Irish hypocrisy on the illegal immigration issue

Norfolk Enchants

Over the past few decades, many Irish citizens have travelled across the Atlantic looking for better opportunities than their native country could perhaps provide. Unfortunately, a large proportion of these immigrants that have formed new lives in America have been unable to return home to visit family and friends – as their stay was officially deemed illegal by the federal government. But this trend may now be set to change.

Ok. If the Americans want to legalise or take a lighter approach towards their illegal immigrants, that is their choice.

Ireland, and a small number of other nations, including South Korea and Poland, have been successful in their lobbying efforts to secure country-specific addendum paragraphs to the detailed immigration bill that give their citizens benefits not necessarily extended to other foreigners.

Most curious. Why give these three countries citizens such special dispensation?

An unnamed Irish-American group, working with the Irish Embassy, had employed the services of former Representative Bruce Morrison, Democrat of Connecticut, to help push the cause, according to the New York Times last month, arguing that certain changes in law decades ago created an unfair barrier to citizens of Ireland in gaining access to the US.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has also reportedly lent some support, making the case with President Obama in Washington when he travelled over for the St. Patrick’s Day festivities earlier this year.



Aha. So lobbyists, with official state support and funding, have been fighting the illega..... whoops, undocumenteds corner. The state supports those who flout sovereign states immigration laws. Interesting.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/illegal-irish-could-travel-home-with-us-bill-29339619.html

Surely a state that supports its own citizens who illegally reside in another state, would legalise illegal non Irish nationals resident here, right? Practice what you preach and all that.

Wrong. We have at least 30, 000 illegal immigrants and the chance of them being legalised is slim and none. Imagine if president x of country y calling on our government to legalise its citizens. There would be uproar!

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-im-living-as-an-undocumented-migrant-in-ireland-831653-May2013/

Note: I dont support illegal immigration. Far from it. Its the states hypocrisy in all this that boils my p*ss.

mike65

The Irish exploit goodwill towards them in the USA to the maxiumum. Its a small industry. No country can do the same with regard to their illegals in Ireland.

Chinasea

I actually think that many of those that don't see the hypocrisy believe that it is an Ire'ish right of passage, saints & scholars and most wanted better class of immigrants.

IM0

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

.

and another quality username, excellent sir truely excellent :cool: thats 2 in as many days now, moar I say moar

MadsL

Oh look, another Norfolk Enchants immigration thread. What an unusual occurrence.

If you simply cannot resist posting threads, why not at least be clear about what you are proposing, and not veil it behind silly threads about what lobbyists do in America.

You missed out this bit.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/illegal-irish-could-travel-home-with-us-bill-29339619.html

As per the current proposal, 10,500 Irish graduates annually could receive work visas generally reserved for foreigners considered “highly-skilled”. If the legislation comes to fruition, experienced workers should also find it easier to gain citizenship, allowing them to travel back and forth to Ireland whenever they wished.

These are new visas and are NOT granting rights to existing illegals.

As ever, misinformation characterises your posts.

Norfolk Enchants

mike65 wrote: »

The Irish exploit goodwill towards them in the USA to the maxiumum. Its a small industry. No country can do the same with regard to their illegals in Ireland.

There are 50,000 illegals in America. The government which successfully lobbies to get them regularised will receive votes in the next election from some very happy family members.

Our largest minority groups are non visa required nationals and EU citizens. None would be too concerned about illegals. Where as in America, both parties are after the hispanic vote. Its not in the governments interest to legalise the illegals here. No votes in it. Quite the contrary, perhaps.

Norfolk Enchants

MadsL wrote: »

Oh look, another Norfolk Enchants immigration thread. What an unusual occurrence.

If you simply cannot resist posting threads, why not at least be clear about what you are proposing, and not veil it behind silly threads about what lobbyists do in America.

You missed out this bit.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/illegal-irish-could-travel-home-with-us-bill-29339619.html



These are new visas and are NOT granting rights to existing illegals.




As ever, misinformation characterises your posts.

Is an illegal immigration bill being discussed in the senate? Has the Irish government lobbied for Its citizens to be legalised? Yes to both. No misinformation.

Nodin

'Politicians In Doublethink Shocker', tbh.

biko

Leave Hippocrates alone :pandacry:

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Is an illegal immigration bill being discussed in the senate? Has the Irish government lobbied for Its citizens to be legalised? Yes to both. No misinformation.

Are the concessions won through lobbying and to be applied to new Irish visas under the new immigration Bill going to apply to existing Irish illegals? Yes or No?

gurramok

It is hypocrisy alright, there were tens of thousands of Irish illegals in the USA when we had full employment back around 2006, we had to import immigrants to fill jobs back then. The way I see it, you obey the laws of the country you migrate to, and the Irish should be no exception.

MadsL

I'm confused. OP is complaining that lobbyists have won 10,500 new legal immigration visas for the Irish. Wut?

Explain what that has to do with illegal immigration, other than for another muddy misinformed immigration thread.

Norfolk Enchants

MadsL wrote: »

I'm confused. OP is complaining that lobbyists have won 10,500 new legal immigration visas for the Irish. Wut?

Explain what that has to do with illegal immigration, other than for another muddy misinformed immigration thread.

Can you read. Im pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy shown by successive Irish governments in lobbying for the illegal Irish in America to be legalised, using taxpayers money, all the while failing to debate the 30, 000 illegals here and what to do with them. Practice what you preach.

Or just dont meddle in others internal affairs. That would be best.

thiarfearr

Ireland should do whats best for Ireland, not what looks good to some left wing hippies

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Can you read.

Yes I can. Can you?

That article points out how irish lobbying has won 10,500 LEGAL new visas for NEW immigrants. Do you object to the State lobbying for legal emigration opportunities, especially under the current economics???

Im pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy shown by successive Irish governments in lobbying for the illegal Irish in America to be legalised,

The Irish are being treated no different under the new Immigration Bill than Mexicans. What's your problem?

using taxpayers money, all the while failing to debate the 30, 000 illegals here and what to do with them. Practice what you preach.

Failing to debate? You think 30,000 illegals are a problem, others do not. That is the debate. This has NOTHING to do with the US Immigration Bill. You are just using it to stir up your "problem".

Or just dont meddle in others internal affairs. That would be best.

Perhaps you should heed your own advice and not use the US as a peg on which to hang your anti-immigration colours.

Norfolk Enchants

You seem more interested in having a go at me than discussing the point I made. You are on my ignore list. You are free to quote me, just dont expect a response.

Good luck.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

You seem more interested in having a go at me than discussing the point I made. You are on my ignore list. You are free to quote me, just dont expect a response.

Good luck.

Run away when challenged by the actual facts from the article you yourself posted. Check.

La-la-la fingers in ears, can't hear you tactic when shown to be wrong.
Check.

Start another spurious thread later.
Pending.

Feel free to close mods, this is an absolutely content free thread.

pabloh999

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

There are 50,000 illegals in America. The government which successfully lobbies to get them regularised will receive votes in the next election from some very happy family members.

Our largest minority groups are non visa required nationals and EU citizens. None would be too concerned about illegals. Where as in America, both parties are after the hispanic vote. Its not in the governments interest to legalise the illegals here. No votes in it. Quite the contrary, perhaps.

Whats your point?
Should the irish gov not at least try to look after its citizens, home or abroad?
The gov of Mauritius (or anywhere else) are free to lobby the irish gov to secure visas for its citizens.

MadsL

pabloh999 wrote: »

Whats your point?

OP doesn't have one, other than anti-immigrant flag waving .

Should the irish gov not at least try to look after its citizens, home or abroad?
The gov of Mauritius (or anywhere else) are free to lobby the irish gov to secure visas for its citizens.

He apparently believes the Irish State should not attempt to get LEGAL visa concessions for its citizens.

Bizarre.

Norfolk Enchants

pabloh999 wrote: »

Whats your point?
Should the irish gov not at least try to look after its citizens, home or abroad?
The gov of Mauritius (or anywhere else) are free to lobby the irish gov to secure visas for its citizens.

What this is about is getting a giant sweeping broom and brushing away all the disaffected Irish people rather than deal with restructuring the economy of this state. What really annoyed me was at the start of the year when I was out of work for a month, I received a text message from FAS asking me to get down to a "jobs in Canada" convention. I actually have a two year valid WHV for a country I've no wish to be in. I thought I would get my dole cut if I didnt go down and went through the process. I got rehired here in the meantime so the visa will eventually expire and be given to someone else.

The state has no business in encouraging emigration or supporting as is the case here - illegal immigration.

MadsL

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

What this is about is getting a giant sweeping broom and brushing away all the disaffected Irish people rather than deal with restructuring the economy of this state. What really annoyed me was at the start of the year when I was out of work for a month, I received a text message from FAS asking me to get down to a "jobs in Canada" convention. I actually have a two year valid WHV for a country I've no wish to be in. I thought I would get my dole cut if I didnt go down and went through the process. I got rehired here in the meantime so the visa will eventually expire and be given to someone else.

The state has no business in encouraging emigration or supporting as is the case here - illegal immigration.

When did the State encourage/support illegal immigration?

That's some axe you are grinding here.

Terry1985

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

There are 50,000 illegals in America. The government which successfully lobbies to get them regularised will receive votes in the next election from some very happy family members

50,000 illegals in a country of 314,000,000 is a drop in the ocean.

There are an estimated 30,000 'undocumented migrants' in Ireland in a population of 4,576,000.
All have to be non Eu citizens.
No idea if they're criminals or involved in criminality or social welfare fraud to sustain their income.

In an era of austerity, I'm all for targeting illegals from the system. I'm also 100% behind other states who take action against people including Irish, who bypassed their immigration controls.

pabloh999

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

What this is about is getting a giant sweeping broom and brushing away all the disaffected Irish people rather than deal with restructuring the economy of this state. What really annoyed me was at the start of the year when I was out of work for a month, I received a text message from FAS asking me to get down to a "jobs in Canada" convention. I actually have a two year valid WHV for a country I've no wish to be in. I thought I would get my dole cut if I didnt go down and went through the process. I got rehired here in the meantime so the visa will eventually expire and be given to someone else.

The state has no business in encouraging emigration or supporting as is the case here - illegal immigration.

The "sweeping broom" you are talking about maybe a different discussion. I think the current irish gov are happy to let people emigrate given the state of the economy
BUT,
there was about 50,000 illegals in the USA during the boom, when there was plenty of work back home.
It is extremely difficult to get a U.S working visa

suicide_circus

Bill: On the seventh day the Lord rested, but before that he did, he squatted over the side of England and what came out of him... was Ireland. No offense son.

Amsterdam Vallon: Nah, none taken, sir. I grew up here. All I ever knew of Ireland was from the talk of the others at the orphan asylum.

Bill: And which part of that excrementitious isle where your forebears spawned?

Amsterdam Vallon: I've been told Kerry, I lost proof of it in my language at the asylum.

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

50,000 illegals in a country of 314,000,000 is a drop in the ocean.

There are an estimated 30,000 'undocumented migrants' in Ireland in a population of 4,576,000.
All have to be non Eu citizens.
No idea if they're criminals or involved in criminality or social welfare fraud to sustain their income.

In an era of austerity, I'm all for targeting illegals from the system. I'm also 100% behind other states who take action against people including Irish, who bypassed their immigration controls.

Drop in the ocean you say...

US has an estimated 7 million to 20 million illegals. That would be between 0.02% of population and 0.065% of population.

Now in Ireland, 0.0065% of the population is illegal according to your figures.

Check your maths...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJX5XHnONTI

Terry1985

MadsL wrote: »

Drop in the ocean you say...

US has an estimated 7 million to 20 million illegals. That would be between 0.02% of population and 0.065% of population.

Now in Ireland, 0.0065% of the population is illegal according to your figures

Statistics have always been abused like you have done to try and trick the population.
I worked with actual numbers, you worked with incomparable ratios.

I compared the undocumented Irish in the us with the undocumented migrants in Ireland.
If we exchanged like for like, we'd have to support another 20,000 people.

You compared every countries illegal immigrants in the us against an unknown figure of us illegal emigrant population.
You're not comparing like with like, also a stronger US economy can support more black market labour as the population rejects low paid wages.

Either way, our incompetent system is open to much more social welfare abuse like multiple pps numbers and selling pps numbers.

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

Statistics have always been abused like you have done to try and trick the population.
I worked with actual numbers, you worked with incomparable ratios.

I compared the undocumented Irish in the us with the undocumented migrants in Ireland.
If we exchanged like for like, we'd have to support another 20,000 people.

You compared every countries illegal immigrants in the us against an unknown figure of us illegal emigrant population.
You're not comparing like with like, also a stronger US economy can support more black market labour as the population rejects low paid wages.

Either way, our incompetent system is open to much more social welfare abuse like multiple pps numbers and selling pps numbers.

Trick? A trick would be if I quoted the numbers of undocumented Afghans in Ireland and used that as the basis of my argument.

You related a subset of illegal immigrants in the US (the Irish) against the entirety of illegals in Ireland. Not apples with apples by any stretch. You drew the conclusion that Ireland has a bigger "problem".

I compared the estimated total number of illegals in the US compared with the the estimated total number of illegals in Ireland and showed you that if anything was a drop in the ocean - it was Ireland's 0.0065% of the population that is illegal compared to the US.

Read my posts again. No trickery.

Converting actual numbers to percentages does not make them incomparable. This is not even JC level maths ffs.

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

Either way, our incompetent system is open to much more social welfare abuse like multiple pps numbers and selling pps numbers.

How much more? I'm curious as to what data you used for this.

Terry1985

MadsL wrote: »

Converting actual numbers to percentages does not make them incomparable. This is not even JC level maths ffs.

Ah yes the 'ffs' defense :rolleyes:

My argument is that each country should be responsible for it's own population.
We've allegedly 50,000 in the US, and I say no problem we'll exchange them for the illegals in Ireland.

Your argument seems to be that every country should accept a certain percentage of illegals relative to their population.

MadsL

Terry1985 wrote: »

Ah yes the 'ffs' defense :rolleyes:

My argument is that each country should be responsible for it's own population.
We've allegedly 50,000 in the US, and I say no problem we'll exchange them for the illegals in Ireland.

Your argument seems to be that every country should accept a certain percentage of illegals relative to their population.

Not what I said at all.

You said there are only 50,000 Irish illegal in the US, a drop in the ocean compared to the 30,000 of all nationalities in Ireland at the moment.

I showed you the percentage of illegals in Ireland of all nationalities compared to the irish population against the total estimated population of illegals in the US of all nationalities compared to the US population.

Bro, do you even math? You seem mathematically unable to grasp this.

Here's basically what you said. There are 2 lads in my maths class with blue eyes, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the 1,000,006 Swedes with blue eyes. A nonsense comparison.

What I said was that there are 1% of lads in the class with blue eyes compared to the 30.7% of Swedes who have blue eyes. A meaningful comparison.

And "Exchanging" illegals makes no sense, the 30,000 in Ireland are not, for the huge part, Americans.

Annasopra

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

There are 50,000 illegals in America. The government which successfully lobbies to get them regularised will receive votes in the next election from some very happy family members.

Our largest minority groups are non visa required nationals and EU citizens. None would be too concerned about illegals. Where as in America, both parties are after the hispanic vote. Its not in the governments interest to legalise the illegals here. No votes in it. Quite the contrary, perhaps.

There could actually be a lot of votes in it at local elections! Non citizens can vote at local elections!