Rathmore

cfuserkildare

Hi Folks,

Just a quick observation here,

I was up at the Motte in Rathmore, Co. Kildare, went into the churchyard next door and found that a burial mound seems to have been either excavated and left open, or it has been robbed.

The mound is about 15 feet long by maybe 8 feet across and the excavation is about half way along it, 3 feet wide at an angle of maybe 5-10 degrees, going 4 feet down and leaving bones exposed.

First thought was that somebody had tried to remove a large stone from the mound, but then we began to notice bones protruding from the sides, oddly enough the first bones are only a foot from the surface.


Who should this be reported to?

Cheers.

slowburner

Report it to the local Gardaí and the duty officer of the National Museum at 01 6777444.

dr gonzo

Seriously, what the f*** is going on at the moment in this country with heritage theft and destruction...?!

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

Did you take any photos by any chance?

cfuserkildare

Hi KnapperHandy,

I did take a few pics but was raining hard and was only using the lightweight camera so need to check out the images properly later.
Reported to Gardai but still cannot get through to the Duty Officer at
the National Museum.

Will wait and see what happens.

Cheers.

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

No problem!

I think the national museum is closed on Mondays anyway,so I'd give them a shout in the morning.

All the best.

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

I am not sure whether the pics can go up before any investigations are completed since technically it is a crime scene.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

slowburner

Photos are frequently published of site damage. Sometimes it is the only way that the problem can receive the recognition it deserves.
Feel free to post up the pics.

cfuserkildare

Here are a few of those pics,

Hope they load as they wouldn't earlier.

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

Thanks for the pics!

My guess is that another large slab,like the one we see in the picture,has been removed.It may have been removed quite a while ago,because you can see some moss growing on the bare soil(moss tends to be slow growing).

Just my opinion,but let's see what others think.

cfuserkildare

Kinda thought the same regarding the moss, but the stone is a bit of a strange one.
Its sort of shaped a little like a stylised dagger or sword and is about 10" thick.
Not slab like at all.

But seeing it in the flesh is very different from photos.

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Kinda thought the same regarding the moss, but the stone is a bit of a strange one.
Its sort of shaped a little like a stylised dagger or sword and is about 10" thick.
Not slab like at all.

But seeing it in the flesh is very different from photos.

Cheers.

The stone is a crudely shaped medieval cross.
Only the cruciform section would have protruded above ground.
The grave marker probably dates from the C12th or C13th, possibly a little earlier.

cfuserkildare

Hey SlowBurner,

I think I read something like that regarding the stone.

All this because I was looking for the Earthworks at Arthurstown!

Still better to find this than nothing at all.

I would say the mound was dug out perhaps 6 months ago at a guess, since the grass was rather sparce but the moss was fairly well established.

Any ideas on what the official procedure is now?

slowburner

I have passed the information on to the National Monuments service.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Cheers for doing that SlowBurner.

Its a pity that people do things like this.

Also, just while I am here,

Does anybody have an approximate age for the Mound?
The reference I found on Excavations.ie says that the Normans re-used it, therefor it was there pre-1170.

The burial intrigued me as I do not remember the Normans burying there dead underneath any buildings they were using.

robp

Its is amazingly regular for a typical treasure hunter.

cfuserkildare

I thought that myself, but no-one on an official dig would leave an excavation open like that, especially when you consider that its been left open for a while.

Also we couldn't find where the dug out earth had been deposited.

The cutting shows the strata of the mound quite well, each level has been covered by a layer of slate and each level would be 10-12" deep.

But being left open like that makes no sense to me.

slowburner

This all seems a bit peculiar.
I'll let you know the result of the NMS site visit as soon as possible.

cfuserkildare

Hi,

Not sure what the normal procedure or timescale for any investigation, but I was up at the site again and there is no visible attempt to cover / protect the "Barrow".

Don't mean to be making trouble but surely the Gardai at least would have secured the scene?

KnapperHandy

Hi cfuserkildare,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the Gardaí to do anything(and I generally don't like slagging them off because they've enough to do as it is).

I wouldn't panic just yet!The NMS are generally on the ball in these situations,and I'm sure they'll take care of the problem sooner rather than later.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hi,

Not sure what the normal procedure or timescale for any investigation, but I was up at the site again and there is no visible attempt to cover / protect the "Barrow".

Don't mean to be making trouble but surely the Gardai at least would have secured the scene?

I understand your frustration but I doubt the Gardai are treating this as they would the scene of a serious crime.
If they were to secure the scene they would also be highlighting the place and then it would require 24 hour surveillance - and that ain't gonna happen.
The damage is done and the perpetrators long gone. Sadly, every single national monument is extremely vulnerable and this is why we need local vigilence.
I'm a bit surprised that nobody else reported this damage. It seems to have occurred some time ago.

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

Finally the Gardai looked at it last night.

Was up again and found that there are bones on the opposite side from where the pics are taken, looked like a foot or maybe a hand that has been amongst the dug-out soil simply dumped on the far side of the mound.

Really needs properly investigating, but I know the Gardai do not have the spare staff to do it.

Still, we will wait and see what happens.

KnapperHandy

I take back my earlier comments about the Gardaí - fair play to them!:o

cfuserkildare

Was looking at the pictures of the Stone and think it may be more than a simple marker stone,

It may be an effigy instead of a simple cross.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Was looking at the pictures of the Stone and think it may be more than a simple marker stone,

It may be an effigy instead of a simple cross.

Any opinions?

Cheers.

I don't think it is anything more than a simple early Christian cross - based on the photos.
Only a small portion would have been above ground.
The original level - or the level intended to be above ground when it was first erected - is marked by the lower orange line in this photo and the second line may indicate the level that protruded above ground at the time of its unearthing.

robp

slowburner wrote: »

I don't think it is anything more than a simple early Christian cross - based on the photos.
Only a small portion would have been above ground.
The original level - or the level intended to be above ground when it was first erected - is marked by the lower orange line in this photo and the second line may indicate the level that protruded above ground at the time of its unearthing.

I wonder if the culprit could have been digging for human remains. Not as outlandish as it may sound.

cfuserkildare

Hi Robp,

When I was up there yesterday, I noticed that there were bones just strewn amongst the grass on the side away from where the pics are taken. Looked like a foot to me. Also saw what is probably a part of a skull.
If it were somebody trophy hunting, surely they wouldn't have left so much behind.
Also wonder why the groundskeeper didn't report anything?

Also I am not so sure about it being a simple cross, it is too heavily constructed, deeper than it is broad, and a cross would surely be higher the what we see here?

slowburner

robp wrote: »

I wonder if the culprit could have been digging for human remains. Not as outlandish as it may sound.

You say outlandish, I say ghoulish.
Why would anyone want bones?

cfuserkildare

There are some sick people out there.

Look at the traditions of drying and displaying the bones of ancestors all over the world.

Pretty Gruesome.

robp

slowburner wrote: »

You say outlandish, I say ghoulish.
Why would anyone want bones?

Maybe just for the novelty of it or those who are into the Gothic aesthetic. Although archaeological bone isn't quite like the skeletons in the movies.
I am really thinking out loud. I am sure plenty of people are into that kind of thing but I can't imagine many would actually desecrate a grave for it.

slowburner

It will be very interesting to hear the opinions of the various investigators.