Irish hypocrisy on the illegal immigration issue

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wow an immigration thread started by Norfolk Enchants!well i never......

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

My argument is that each country should be responsible for it's own population.

I haven't lived in the UK for 20+ years, what are they gonna do? take away my passport and make me Stateless?

kowloon

There are a number of US multinationals that will have been in favour of the above posted by MadsL, it benefits both countries to have an arrangement.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

What this is about is getting a giant sweeping broom and brushing away all the disaffected Irish people rather than deal with restructuring the economy of this state. What really annoyed me was at the start of the year when I was out of work for a month, I received a text message from FAS asking me to get down to a "jobs in Canada" convention. I actually have a two year valid WHV for a country I've no wish to be in. I thought I would get my dole cut if I didnt go down and went through the process. I got rehired here in the meantime so the visa will eventually expire and be given to someone else.

The state has no business in encouraging emigration or supporting as is the case here - illegal immigration.

Hang on.

You accuse the Irish of hypocrisy whilst keeping a WHV visa in your back pocket that you have no intention of using.

A. Why did you apply?
B. Why not surrender it and let some other soul that desperately needs it get the visa. I guess you are keeping it for your own future potential benefit.

Perhaps people in glass houses etc etc....


Someone quote this for Mr La-la-la-la can't hear you.

Terry1985

MadsL wrote: »

Bro, do you even math? You seem mathematically unable to grasp this.

Ah, attack the poster now.
I know exactly what I said, and posting Youtube propaganda videos doesn't constitute proof on your side.

You can't compare the US with Ireland in any meaningful ratios. they've more natural resources, more land, greater economy of scale, better economy etc.

It just seems ridiculous that the op complained about a measly 50,000 on a huge continent against what we have in a bankrupt small island.

MadsL wrote: »

And "Exchanging" illegals makes no sense, the 30,000 in Ireland are not, for the huge part, Americans.

Exchanging illegals makes no sense to you.
If America got rid of the 7-20 million you spoke of then that would cut unemployment in the native population.
Why shouldn't a country protect and put forward the interests of it's own citizens?

Or do you want to continue the black market abuse of undocumented labour below minimum wages?

My girlfriends brother overstayed in the US and was rejected entry back.
No problem with that at all.
Each state had the right to refuse entry like a nightclub... and clean house as necessary.

The OP is the one who is hopelessly naive in thinking the Irish are hypocritical, there was probably some background politics involved, in the same way we turned a blind eye to the US military flights through Shannon.
Political favours being exchanged.

Annasopra

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Over the past few decades, many Irish citizens have travelled across the Atlantic looking for better opportunities than their native country could perhaps provide. Unfortunately, a large proportion of these immigrants that have formed new lives in America have been unable to return home to visit family and friends – as their stay was officially deemed illegal by the federal government. But this trend may now be set to change.

Ok. If the Americans want to legalise or take a lighter approach towards their illegal immigrants, that is their choice.

Ireland, and a small number of other nations, including South Korea and Poland, have been successful in their lobbying efforts to secure country-specific addendum paragraphs to the detailed immigration bill that give their citizens benefits not necessarily extended to other foreigners.

Most curious. Why give these three countries citizens such special dispensation?

An unnamed Irish-American group, working with the Irish Embassy, had employed the services of former Representative Bruce Morrison, Democrat of Connecticut, to help push the cause, according to the New York Times last month, arguing that certain changes in law decades ago created an unfair barrier to citizens of Ireland in gaining access to the US.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has also reportedly lent some support, making the case with President Obama in Washington when he travelled over for the St. Patrick’s Day festivities earlier this year.



Aha. So lobbyists, with official state support and funding, have been fighting the illega..... whoops, undocumenteds corner. The state supports those who flout sovereign states immigration laws. Interesting.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/illegal-irish-could-travel-home-with-us-bill-29339619.html

Surely a state that supports its own citizens who illegally reside in another state, would legalise illegal non Irish nationals resident here, right? Practice what you preach and all that.

Wrong. We have at least 30, 000 illegal immigrants and the chance of them being legalised is slim and none. Imagine if president x of country y calling on our government to legalise its citizens. There would be uproar!

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-im-living-as-an-undocumented-migrant-in-ireland-831653-May2013/

Note: I dont support illegal immigration. Far from it. Its the states hypocrisy in all this that boils my p*ss.

It seems that the state is considering a regularisation scheme though

Members of the Justice for the Undocumented campaign held a transatlantic link up with Irish International Immigrant Centre in Boston to highlight the similarities between immigration reform in the US and proposed responses for undocumented migrants in Ireland. There is a growing broad-based consensus in Ireland that the situation of undocumented migrants needs to be addressed. The proposal currently with Minister Shatter’s office is very similar to proposals by the White House and the Gang of Eight’s Bipartisan Framework for Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Both proposals are a form of earned regularisation. The Government’s consideration of proposals in the Irish context strengthens representations by the Irish government on behalf of the Irish undocumented living and working in the United States.

Mark Tapley

MadsL wrote: »

Hang on.

You accuse the Irish of hypocrisy whilst keeping a WHV visa in your back pocket that you have no intention of using.

A. Why did you apply?
B. Why not surrender it and let some other soul that desperately needs it get the visa. I guess you are keeping it for your own future potential benefit.

Perhaps people in glass houses etc etc....


Someone quote this for Mr La-la-la-la can't hear you.

What he said.

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

Ah, attack the poster now.

I'm attacking your ability to do basic maths, not you. Tad sensitive aren't we?

I know exactly what I said, and posting Youtube propaganda videos doesn't constitute proof on your side.

An appropriate video considering the lack of basic numeracy you demonstrated in making your point.

You can't compare the US with Ireland in any meaningful ratios.

Errm. Yes you can. GDP, GNP, National Debt, Headline Inflation, etc etc there are numerous "ratios" specifically designed to compare countries. Immigrants per head of population would be exactly one "ratio" that could be directly compared.

they've more natural resources, more land, greater economy of scale, better economy etc.

Funny how one child in 5 goes hungry then so, given what a wonderful utopia it is. Everything good in America!!! La-la-la-la-la!!!

It just seems ridiculous that the op complained about a measly 50,000 on a huge continent against what we have in a bankrupt small island.

50,000 illegal Irish. 7 to 20 million illegals. Unless you want to argue it is only the Irish that matter. Verses approx 30k from 4.5million. A fraction of the US illegals per capita. US 0.02% verses Ireland's 0.0065% as I have aready pointed out to you.

Exchanging illegals makes no sense to you.
If America got rid of the 7-20 million you spoke of then that would cut unemployment in the native population.

Utter facepalm. Go watch my video again. You have no clue about even basic economics. If 20 million people disappeared from America, then unemployment would skyrocket. Who would American sell their goods and services to? Wage rates would rocket leading to hyperinflation and America would disappear into deep recession for a decade.

Do try and read some basic economic articles on immigration please.

http://reason.com/reasontv/2013/04/11/shikha-dalmia-on-the-5-reasons-why-low-s

As Shikha Dalmia, writing for Bloomberg, noted last month:

State-level studies that have taken both [fiscal and dynamic economic effects] into account consistently find that the economic contributions of these immigrants dwarf their fiscal costs. A 2006 analysis by the Texas comptroller estimated that low-skilled unauthorized workers cost the state treasury $504 million more than they paid in taxes in 2005. Without them, however, the state’s economy would have shrunk by 2.1 percent, or $17.7 billion, as the competitive edge of Texas businesses diminished.Likewise, a 2006 study by the Kenan Institute at the University of North Carolina found that although Hispanic immigrants imposed a net $61 million cost on the state budget, they contributed $9 billion to the gross state product.

Why shouldn't a country protect and put forward the interests of it's own citizens?

The US has. Through immigration reform.

Or do you want to continue the black market abuse of undocumented labour below minimum wages?

No. Precisely why I support immigration reform as in this Bill.

My girlfriends brother overstayed in the US and was rejected entry back.
No problem with that at all.

Quite a difference being a priviledged Westerner choosing to overstay, rather than a (forgive the phrase) wetback. Especially a minor wetback.

Each state had the right to refuse entry like a nightclub... and clean house as necessary.

That's exactly what Arizona has been refused the right to do. They were bypassing ICE agents and directly deporting to Mexico. The Supreme Court set them straight.

The OP is the one who is hopelessly naive in thinking the Irish are hypocritical, there was probably some background politics involved, in the same way we turned a blind eye to the US military flights through Shannon.
Political favours being exchanged.

I'll not argue with that.

Norfolk Enchants

MadsL wrote: »

Hang on.

You accuse the Irish of hypocrisy whilst keeping a WHV visa in your back pocket that you have no intention of using.
A. Why did you apply?
B. Why not surrender it and let some other soul that desperately needs it get the visa. I guess you are keeping it for your own future potential benefit.

Perhaps people in glass houses etc etc....


Someone quote this for Mr La-la-la-la can't hear you.

Haha! Thanks for proving my point. You have no real interest in discussing my OP and more interest in baiting me. I gave up a small tidbit of personal info and you guzzled it on down.

Anyway, when signing on for the first time you have to register with FAS. When you register with FAS, they take your mobile number so they can text you about jobfares, training, vacancies and what have you. The first text I received from them was informing me of the 'work in Canada' convention. Not too sure if they were suggesting I go or telling me to go, I went on down and a few companies were interested, gave me their details and suggested I apply for the whv as the program was opening shortly. By the time I almost finished the process, I got a new job. The visa expires in two months or so and im not spending money calling a premium number to cancel it. They will reoffer all untaken whv in Autumn or so.

Hope thats cleared up.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Haha! Thanks for proving my point. You have no real interest in discussing my OP and more interest in baiting me. I gave up a small tidbit of info and you guzzled it on down.

Except you haven't made any points. All you did was run away when I pointed out that the article doesn't say what you think it said. That and put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-can't hear you. Very mature.

Anyway, when signing on for the first time you have to register with FAS. When you register with FAS, they take your mobile number so they can text you about jobfares, training, vacancies and what have you. The first text I received from them was informing me of the 'work in Canada' convention. Not to sure if they were suggesting I go or telling me to go, I went on down a few companies were interested, gave me their details and suggested I apply for the whv as the program was opening shortly. By the time I almost finished the process, I got a new job. The visa expires in two months or so and im not spending money calling a premium number to cancel it. They will reoffer all untaken whv in Autumn or so.

Hope thats cleared up.

How generous of you not to send a simple letter returning the visa, and how selfish of you to hold a visa for two years and not use it. My nephew has been waiting six months IN Canada unable to work whilst waiting for his visa. Thanks. thanks a lot.

Norfolk Enchants

MadsL wrote: »

Except you haven't made any points. All you did was run away when I pointed out that the article doesn't say what you think it said. That and put your fingers in your ears and go la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-can't hear you. Very mature.



How generous of you not to send a simple letter returning the visa, and how selfish of you to hold a visa for two years and not use it. My nephew has been waiting six months IN Canada unable to work whilst waiting for his visa. Thanks. thanks a lot.

The visa is not valid for two years. Its valid for two years once you activate it. Mine hasnt been activated. You have roughly six months to activate it. So mine expires soon.

Are you even reading what I am saying? I dont think that you are.

PS- If there was a way that I could give my visa to your nephew I would in a heartbeat. But it doesnt work like that. All inactive visas will be reissued on a certain date. If I give it back tomorrow, it wont be available to someone else.

Norfolk Enchants

mango salsa wrote: »

There could actually be a lot of votes in it at local elections! Non citizens can vote at local elections!

Yes, but local politicians have very little say on national issues and only Irish/British citizens can vote in general elections. It wouldnt really benefit TDs to press for regularisation here. Definitely not in the current climate.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

The visa is not valid for two years. Its valid for two years once you activate it. Mine hasnt been activated. You have roughly six months to activate it. So mine expires soon.

Are you even reading what I am saying? I dont think that you are.

PS- If there was a way that I could give my visa to your nephew I would in a heartbeat. But it doesnt work like that. All inactive visas will be reissued on a certain date. If I give it back tomorrow, it wont be available to someone else.

I see you can hear me now. Fair enough, I'm not going to go trolling through the Canadian embassy website to make the point. You still didn't answer my first question about why you applied if you consider emigration/immigration so heinous?

Also while you are here, care to respond to my earlier question ?

MadsL wrote: »

Are the concessions won through lobbying and to be applied to new Irish visas under the new immigration Bill going to apply to existing Irish illegals? Yes or No?

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Yes, but local politicians have very little say on national issues and only Irish/British citizens can vote in general elections. It wouldnt really benefit TDs to press for regularisation here. Definitely not in the current climate.

The reform really needed is allowing TAX-PAYING residents to vote in national elections.

Norfolk Enchants

MadsL wrote: »

I see you can hear me now. Fair enough, I'm not going to go trolling through the Canadian embassy website to make the point. You still didn't answer my first question about why you applied if you consider emigration/immigration so heinous?

Also while you are here, care to respond to my earlier question ?

Moderate emigration can indeed be a great thing. We have always had emigration, even during the boom. It is nice to travel, see a bit of the world, enjoy sunnier climes, pick up new skills and work in a new environment. But the state should not be promoting emigration and encouraging its citizens to leave. The current government got in on a ticket calling for accountability and new jobs. The last thing an Irish person forced out of Ireland by economic circumstance would ever do is vote for FG/Labour, so of course its in the governments interests to keep the pressure valve of mass emigration going - they even dress it up by calling it a "lifestyle choice". 

Have I ever claimed that there was a problem with all immigration? Im not aware that I have. Would I like new arrivals screened, inline with most countries - absolutely. If one is skilled in an area were we are short - welcome. If one is bi-lingual and a multinational need bi-lingual support staff - welcome. If one is a genuine refugee - welcome. If one has fallen in love with an irish citizen and wants to live here with them - welcome. If one wants to set up an entrepreneurial project here - welcome.

That is my views on immigration in a nutshell. We have 400,000 plus in receipt of a welfare stipend, so no need to import any more unskilled workers. I, like the German interior minister, would call for a scale back of the free movement of labour.

But thats for my next thread.

K-9

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Moderate emigration can indeed be a great thing. We have always had emigration, even during the boom. It is nice to travel, see a bit of the world, enjoy sunnier climes, pick up new skills and work in a new environment. But the state should not be promoting emigration and encouraging its citizens to leave. The current government got in on a ticket calling for accountability and new jobs. The last thing an Irish person forced out of Ireland by economic circumstance would ever do is vote for FG/Labour, so of course its in the governments interests to keep the pressure valve of mass emigration going - they even dress it up by calling it a "lifestyle choice". 

Have I ever claimed that there was a problem with all immigration? Im not aware that I have. Would I like new arrivals screened, inline with most countries - absolutely. If one is skilled in an area were we are short - welcome. If one is bi-lingual and a multinational need bi-lingual support staff - welcome. If one is a genuine refugee - welcome. If one has fallen in love with an irish citizen and wants to live here with them - welcome. If one wants to set up an entrepreneurial project here - welcome.

That is my views on immigration in a nutshell. We have 400,000 plus in receipt of a welfare stipend, so no need to import any more unskilled workers. I, like the German interior minister, would call for a scale back of the free movement of labour.

But thats for my next thread.

Mod:

Just about the above part, do not start more threads immigration issues, thank you.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Moderate emigration can indeed be a great thing. We have always had emigration, even during the boom. It is nice to travel, see a bit of the world, enjoy sunnier climes, pick up new skills and work in a new environment. But the state should not be promoting emigration and encouraging its citizens to leave.

Is it? In what ways? By making the unemployed aware of job options overseas? Isn't that the responsible thing to do.

The current government got in on a ticket calling for accountability and new jobs. The last thing an Irish person forced out of Ireland by economic circumstance would ever do is vote for FG/Labour, so of course its in the governments interests to keep the pressure valve of mass emigration going - they even dress it up by calling it a "lifestyle choice". 

i was forced out of Ireland by economic circumstances and my previous voting choices would have included Labour. FF caused the mess not Labour.

Have I ever claimed that there was a problem with all immigration? Im not aware that I have. Would I like new arrivals screened, inline with most countries - absolutely. If one is skilled in an area were we are short - welcome. If one is bi-lingual and a multinational need bi-lingual support staff - welcome. If one is a genuine refugee - welcome. If one has fallen in love with an irish citizen and wants to live here with them - welcome. If one wants to set up an entrepreneurial project here - welcome.

That is my views on immigration in a nutshell. We have 400,000 plus in receipt of a welfare stipend, so no need to import any more unskilled workers. I, like the German interior minister, would call for a scale back of the free movement of labour.

Would that include EU unskilled?

You and the German interior minister have clearly never read much on the economics of immigration. The vast majority of economic studies on immigration show a net positive benefit from immigration. And those 400,000 on welfare - mostly Irish.

Now please answer my question earlier, it is a simple Yes/No answer and this is my third time asking it.

MadsL wrote: »

Are the concessions won through lobbying and to be applied to new Irish visas under the new immigration Bill going to apply to existing Irish illegals? Yes or No?

Annasopra

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

It wouldnt really benefit TDs to press for regularisation here. Definitely not in the current climate.

It's still under consideration though - despite your earlier assertion that it isnt