passed in the books, the start of the 2nd book is the start of Autumn and the end of the 5th book is the start of Winter, seasons last 6 or 7 years in this universe as far as I know though wiki says it was 2 or 3 years which I'm not sure makes sense with all the character movements and amount of battles but there you go.

Witcher

War of the Five Kings began in 298AL and Joffrey was married on the first day of 300AL, only 2 or 2 1/2 years have elapsed in the book timeline.

Paddy Cow

Liam O wrote: »

TV ages are different to book ages, a lot of years have passed in the books, the start of the 2nd book is the start of Autumn and the end of the 5th book is the start of Winter, seasons last 6 or 7 years in this universe as far as I know though wiki says it was 2 or 3 years which I'm not sure makes sense with all the character movements and amount of battles but there you go.

In the books the Starks were aged:

Jon/Robb - 14
Sansa - 11
Arya - 9
Bran - 6
Rickon - 4

Jon and Robb were 16 when they became Lord Commander and King in the North.

In the show their ages are:
Jon/Rob - I don't know. They look to be in their twenties but I can't remember if their ages are mentioned
Sansa - 14 when marrying Tyrion so would've been 12 at the start
Arya - 11
Bran - 10
Rickon - 6

I'm not fully sure of their ages in the show so am open to correction.

Is Dany's age mentioned in the show? In the books she was only 13 but she looks way older in the show. No way could they have left her at that age for tv and shown Drogo going at her :eek: Even if they used an older actress who looked young, it would've been too much for viewers.

Mr.Prodston

Rickon was 3 at the start of the first book. I started reading the first few chapters again and I distinctly remember Cat saying he was 3 to Ned. So my maths tells me if 2.5/3 years have passed he is 5.5 or 6 at this stage :pac:

Am I the only one that thinks the Lannisters may prevail? I just think its geared towards Jamie being the hero believe it or not. There has been too much effort in the books so far to show how much he has changed, and up until TWOW he is a very likeable character compared to him probably being one of the most hated at the end of book 1.

I think he will end up killing Cersei himself at one point for how she has manipulated him his whole life.

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks the Lannisters may prevail? I just think its geared towards Jamie being the hero believe it or not. There has been too much effort in the books so far to show how much he has changed, and up until TWOW he is a very likeable character compared to him probably being one of the most hated at the end of book 1.

I think he will end up killing Cersei himself at one point for how she has manipulated him his whole life.

I can't see how the Lannisters prevail. By the end of season 3 on the tv show it seems like they are unstoppable. Joffrey sits on the throne but the Seven Kingdoms are ruled by Tywin who everyone fears. They have aligned themselves with the Tyrells who seem to be the only ones who have gathered a big harvest and have a supply of food to last the winter, as well as being a strong house in general. They have secured their position in the north by making Roose Bolton steward of the north until Sansa and Tyrion's child becomes of age and the Freys are in their pocket, giving them complete access to the Twins. They have defeated three of the "false" kings and seem very secure in their position as the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms.

After the Purple Wedding it all turns to sh!t. Jamie is no longer infatuated with Cersei and goes off on a crusade with no interest in retaining house Lannister as a powerhouse in the way Tywin was. The monster that is Joffrey dies, leaving the weaker Tommen on the throne to be manipulated by the Tyrells. Tywin gets killed by his own son who flees Kings Landing with only vengence in his heart (and everyone convinced that he killed Joffrey). Cersei still thinks she is Tywin with boobs and her stupidy sees her humiliated and losing all respect/fear in front of all of Kings Landing. The only Lannister (Kevin) who might have been able to rule gets murdered by Varys.

The power of the Lannisters lay and died with Tywin. He was the mastermind behind their succes and his one major fcuk up was not preparing an heir to take over after him. His hatred of Tyrion was his downfall. His sister told him that Tyrion and not Jamie was his son. Jamie is a great warrior but Tyrion has the mind to defeat enemies but Tywin was blinded by hatred to this fact.

When he died, Tywin left behing three children who hate and want to destroy each other. Rot starts from within. All the fear and respect that Tywin built up in his enemies died with him. People have tolerated Cersei because of who she is, hated Tyrion because of who he is and stopped fearing Jamie when he lost his hand. They majorly p!ssed off the north be beheading Ned and slaughtering Robb and Catelyn. The Tyrells are opportunists and will totally screw over the Lannisters given the chance.

The Lannisters suffer a massive downfall and I don't see how they can recover. I can see Jamie and Tyrion redeeming themselves on a personal level but I can't see how their house will ever recover. Varys, while not a main character, does a lot of work in the background and told Kevin that he doesn't think Tommen is worthy of the throne. He has done a lot of work behind the scenes to get the Targaryens back on the throne and I wouldn't discount his influnence. Varys seems to be the only person throughout the whole saga that is more concerned with the safety of the relam, rather than personal glory and he will sabotage the Lannisters to achieve this.

TL:DR While Jamie and Tyrion might achive personal glory, no way can house Lannister prevail by the end of the war.

Brian?

Liam O wrote: »

Aegon to get killed on his attack of Storm's End, he seems to have been shoehorned in there and don't really feel a connection to him.

I doubt that.

My theory is that Dany has 3 Dragons, she needs 2 other Targaryens to ride them; Jon and Aegon will do nicely.

Melisandre brings Jon back to life in this scenario obviously.

Dragon glass kills white walkers, fire kills white walkers ergo dragons descimate white walkers. Simples.

Gbear

Paddy Cow wrote: »

TL:DR While Jamie and Tyrion might achive personal glory, no way can house Lannister prevail by the end of the war.

Tyrion could be given Casterly Rock for serving Dany. So the Lannisters would endure, to a degree at least.

Witcher

Brian? wrote: »

I doubt that.

My theory is that Dany has 3 Dragons, she needs 2 other Targaryens to ride them; Jon and Aegon will do nicely.

Melisandre brings Jon back to life in this scenario obviously.

Dragon glass kills white walkers, fire kills white walkers ergo dragons descimate white walkers. Simples.

Too much of a 'happy Targaryens together' ending. Can't see Dany ever making it to Westeros, her army is too big to survive the coming winter and that situation only sets up another Dance of the Dragons scenario.

Gbear wrote: »

Tyrion could be given Casterly Rock for serving Dany. So the Lannisters would endure, to a degree at least.

Wouldn't be a good idea for her to align herself with someone that's a known kinslayer and an admitted kingslayer albeit incorrectly.

Brian?

Blay wrote: »

Too much of a 'happy Targaryens together' ending. Can't see Dany ever making it to Westeros, her army is too big to survive the coming winter and that situation only sets up another Dance of Dragons scenario

I can't see any other ending. The whole series is building towards a confrontation between fire and ice. It is called "A Song of Fire and Ice" after all.

On one side we have The Others and opposing them there's who? The dragons were brought back for a reason, it seems obvious to me it was to fight the Others, i.e. be the fire.