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Is the selection process for the Lions tour captain flawed?

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    #32
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    trouttrout wrote: »
    Since 2011 what games has he been super for Wales in? I really don't think it's got anything to do with sour grapes, if AWJ was given the captaincy no one would be complaining

    Indeed. He was truly world class in 2011 but he's only found his top form in fits and starts since that.

    Wales won the 6 Nations back to back but he wasn't exactly ever present. In 2012 for example he only started against us (where he was subbbed at half-time and Tipuric played a blinder in his absence), England (where he was outstanding and MOTM) and the final game v France (where he was again subbed at half-time). He missed the Scottish and Italian games completely.

    Again in 2013 he missed the French game completely and played 10 minutes of the Italian game. He was superb in the last 2 games in fairness to him.

    He has had excellent periods since 2011, but he has had his fair share of mediocre appearances too. He has missed a huge amount through injury, and although he was captain he was far from integral to Wales' achievements over the last 2 years. I've tried not to go into too many rants about the Warburton captaincy thing but the whole decision just baffles me.


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    #33
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    In terms of the selection of tour captain, I don't think the April selection date is flawed. Going on tour without a tour captain would look so much worse than going with an injured one. If the guy does get injured and has to go home, then by all means select a replacement, but it's no different than having a club captain and an on field replacement when he's not available.

    However I suspect that the thread title should really read "Is Sam Warburton a good choice of tour captain?" since that seems to be what most people are discussing here.


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    #34
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,589 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    .ak wrote: »
    Why sour grapes?

    most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

    also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here


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    #35
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    thebaz wrote: »
    most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

    also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

    The last world cup was in 2011. That form is meaningless in terms of who should be picked as captain for a tour in 2013


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    #36
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    rrpc wrote: »
    In terms of the selection of tour captain, I don't think the April selection date is flawed. Going on tour without a tour captain would look so much worse than going with an injured one. If the guy does get injured and has to go home, then by all means select a replacement, but it's no different than having a club captain and an on field replacement when he's not available.

    However I suspect that the thread title should really read "Is Sam Warburton a good choice of tour captain?" since that seems to be what most people are discussing here.

    But that's because it's the current tour..... I think the point being that how about if a person's form on tour is overshadowed by all others in his position, should he still start?


    Although, in this instance, I don't think Warburton's form in April was good enough to start either, Tipuric was playing better than him then too.


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    #37
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    thebaz wrote: »
    most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

    also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

    Really? I don't think anyone has actually said they don't like Warb as a captain. I think you're generalizing a lot of posters here. Most people actually like him, as a player and as a captain, but lets be realistic, in the past 12 months he's been missing from rugby - he hasn't imposed himself at the Blues and in any games for Wales he's been mediocre at best.

    Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm sympathetic to the chap, but at the end of the day this is test rugby, a series of 3 games that only rolls around every 4 years, sympathy has no place here.


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    #38
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,168 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    decisions wrote: »
    If you replace Sam with an Irish player nobody would have any problem with them being captain, even if they weren't playing well.

    it has nothing to do with him being welsh. There were questions of BOD and POC coming into the tour and both stepped up to the plate. Warburton has not simple as. He should not be on the tour.


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    #39
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    twinytwo wrote: »
    ... He should not be on the tour.

    I wouldn't go this far.

    The argument I have is that he shouldn't be guaranteed his test team place by reason hes captain, nor has his form been good enough to earn a test spot in comparison to his compatriots.


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    #40
    schools rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭schools rugby


    Before the world cup Warburton wasnt exactly well known in the rugby world and he stepped up , there is a fine chance he may step up again for the tests matches .....

    However Tipuric is the inform 7 atm


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    #41
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,168 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    thebaz wrote: »
    most people would obviously have preferred BOD or POC to be captain .

    also i remember last WC when I thought he was outstanding , he was getting a hard time from some here

    what has the last world cup have to do with the present?


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    #42
    schools rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭schools rugby


    Heres a dilemma which worries me if Warburton gets dropped .

    Warburton gets dropped for Tipuric for the first test , Tipuric gets injured and is ruled out for the series while POC was captain for the first test .

    Now Warburton having been dropped is low on confidence and in bad form comes in for the second test to replace Tipuric.

    Now there is more debate as regards the captaincy issue and its left in the air who captains the second test


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    #43
    parttime77
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭parttime77


    It was likely the 1/4 final display against Hquinns that sealed the deal for POC selection, it showed how important a role he has plays to bring other players up to the next level , which can be priceless at this level .


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    #44
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    parttime77 wrote: »
    It was likely the 1/4 final display against Hquinns that sealed the deal for POC selection, it showed how important a role he has plays to bring other players up to the next level , which can be priceless at this level .

    Exactly.
    Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

    AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
    Gray v Babas, super performance,


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    #45
    petebricquette
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭petebricquette


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Exactly.
    Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

    AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
    Gray v Babas, super performance,

    Kind of like the BOD effect: The BOD/Roberts partnership was huge for the 2009 series but Roberts never quite got to that level again. Tuilagi has one of his best games ever in terms of distribution/unselfishness just this series with BOD outside him.

    POC=BOD of the second row.


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    #46
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,589 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    twinytwo wrote: »
    what has the last world cup have to do with the present?

    just, that I remember defending back then against, what I fealt was unfair criticism - and a few years later people are questioning is he good eneogh for the lions - I don't personally know him, but think he a superb rugby player. Thats my opinion, if others differ - its a free country.


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    #47
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    thebaz wrote: »
    just, that I remember defending back then against, what I fealt was unfair criticism - and a few years later people are questioning is he good eneogh for the lions - I don't personally know him, but think he a superb rugby player. Thats my opinion, if others differ - its a free country.

    I agree, looking at his ratings the last day across several papers and he scored an 8.

    POC has been hugely impressed with him as captain.


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    #48
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I agree, looking at his ratings the last day across several papers and he scored an 8.

    POC has been hugely impressed with him as captain.

    What do you expect him to say?

    Though this comment could be considered as a criticism when he talks about quiet dressing rooms and players trying to do well individually (rather than as a team?)
    "The dressing-room is a lot quieter than on previous tours. There isn't a hell of a lot of talk coming up to games. There is no bravado or talk.
    "There is savage competition for places, and guys are very eager to play as well as they can individually.

    http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0617/457083-oconnell/


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    #49
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    jm08 wrote: »
    What do you expect him to say?

    Though this comment could be considered as a criticism when he talks about quiet dressing rooms and players trying to do well individually (rather than as a team?)



    http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2013/0617/457083-oconnell/[/QUOTE]

    I wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly of him for starters.
    I wouldn't interpret that as criticism...it is an interesting read though.


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    #50
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Exactly.
    Look at all the players who've played beside POC.

    AWJ the last day, 1 of his best games ever.
    Gray v Babas, super performance,

    Superb? What game were you watching, he was ok to decent, certainly not superb

    And I doubt his performance had much to do with POC's leadership anyway


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    #51
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Gray has been poor to mediocre, pushing average at times.

    He's got to be last on the list at the moment surely? I'd much prefer Evans or Parling on the bench.


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    #52
    trouttrout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,234 ✭✭✭trouttrout


    Rightwing wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect him to speak glowingly of him for starters.
    I wouldn't interpret that as criticism...it is an interesting read though.

    You realise journalists ask him about Warburton? And that's beside the point, it's not his leadership being questioned, it's his place in the test side that makes him unsuitable for captain


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    #53
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

    I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

    I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.


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    #54
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

    I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

    I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

    The same was said of Farrell after he played poorly in the first game and was vilified in the first thread. Hardly been a whimper outside the seagulls since


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    #55
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    schools rugby wrote: »
    Heres a dilemma which worries me if Warburton gets dropped .

    Warburton gets dropped for Tipuric for the first test , Tipuric gets injured and is ruled out for the series while POC was captain for the first test .

    Now Warburton having been dropped is low on confidence and in bad form comes in for the second test to replace Tipuric.

    Now there is more debate as regards the captaincy issue and its left in the air who captains the second test

    No dilemma at all, SOB is the 2nd best openside after Tipuric. If Tip got injured you could just play SOB.


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    #56
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

    I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

    I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

    I get where you're coming from, but it's harsh to brandish all the posters with one brush. There's plenty of valid criticism coming from people here, including myself, that are actually big fans of Warb.

    I for one wouldn't be saying anything if it wasn't for the fact that Tipuric, imo one of the form 7s in the NH, may not make the test 23 because Warburton, who is clearly not in form, may take his place.

    These tests roll around every 4 years, and there's only 3 games, so you really want to see the guys who's put their all into their performances to be picked on merit and not reputation/captaincy/whatever.

    And ofcourse there's a flipside to this, the Sky hyperbole of him. Propaganda like this is hardly going to inspire the fans... Do they think we're mugs?


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    #57
    19543261
    Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    Whats the consensus on Warburton from the Welsh fans? Anyone done some lurking on their forums?


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    #58
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,096 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.
    .

    would you admit that the half time montage of him ' being' on the pitch was embarrasing to the point of hilarity?

    he was better in the second half, but unremarkably so.


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    #59
    Webbs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭Webbs


    19543261 wrote: »
    Whats the consensus on Warburton from the Welsh fans? Anyone done some lurking on their forums?

    concensus is that he is playing well, though not on top form, they have no issue with him (obviously) being chosen to play in first test.
    They are worried that the alternatives sit off the breakdown more and so could hand a big advantage to the Aus if Warburton isnt there to help secure ball or slow ball down.
    If Faletau is playing then there is a case for Warburton not playing due to faletaus work at breakdown freeing up others, if Heaslip is playing then Warburton has to start

    The Welsh at the moment like their flanker to follow the ball, not be a first or second receiver and be big ball carriers, seems to be the biggest difference in opinions here and on Welsh forums etc.


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    #60
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

    I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

    I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

    I think what provoked that reaction was the over-the-top hype from the Sky pundits at half-time and after the game. Maybe you didn't see it if you weren't watching it live but it was embarrassing for all concerned. Warburton was OK but they were ascribing all sorts of heroic deeds to him that just didn't happen. Is that not as bad or worse then over-emphasis on his mistakes?

    In-match threads are always a bit ridiculous. If you're looking for calm, balanced analysis, stay off boards until the day after, that's what I usually do, particularly during Ireland matches and interprovincials.


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    #61
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,168 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    What makes the Warburton discussion irrelevant is that even if he plays exceptionally, few will admit it.

    I had to watch the game late and I read that match thread afterwards. It was just a collection of people sitting around in wait for him to make a mistake. Just like the early days of Sexton or Murray's Ireland careers... or any time Paddy Wallace played!

    I really hope the Lions match thread isn't like that. If it is there's no way I'm sticking around for it.

    Id have no problem if he was playing well, but he is not. As tour captain he is expected to play well.

    As for people waiting for him to make a mistake.. the way gatty and sky blow smoke up his arse even though he his doing nothing.


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