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What I think should be changed.???

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    #32
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Back to the class rant... There may be a political class, a legal class and a medical class ,(but even those are fairly fluid) ... Builders definitely had/have political ear but most weren't born into the establishment... Most of the former (paper) billionaires that are now struggling to get by on a mere couple of hundred grand a year, started out with a tractor or a Honda 50 and not much else..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #33
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    zielarz wrote: »
    I thought that parents pay for schools through taxes.


    No. Everyone who makes use of the education pays for the education.

    Would the multinationals be here if they didn't have people who could read and write to work for them?


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    #34
    zielarz
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭zielarz


    Lbeard wrote: »
    No. Everyone who makes use of the education pays for the education.

    Would the multinationals be here if they didn't have people who could read and write to work for them?

    I have no idea what you're talking about.


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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Lbeard wrote: »
    Oh here we go again with the herd werk. All those eejits given cash to build ghost estates and speculate on Romanian holiday apartments, were lent the money on the basis of their social class...
    I really doubt that a high proportion of builders come from “upper” social classes.
    Lbeard wrote: »
    Oh please. The social strata in Ireland means that people with no aptitudes or competence get high paying jobs, where other people do the actual work.
    Yes, of course. Nobody ever gets promoted in Ireland, do they? No such thing as working your way up, is there?
    Lbeard wrote: »
    That's how the class system in Ireland really works. These guys, many don't even bother going to college, why bother. They just look at the jobs paying 70 - 80 grand, go "I'll have that", and a lot of the time they'll get it.
    So all those guys working for Google have absolutely no experience in software development? No degrees in computer science or mathematics?


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    #36
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    djpbarry wrote: »
    I really doubt that a high proportion of builders come from “upper” social classes.

    Where the money is you'll find the upper class. Many people in Ireland have a concept of upper class being someone who reads French poetry in their spare time, speaks with a pompous accent, etc. This is not so. The Irish upper class are scaldy and generally ignorant. And the people reading French poetry in their spare time are generally from a lower socioeconomic group - wannabees, who think a little self improvement will help them out in life - it doesn't.

    And yes, a lot of upper class men like to talk like roughty toughties.
    Yes, of course. Nobody ever gets promoted in Ireland, do they? No such thing as working your way up, is there?

    Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.


    So all those guys working for Google have absolutely no experience in software development? No degrees in computer science or mathematics?

    Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people. And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

    In terms of earnings, only if you have a specific difficult to learn hard skill that is in demand can you cross the class barrier (but they won't like you for it - the one thing they loath is parvenus). In general you are paid in line with your class. This why someone who is very highly skilled in IT, maths, whatever, will have a idiot who has trouble switching on their lap top "manijing" them.

    Can we please stop talking about class


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    #37
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Lbeard wrote: »


    . And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.


    How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?


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    #38
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    Godge wrote: »
    How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?

    Google's core product has not changed in a decade. The reason for their success was KISS (keep it simple, stupid). They monopolised the search market, and online advertising. because the other search engines (which there were lots of, and some had absurd funds to spend on development and marketing), were greedy. Before Google, if you did a search, you could be spammed with pages of sponsored links, and the sites you were looking for might not appear. Yahoo took weeks to list sites.

    Google is now like any other big corporation. Big corporations like to hire stupid people. It's to do with everyone getting on with each other. Really bright people make average people feel stupid and unhappy - it causes problems. If you don't believe me about Google - go stand outside their Dublin head quarters, you'll see the staff. They're the kind of people who walk around with their mouths open - see for yourself - they're mouth breathers.


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    #39
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Lbeard wrote: »
    Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.
    No, I obviously mean "workers" being promoted into managerial positions, or starting their own businesses. I suppose this doesn't happen in Ireland?
    Lbeard wrote: »
    Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people.
    No they're not, but feel free to demonstrate otherwise.
    Lbeard wrote: »
    And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.
    Is it indeed. So a bunch of "not very intelligent" designed and implemented one of the world's most popular search engines, one of the world's most popular web mapping services and one of the world's most popular operating systems for mobile devices, among other things?


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    #40
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Lbeard wrote: »
    Where the money is you'll find the upper class. Many people in Ireland have a concept of upper class being someone who reads French poetry in their spare time, speaks with a pompous accent, etc. This is not so. The Irish upper class are scaldy and generally ignorant. And the people reading French poetry in their spare time are generally from a lower socioeconomic group - wannabees, who think a little self improvement will help them out in life - it doesn't.

    And yes, a lot of upper class men like to talk like roughty toughties.



    Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.





    Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people. And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

    In terms of earnings, only if you have a specific difficult to learn hard skill that is in demand can you cross the class barrier (but they won't like you for it - the one thing they loath is parvenus). In general you are paid in line with your class. This why someone who is very highly skilled in IT, maths, whatever, will have a idiot who has trouble switching on their lap top "manijing" them.

    Can we please stop talking about class

    That would be nice. Allow me to help settle the argument somewhat:
    The wage premium for sons is particularly large in some southern European OECD countries and in the United Kingdom. In these countries, having a father with tertiary education raises a son’s earnings by 20% or more, compared to one whose father had upper-secondary education. The wage penalty of having a father with only basic education, compared to one whose father had upper-secondary education appears to be high in the same countries, as well as in the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Ireland. In these countries, the wage of a son whose father has below upper secondary education falls short by more than 16% of the wage of a son whose father has upper-secondary education.

    ...

    The influence of a father’s education on his daughter’s wages follows a similar cross-country pattern as the one observed for men (Figure A3.1, Panel B). For women, the average wage penalty of coming from a disadvantaged background is sometimes much higher than the premium of coming from an advantaged background. Women coming from disadvantaged backgrounds also face lower probabilities of being employed, as implied by the coefficients estimated in the employment selection equation (Table A3.3). Focusing on the middle-aged (35-44 years of age) cohort, there is a significant employment penalty of having a father with less than upper-second ary education, compared with having a father with upper-secondary education in Greece, Italy, Ireland, Belgium, Finland, and the United Kingdom.

    ...

    Most intergenerational mobility studies present average measures of persistence across generations. Implicitly, it is assumed that the effect of parental background is identical over the entire wage (or income) distribution. However, it is likely that the degree of wage persistence differs along the wage distribution, as suggested by some empirical studies (e.g. Jäntti et al. 2006; Bratberg et al. 2007; Corak and Heisz 1999; Grawe 2004). Descriptive analysis based on the EU-SILC data suggests that in most European OECD countries covered by the analysis, persistence in wages (in relation to father’s education) is higher at the tails of the distribution, especially at the top percentiles (Table A3.4). Persistence at the top is relatively high for men in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Luxembourg and Finland, and in France, Ireland, Italy and Spain for women, while persistence at the bottom is particularly high for men in Denmark, Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, and in Luxembourg and Ireland for women.

    Source: http://librelivre.net/read/21q4

    In other words, yes, Ireland has strong inter-generational persistence of education and earning power, which is basically an indicator of limited social mobility and the existence of class. We're not the most rigid, but we're towards the top within Europe.

    Anecdotal examples of people who have "made it" are not particularly useful as counterpoints, since the reason we know about them may be precisely because they're unusual. Societies in which social mobility is lower tend to pay more attention to the occasional exception - in some cases, and in some ways, this may be deliberate.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #41
    Bits_n_Bobs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Bits_n_Bobs


    The upper class are clearly the OP's intellectual inferiors. So are the idiots working in the idiot search engine thingy. The op's 5 year plan will allow the truly intelligiment (but currently downtrodden) to come to power and create a truly egalitarian dictatorship. With obvious boundaries like county lines....


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    #42
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Lbeard wrote: »
    Google's core product has not changed in a decade. The reason for their success was KISS (keep it simple, stupid). They monopolised the search market, and online advertising. because the other search engines (which there were lots of, and some had absurd funds to spend on development and marketing), were greedy. Before Google, if you did a search, you could be spammed with pages of sponsored links, and the sites you were looking for might not appear. Yahoo took weeks to list sites.

    Google is now like any other big corporation. Big corporations like to hire stupid people. It's to do with everyone getting on with each other. Really bright people make average people feel stupid and unhappy - it causes problems. If you don't believe me about Google - go stand outside their Dublin head quarters, you'll see the staff. They're the kind of people who walk around with their mouths open - see for yourself - they're mouth breathers.

    Wow is all I can say.


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    #43
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    I'll say something first - don't always assume someone who has a gripe or criticism regards class, has a beard, and on the wall behind them has portraits of Jim Larkin and Karl Marx.
    Scofflaw wrote: »
    In other words, yes, Ireland has strong inter-generational persistence of education and earning power, which is basically an indicator of limited social mobility and the existence of class.

    This is a kind of sociologist making determinations about causation from co-relation and inter-relationships. To paraphrase/quote Nicholas Taleb; education is something you get when you get money. Generally not the other way around. The word Taleb in his name comes from his ancestor who made the initial family money. Taleb means scholar (just like the Afghan Taliban). His ancestor made money trading in Levant - then got the family educated. You do not have to go back a million years to a point where only a minority of people were literate. It meant that Taleb's family had access to elite education and employment. And...crucially...easy access to capital.

    Central planners, informed by academics, have trained the plumbers believing the wealth would follow. Which is why Poland was really broke, with millions of unemployed plumbers.

    Economic structures are very complex and nebulous. If you look at Ireland. In the 80s we were churning out really great, really hard working and bright graduates (the message they learned in childhood, was be bright or be poor - the prospect of the gallows concentrates the mind greatly). But these graduates largely found themselves unemployable, and got on the boat to England, America, Germany. At the same time, school drop outs, both physically and intellectually lazy were finding themselves in very well paid and stable jobs for semi-states, etc. This is a problem with class systems; if you're guaranteed a good life through your class and connections, you don't find yourself burdened to develop your mind or much else.

    In the 90s, there was a perfect opportunity for many of the Irish graduates who would have left the country. But now again they're fleeing the country.
    We're not the most rigid, but we're towards the top within Europe.

    We are not the most rigid. And this is a reason we were able to develop so quickly in the last 30 to 40 years, whereas southern European countries where the rigidness is beyond a joke.

    One reason Thatcher's City did so well was they let the barrow boys in (barrow as in wheel barrow - Delboy market traders - as opposed to Harrow boys (a school for those who can't quite afford Eton)). People who've had a taste of poverty can be very motivated to make money. There was a very appealing egalitarianism to Thatcher - but it also had a coked up and apocalyptic individualism to it - unleash the dogs from the Isle dogs. New York did something similar in letting used car salesmen and shakedown merchants from the Bronx in. The wiseguys once they get cash send their kids to Harvard and Yale.

    I'd have to say I'm not a Thatcherite, but an aim of her project was to shatter the English class system and set the dynamic forces free that were held by it. Fine Gaeler's interpret her project differently - but they are loonies (Fine Gael go to extreme lengths to make sure the public never sees or hears the party machine - if you think the far-left have loons, you've never seen what FG have- Nigel Farage eat your heart out)
    Anecdotal examples of people who have "made it" are not particularly useful as counterpoints, since the reason we know about them may be precisely because they're unusual. Societies in which social mobility is lower tend to pay more attention to the occasional exception - in some cases, and in some ways, this may be deliberate.

    Yes, whenever David Cameron is accused of loading his cabinet and advisors with old Etonians, he holds up the fact that one member of the cabinet is a former miner.


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    #44
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Good Deal for civil servants. Pension after 31 years down from 40.
    Nice!
    What are your senators meant to do?
    Any changes to the Dail?


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    #45
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Idiot!

    PRSI on all incomes at 10%

    75,000 + " " 45%

    Usual waffle one sees here all too regularly. Sure, lets discourage anyone from showing a bit of ambition and initiative.
    Work hard..., so we can take it from you and knock your income back to below the level of the dole (without the benefits of the dole).

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #46
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Geuze wrote: »
    Note that the proposed income tax rate is lower than the current regime.

    Currently, after about 35k, the marginal tax rate is 52%.

    OP wasn't referring to marginal tax rates AFAIK, I could be wrong but it would make anyone earning over 75k pay a marginal tax of close to 70%


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    #47
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    Godge wrote: »
    How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?

    The most successful indigenous companies in the last decade where builders.

    Before the crash everyone was calling them geniuses.


    Coca Cola is the most successful soft drinks company in the world. Is it because they have more intelligent staff than Pepsi or Dr Pepper?.....Or are there a multitude of different reasons.


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    #48
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    djpbarry wrote: »
    No they're not, but feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

    Ask a corporate human resource manager, which is more important; fitting in, or being very intelligent.

    Big companies hire very average people, because average people get on with average people. Google have the luxury of lots of cash, and a large population eager to work for them. So they can hire below average people.

    The brightest people I have ever known were technies. But you'll find very few of the really bright ones working for large companies.


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    #49
    Bits_n_Bobs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Bits_n_Bobs


    Can we substitute 'upper class' with 'civil servants' and get back to a rational normal civil service bashing type debate? This talk of intelligent people and where they might be working is just weird....


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    #50
    PADDY FLYNN
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭PADDY FLYNN


    Thank you so much for your view. I am very pleased that you agree with some of my suggestions but regarding the salaries paid to public servants, for a state with a population of 4.5million people, with only 1.5 million working in the public sector. As people we have relied on our college academics to run our country with the past 35 years.

    Someone once said that if we paid peanuts that we get monkeys. We have paid with platinum and we have ended up with donkeys.

    We have layers of politicians from TD'S to senators who at this present time cannot seem to even organise a piss up in a brewery.

    We have highly paid secretaries in each department , with Hugh salaries and pension schemes. These secretaries as far as I am concerned Seem to be totally un interested in what it costs to run the department.

    Every department has a Jnr minster and a minister , with even less interested to what it costs to run the department. Opposition party's seem to be totally incompetent as they seem to be asking for more.

    That is why we are back again to the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's 90,s and 2000. Young people having to emigrate.

    I have no problem with the private sector and what people earn in it as long as they pay their taxes and there will be no change if you the young people do not stand up and insist on change . You are the people of tomorrow.

    I will be very grateful for any other suggestions, comments or costing and again I would like to thank you all for your response on the issues I have raised.


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    #51
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    I am very pleased that you agree with some of my suggestions but regarding the salaries paid to public servants, for a state with a population of 4.5million people, with only 1.5 million working in the public sector.

    I think you've got the latter figure wrong, maybe you put the decimal point in the wrong place.
    We have paid with platinum and we have ended up with donkeys.

    Some times we got racehorses and sometimes we got donkeys. The problem was that no effort is made to distinguish which is which. Despite the "crisis", this is still the case and people are happy with that.
    As people we have relied on our college academics to run our country with the past 35 years.

    If only. Instead they only send for these people (Patrick Honihan, Niamh Brennan etc) to clean up when someone else has f***ed up bigtime.


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    #52
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Lbeard wrote: »

    Big companies hire very average people, because average people get on with average people. Google have the luxury of lots of cash, and a large population eager to work for them. So they can hire below average people.

    The thing is if Google employee below average people or even average and their competitors higher all the best people Google can forget about maintaining its market position. Companies like Google are built on idea's. Googles initial claim to fame and one or its major products is the line of code it uses for it search engine. If another company designs something that is superior and Google can't match it they will inevitably lose their market position. Same for their other products.


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    #53
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Lbeard wrote: »
    Ask a corporate human resource manager, which is more important; fitting in, or being very intelligent.
    I had no idea recruitment boiled down to such a simple, binary choice.
    Lbeard wrote: »
    Big companies hire very average people, because average people get on with average people. Google have the luxury of lots of cash, and a large population eager to work for them. So they can hire below average people.
    So all of Google's bright ideas are coming from "below average people" (whatever that means)?


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    #54
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    The thing is if Google employee below average people or even average and their competitors higher all the best people Google can forget about maintaining its market position.

    That's all it takes. Intelligence and hard work, always trumps class and capital.
    Companies like Google are built on idea's.

    To make it in this world...All you need is a dream.
    Googles initial claim to fame and one or its major products is the line of code it uses for it search engine. If another company designs something that is superior and Google can't match it they will inevitably lose their market position. Same for their other products.x

    No. If a company designs a product similar or even superior to Google, they would need to spend at the very least hundreds of millions before the public could become aware they had a superior product - in the meantime Google would rip off all their good ideas. If you really want to take on Google, you'd need billions to spend on marketing or a totalitarian government like In China that's allowed Boku to grow.

    Your logic, though admiral in its' hopefulness, is just not reality. If the fat parish priest gets his fat stupid niece a job teaching in the local national school. If the village has the most brilliant teacher in the world, and everyone knows it, and they are unemployed, there is no mechanism for them to usurp the fat parish priest's fat and stupid niece. But they are many who would argue, that the parish priests fat stupid niece is doing a better job - she is creating traditional Irish people, with traditional Irish intelligence. Imagine if these children became too intelligent? What would happen to our traditional Irish culture?


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    #55
    BOHtox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    "A government for the people..." is one who does not expect to take more than half of one's hard-earned money!


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    #56
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Lbeard wrote: »
    No. If a company designs a product similar or even superior to Google, they would need to spend at the very least hundreds of millions before the public could become aware they had a superior product - in the meantime Google would rip off all their good ideas. If you really want to take on Google, you'd need billions to spend on marketing or a totalitarian government like In China that's allowed Boku to grow.

    No company makes similar products to Google:confused:. I think Microsoft and Apple would very insulted never mind other competitors. When you consider Goggle v Bing, Android v Windows Mobile v iphone Google Maps v Microsoft maps Google Plus v Facebook etc. There are plenty of alternatives to Google backed by companies that aren't exactly short on cash/ not well know and aren't totalitarian governments.

    Also people by and large will change relatively quickly if something superior appears in the IT world. Look at the decline of Blackberry and Bebo for example.


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    #57
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Lbeard wrote: »
    No. If a company designs a product similar or even superior to Google, they would need to spend at the very least hundreds of millions before the public could become aware they had a superior product - in the meantime Google would rip off all their good ideas. If you really want to take on Google, you'd need billions to spend on marketing or a totalitarian government like In China that's allowed Boku to grow.
    People probably said the same thing about Yahoo! 15 years ago, and yet, now we have Google.


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    #58
    Allumni
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Allumni


    djpbarry wrote: »
    People probably said the same thing about Yahoo! 15 years ago, and yet, now we have Google.

    +1. Same thing for Facebook and MySpace (and Bebo come to think of that). It's all about doing the "in" thing on the internet.


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    #59
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Lbeard wrote: »
    That's all it takes. Intelligence and hard work, always trumps class and capital.



    To make it in this world...All you need is a dream.



    No. If a company designs a product similar or even superior to Google, they would need to spend at the very least hundreds of millions before the public could become aware they had a superior product - in the meantime Google would rip off all their good ideas. If you really want to take on Google, you'd need billions to spend on marketing or a totalitarian government like In China that's allowed Boku to grow.

    Your logic, though admiral in its' hopefulness, is just not reality. If the fat parish priest gets his fat stupid niece a job teaching in the local national school. If the village has the most brilliant teacher in the world, and everyone knows it, and they are unemployed, there is no mechanism for them to usurp the fat parish priest's fat and stupid niece. But they are many who would argue, that the parish priests fat stupid niece is doing a better job - she is creating traditional Irish people, with traditional Irish intelligence. Imagine if these children became too intelligent? What would happen to our traditional Irish culture?

    I see what you did there. You moved from a anecdotal story about a parish priest in a village - if there are any left - to make your point about Google, a multinational with probably quite different hiring practices to a national school.

    I'm left thinking that maybe you think googles hiring managers are Parish priests?


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    #60
    Lbeard
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 311 ✭✭Lbeard


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    No company makes similar products to Google:confused:. I think Microsoft and Apple would very insulted never mind other competitors. When you consider Goggle v Bing, Android v Windows Mobile v iphone Google Maps v Microsoft maps Google Plus v Facebook etc. There are plenty of alternatives to Google backed by companies that aren't exactly short on cash/ not well know and aren't totalitarian governments.

    Google have the search market in the bag. If you're going to spend for advertising, you'll pick Google, most bang for buck. There are other search engines but none make anything like the money Google do.
    Also people by and large will change relatively quickly if something superior appears in the IT world. Look at the decline of Blackberry and Bebo for example.

    They don't. People are morons. Trying to convince people that computers and webpages could improve their businesses in the 90s, was harder than getting them to join the Jehovah's witnesses.


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    #61
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Google have the search market in the bag.
    They don't. People are morons

    Google wasn't the first search engine, so people must have shown some ability to change.


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