What I think should be changed.???

PADDY FLYNN

To whom this may concern

I would like to put forward my suggestions on how I feel our state should be governed. I would appreciate hearing the opinions of others and hopefully get some feedback on same.

To quote the words of Abraham Lincoln we should have "A government for the people by the people" and all the elected representatives should be accountable to the electorate.

Government: New Establishment.
1. Governor
2. Vice Governor
3. Senators - 27 in number plus 1 chairperson
4. Mayors - 26 in number ( one for each county )
Department secretaries to be appointed by the incoming governor.

Secretaries to be totally responsible for their departments and answerable to the governor and the senate.

The Attorney General to be appointed by the governor and senate, other appointments by the governor and senate: governor of central bank, chief medical officer, garda commissioner and chief of staff for the defence forces

- salaries to range from max €200,000 to minimum of €100,000.

No pension for any political appointment for one term.

Public and civil servants - 50% of salary after 31 years of service.

All expenses incurred will be paid on production of receipt of same.

Free public transport to be used where available. Staff cars to be used if public transport not available

Revenue

PRSI on all incomes at 10%

All salaries 5% pension contributions

Income Tax Bands:-
15,000 Rate of 5%
20,000 " " 10%
30,000 " " 15%
40,000 " " 20%
50,000 " " 25%
60,000 " " 30%
70,000 " " 35%
75,000 + " " 45%

All lands to be taxed at €20.00 per acre P.A vat to remain the same

Social Welfare Departments

Social welfare recipients to do 1 hours work for every €10.00, i.e. approx 18 hours per week. Their income can then be supplemented by taking up any further employment of their choosing, without losing their benefit. Failure to present themselves for work schemes will result in loss of payment of benefit.

Unoccupied military barracks to be used to house and cater for homeless people and to rehabilitate them.

Justice Department

Free legal aid can only be used once
Off shore high security detention center to be used for serious crime including "white collar" crime. Life sentence to mean life.

Foreign Affairs

No duplication of ambassadors - diplomatic appointments to be filled from the European Union.

Person seeking asylum will be assessed in accordance with UN charter.

Persons travelling within the European Union will be given a rate of Social
Welfare in accordance with the rate applicable in their countries of origin.

Health Department

All doctors working in the Health Service to be paid a salary at a maximum of €125,000 minimum payment will be €60,000 - Salary for a 40 hour week.

Public and private health care to be separate.

Medical prescriptions- charge of €10.00 per prescription

Hospital stays - €20.00 per day for all adults

All medical aids - charge of €20.00

Nursing staff - employed in nursing care not doing clerical duties

Salary - Max €70,000
Min €30,000

Department of Education

Salary - Max €80,000
Min €30,000

Free education for all

Department of Environment

All fresh water to be used, stored and marketed

All wetlands and poor lands to be reclaimed and turned into grasslands- funds used for reclamation of lands.

All suitable mountain regions to be planted with forestry.

Waters from mountains rivers and streams where possible to be dammed and used for generating hydro electricity.

Vast earning for the state can be achieved by the export of water.

Harness wind and wave power from the West Coast- have a national campaign to have all dwellings solar powered.

Reclaim fishing grounds from 12 miles - 20 miles for Irish fishing exclusively.

Electrified Rail Service - cheep travel by rail for all. How this can be achieved is available by request.

Discontinuation of Green Diesel. All heating and diesel fuel expenditure can be reclaimed by all.

hfallada

If any of the above happens when I graduate Im getting the first plane of here. Setting maximum wage levels is a ridiculous concept. Yes you save money but at the same time you only attract the people who will work for X amount and not the people with skills necessary who cost more.

I do agree that lower income people need to contribute more in the form of PRSI and PAYE. The idea that we all the same welfare benefits is not in anyway logical. In Switzerland you unemployment benefit is 70% of your last wage which is gradually reduced. This results in low income people returning to work and not like in Ireland where they are often better off on benefit.

ArmaniJeanss

PADDY FLYNN wrote: »

Government: New Establishment.
1. Governor
2. Vice Governor
3. Senators - 27 in number plus 1 chairperson
4. Mayors - 26 in number ( one for each county )

Why do so many such bizarre proposals embrace the county system?
It's vastly differing populations make it barely usable for GAA sports, how crazy would we have to be to consider running an entire country on that principle?

beeno67

PADDY FLYNN wrote: »

To whom this may concern

I would like to put forward my suggestions on how I feel our state should be governed. I would appreciate hearing the opinions of others and hopefully get some feedback on same.

To quote the words of Abraham Lincoln we should have "A government for the people by the people" and all the elected representatives should be accountable to the electorate.

Government: New Establishment.
1. Governor
2. Vice Governor
3. Senators - 27 in number plus 1 chairperson
4. Mayors - 26 in number ( one for each county )
Department secretaries to be appointed by the incoming governor.

Secretaries to be totally responsible for their departments and answerable to the governor and the senate.

The Attorney General to be appointed by the governor and senate, other appointments by the governor and senate: governor of central bank, chief medical officer, garda commissioner and chief of staff for the defence forces

- salaries to range from max €200,000 to minimum of €100,000.

No pension for any political appointment for one term.

Public and civil servants - 50% of salary after 31 years of service.

All expenses incurred will be paid on production of receipt of same.

Free public transport to be used where available. Staff cars to be used if public transport not available

Revenue

PRSI on all incomes at 10%

All salaries 5% pension contributions

Income Tax Bands:-
15,000 Rate of 5%
20,000 " " 10%
30,000 " " 15%
40,000 " " 20%
50,000 " " 25%
60,000 " " 30%
70,000 " " 35%
75,000 + " " 45%

All lands to be taxed at €20.00 per acre P.A vat to remain the same

Social Welfare Departments

Social welfare recipients to do 1 hours work for every €10.00, i.e. approx 18 hours per week. Their income can then be supplemented by taking up any further employment of their choosing, without losing their benefit. Failure to present themselves for work schemes will result in loss of payment of benefit.

Unoccupied military barracks to be used to house and cater for homeless people and to rehabilitate them.

Justice Department

Free legal aid can only be used once
Off shore high security detention center to be used for serious crime including "white collar" crime. Life sentence to mean life.

Foreign Affairs

No duplication of ambassadors - diplomatic appointments to be filled from the European Union.

Person seeking asylum will be assessed in accordance with UN charter.

Persons travelling within the European Union will be given a rate of Social
Welfare in accordance with the rate applicable in their countries of origin.

Health Department

All doctors working in the Health Service to be paid a salary at a maximum of €125,000 minimum payment will be €60,000 - Salary for a 40 hour week.

Public and private health care to be separate.

Medical prescriptions- charge of €10.00 per prescription

Hospital stays - €20.00 per day for all adults

All medical aids - charge of €20.00

Nursing staff - employed in nursing care not doing clerical duties

Salary - Max €70,000
Min €30,000

Department of Education

Salary - Max €80,000
Min €30,000

Free education for all

Department of Environment

All fresh water to be used, stored and marketed

All wetlands and poor lands to be reclaimed and turned into grasslands- funds used for reclamation of lands.

All suitable mountain regions to be planted with forestry.

Waters from mountains rivers and streams where possible to be dammed and used for generating hydro electricity.

Vast earning for the state can be achieved by the export of water.

Harness wind and wave power from the West Coast- have a national campaign to have all dwellings solar powered.

Reclaim fishing grounds from 12 miles - 20 miles for Irish fishing exclusively.

Electrified Rail Service - cheep travel by rail for all. How this can be achieved is available by request.

Discontinuation of Green Diesel. All heating and diesel fuel expenditure can be reclaimed by all.

All a load of nonsense really. Is anything costed?

AlekSmart

beeno67 wrote: »

All a load of nonsense really. Is anything costed?

A question which could be equally posed of our Governments over the past two decades,where most of the "Costings" tended to be done on the back of a convienent envelope.

The OP's nonsense quotient is no better or worse than that which Official Ireland operated by for decades,with the active connivance of its adult electorate.

JP 1800

The best way to enact a change is to become more involved, albeit in the community or politics itself, we as a people need to become more mature about how and whom we elect. I find that we Irish can be a contrary at times but do not act upon it. There are some nice sentiments in the OPs post but as stated a lot of the suggestions would never work or be impractical from a financial or social perspective.

"I do agree that lower income people need to contribute more in the form of PRSI and PAYE. The idea that we all the same welfare benefits is not in anyway logical. In Switzerland you unemployment benefit is 70% of your last wage which is gradually reduced. This results in low income people returning to work and not like in Ireland where they are often better off on benefit."

I totally agree with the above statement and believe that we need a true social insurance scheme.

hfallada

Like I told a group of Germans everyone gets the same pension regardless of how much they pay in PRSI and they asked to repeat what I had said as they couldnt believe what they were hearing. In a few decades Ireland will have a huge social welfare deficit unless people start to contribute more in PRSI and the PRSI is saved for future generations and not spent now when a majority of the population is still young

Lbeard

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why do so many such bizarre proposals embrace the county system?
It's vastly differing populations make it barely usable for GAA sports, how crazy would we have to be to consider running an entire country on that principle?

Because the mindset of the scheme creator has a bockety rural GAA plan in mind. Jobs for the boys. Digging holes, and traffic calming measures down boreens that only see traffic when a tourist gets lost. Big manly 4x4s and manly men walking around in wellington boots. And of course, improvements for the local GAA facilities. This is one of the reasons Fianna Fail are still so popular in rural areas.

I'm only surprised there isn't a spot for the local parish priest in the plan. I'm sure he'd make an appearance. Blessing traffic calming measures and new practice fields for the local GAA.

Lbeard

hfallada wrote: »

I do agree that lower income people need to contribute more in the form of PRSI and PAYE. The idea that we all the same welfare benefits is not in anyway logical. In Switzerland you unemployment benefit is 70% of your last wage which is gradually reduced. This results in low income people returning to work and not like in Ireland where they are often better off on benefit.

The previous income indexed social welfare system has been gotten rid of in most countries (Germany had it up to a few years ago). Because people who were previously on high incomes, would not take low income jobs. If you were earning 40K, on a 70% system you would be getting 31k in social welfare. You would not take a job stacking shelves in a super market would you?

I had a friend who was a Swiss banker. I asked him why do people who work in financial services have such strange and unreal notions about economics. He said because they live in La La land. They're in a complete fantasy world.

Low waged people are on such low wages it does not allow them to save for retirement. Wing nuts seem to expect that they should live on fresh air, and the dignity of work, and then conveniently die. At current interest rates it would take 1,000,000 to pay an annuity of 20k. How is a low waged person to save that much money if it's more than they could earn in a life time?

How pensions work. People in their working lives create wealth - acceptance of lower wages (competivity, and flexibility) are an essential component, especially in a globalised economy. Then those they paid to educate and feed, when they were too young to do so for themselves, look after them in their old age. Expecting a low waged person to fund their own retirement is as stupid as expecting a baby to work for its' food and care. StOoPud.

We're currently screwed because of all the rocket scientists in the financial services are ultimately stupid.

All money is debt. It's a very complex system but, when people are given pocket money as children, the complexity vanishes, giving an illusion that money is something that can be accumulated and possessed. The childish mind thinks that if everyone saved as many pennies for their retirement as they could - living on bread an water in the meantime. It would not work at all. It's the stupidity of child. The times I've heard misers, griping about how they scrimped and saved for their retirement while everyone else lavishly spent their money, if doesn't cross the misers mind that without the spenders they would have had nothing to save.

Funding pensions for the future is not getting people to contribute more money to a pension fund. All will happen will be the spivs and parasites in the pension industry - who create nothing in their warm and comfortable offices - taking the cash, and splurging on real world goods for themselves. After they've taken their cut, what's left of the money they've been entrusted will just be placed in financial schemes, where it will be placed in other financial schemes, and ultimately squandered on office blocks and ghost estates, and other inefficiencies.

To fund pensions is to do with demographics and the distribution of money in the economy. Young people should be able to afford to have children, and spend on themselves and their children. It's the only sustainable way of doing this. Misers are essentially free loaders.

macraignil

The environmental policy sounds a bit rough on the natural environment. If we don't allow some water to flow there would be massive loss of wildlife habitats and problems with existing water supply schemes and sewage. To turn our wetlands into grassland would also destroy some valuable natural areas that could give a much better economic return if developed to promote tourism. Wave power and many hydroelectric power schemes are expensive for the amount of energy they produce and the requirement under current environmental impact legislation to provide detailed reports on such developments adds to the cost. The free electric rail for the country sounds great. Will it cost more than the lewis in Dublin? Not sure many businesses would be happy to loose the green diesel fuel discount or if "All heating and diesel fuel expenditure can be reclaimed by all. " is possible?

JP 1800

Lbeard wrote: »

The previous income indexed social welfare system has been gotten rid of in most countries (Germany had it up to a few years ago). Because people who were previously on high incomes, would not take low income jobs. If you were earning 40K, on a 70% system you would be getting 31k in social welfare. You would not take a job stacking shelves in a super market would you?

No one in their right mind would advocate an indefinite receipt of welfare as a percentage of ones previous wage, the system has a set time period as it can be fairly assumed that those on a higher wage would have a higher monthly outgoing. This system allows for those individuals to continue to service their financial responsibilities for a few months while seeking suitable employment or coming to alternative arrangements.

Lbeard

JP 1800 wrote: »

No one in their right mind would advocate an indefinite receipt of welfare as a percentage of ones previous wage, the system has a set time period as it can be fairly assumed that those on a higher wage would have a higher monthly outgoing.

What are you saying? That because better off people are used to having money for nice cars, houses, etc, and poor people are not, then it's only fair they're given more. What else do you want?.....A separate dole office so the upper classes don't have to mix with the low.

Let's be straight about this. The vast majority of people on high wages in Ireland, outside of the especially skilled, are in their jobs due to nepotism and discrimination. This is the way it works in every country.

This system allows for those individuals to continue to service their financial responsibilities for a few months while seeking suitable employment or coming to alternative arrangements.

It's one of these things that sounds wonderful in practice - an indeed to a certain extent very fair. And I have been in the position where I have gone from earning a good wage to nada in rapid order.

The tragic reality; people are rational actors and will abuse the system. In Germany, people were gaming it. Get a job, wait until you had qualified for the higher welfare, and then get fired. The higher benefits eventually timed out, though they could be stretched for years. People seriously gaming the system, would live frugally, saving their benefit for the leaner years when it was reduced. Then after a very long period they would return to work. The German's radically overhauled the system a few years ago, now it's more like the Irish system.

In some states in America they have the link, and people do abuse it. (Some American states have a much cushier system than ours.) People will work, get to the point they qualify for higher welfare, and then get themselves fired.

There is a big problem in Ireland. The health board have cut, and now tightly limit rent allowance, I've known a few people who've literally lost the roof over their heads after losing their jobs. And there's about ten new people sleeping rough on the streets of Dublin every week. But it wasn't just cut backs to save money. Many landlords around the country were gaming the system. Charging well in excess of the local market rates because they could get away with it.

Indexing social welfare to previous wages would be great if people would not abuse it. But it is abused everywhere.

JP 1800

Lbeard wrote: »

What are you saying? That because better off people are used to having money for nice cars, houses, etc, and poor people are not, then it's only fair they're given more. What else do you want?.....A separate dole office so the upper classes don't have to mix with the low.

You are turning a logical argument into an emotional one, it is nothing to do with those better off being used to having money but that those who paid more into a system like any other insurance scheme would expect to get a proportional return. With regards to having a higher outgoing the majority of rational people live within their means, some have higher means than others thus their outgoing vary accordingly. By the way I personally do not believe we have a class system in this country just a perceived one.

Markcheese

A fabulous post worthy of Mao and his great leaps forward , and if we lose only 1/4 of the population it'll be a small price to pay ...

SCOOP 64

The social welfare bit ,so if i do 40hrs a week , €400 a week,kind like a job. i would be happy with that.

jester77

Lbeard wrote: »

The previous income indexed social welfare system has been gotten rid of in most countries (Germany had it up to a few years ago). Because people who were previously on high incomes, would not take low income jobs. If you were earning 40K, on a 70% system you would be getting 31k in social welfare. You would not take a job stacking shelves in a super market would you?

Germany still have that system, all they did was lower the amount of time one could claim benefits. It is now set at roughly 66% of last income for previous 12 months for 12 months. After that you have to qualify for Hartz IV. This means you have to first liquidate any assets and use up savings before you will get any more help. If you are living in a house that is deemed too large then you have to sell or move out. Only then you are entitled to Hartz IV, roughly 400 a month, plus accommodation somewhere that meets their strict criteria in terms of price and size.

JP 1800

Markcheese wrote: »

A fabulous post worthy of Mao and his great leaps forward , and if we lose only 1/4 of the population it'll be a small price to pay ...

Wow I have been called a few things but communist shows how little understanding you have in my posts. I am not saying that all animals are equal but some are more equal than others, I am advocating a system that is fair to all, the more you put in the more you can receive if needed. I believe in a meritocratic society.

Lbeard

JP 1800 wrote: »

You are turning a logical argument into an emotional one, it is nothing to do with those better off being used to having money but that those who paid more into a system like any other insurance scheme would expect to get a proportional return.

Your argument is not logical. It's making an appeal on the basis of what you believe to be fair. It's not how it works at all.

A couple of private insurance companies have tried selling employment insurance. The operations usually go belly up for one reason or another. Mostly due to the fact people who know they're on track to getting fired, or people with the intention of gaming take out the policies. But they're scams anyway.

With regards to having a higher outgoing the majority of rational people live within their means, some have higher means than others thus their outgoing vary accordingly.

Rational just means having a reason. That lump, (I can't remember his name, and I'm going to bother looking it up), who got the admin job in UCC with the huge wage. To justify the criticism of his high wage, he said now that he had a bigger job he needed a bigger house. And this is why people during the boom bought houses that stretched their income to breaking point. They had to show they were big men and big women, so as to be worthy of their wages. If you want to be a big manager, you must live in a house fit for a manager, and drive a car fit for a manager. In one sense it's not rational to spend more money than you need, but in another if you need to spend that money to keep your job or get promoted, then you need to.

By the way I personally do not believe we have a class system in this country just a perceived one.

Ireland is a class ridden society. If you can't see it you have blinkers on, or you're being dishonest with yourself. Or are you one of these middle-class people who says "we don't discriminate on the basis of age, race, or class.........just on personality".

It can be hard to believe we do have a class system, because the upper classes tend to be so scaldy and generally thick as planks. But we do.

zielarz

Forget about indexing, I have a better proposal: you can't take more than you paid into the system. Fair and simple.

Lbeard

zielarz wrote: »

Forget about indexing, I have a better proposal: you can't take more than you paid into the system. Fair and simple.

So we shouldn't let children go to school unless they've worked a few years and paid taxes

Fair and simple.

Simple indeed.

JP 1800

Lbeard wrote: »

Your argument is not logical. It's making an appeal on the basis of what you believe to be fair. It's not how it works at all

Well that's how it works in Germany and other European countries as a point of fact therefore logical point.

Lbeard wrote: »

A couple of private insurance companies have tried selling employment insurance. The operations usually go belly up for one reason or another. Mostly due to the fact people who know they're on track to getting fired, or people with the intention of gaming take out the policies. But they're scams anyway.

That would be the insurance companies downfall for not taking prudent measures to ensure that this situation can not arise. I cannot believe that some one would work for years to build up a good remuneration package and then throw it all away to receive a smaller compensation.

Lbeard wrote: »

Rational just means having a reason. That lump, (I can't remember his name, and I'm going to bother looking it up), who got the admin job in UCC with the huge wage. To justify the criticism of his high wage, he said now that he had a bigger job he needed a bigger house. And this is why people during the boom bought houses that stretched their income to breaking point. They had to show they were big men and big women, so as to be worthy of their wages. If you want to be a big manager, you must live in a house fit for a manager, and drive a car fit for a manager. In one sense it's not rational to spend more money than you need, but in another if you need to spend that money to keep your job or get promoted, then you need to.

I can see you are aggrieved, particularly with some aspects of the Celtic bubble period and I will mostly agree with your sentiment.

Lbeard wrote: »

Ireland is a class ridden society. If you can't see it you have blinkers on, or you're being dishonest with yourself. Or are you one of these middle-class people who says "we don't discriminate on the basis of age, race, or class.........just on personality".

It can be hard to believe we do have a class system, because the upper classes tend to be so scaldy and generally thick as planks. But we do.

You are outlining the inequalities in society in general and defining it as the class system while the crux of my initial point was the inequalities with our current welfare system. I am not trying to single you out, you make very compelling points which is in the spirit of any forum.

respectfully
JP

JP 1800

zielarz wrote: »

Forget about indexing, I have a better proposal: you can't take more than you paid into the system. Fair and simple.

The whole idea of the indexing system is that you cannot take more out than you put in.

JP 1800

Lbeard wrote: »

So we shouldn't let children go to school unless they've worked a few years and paid taxes

Fair and simple.

Simple indeed.

We invest in our children so they have the best possibility of paying taxes in the future. Who do you think will be looking after our sorry asses in the future.

FreudianSlippers

Jeebus. That income tax proposal is insanely high. 45% at 75k FML

djpbarry

Lbeard wrote: »

Let's be straight about this. The vast majority of people on high wages in Ireland, outside of the especially skilled, are in their jobs due to nepotism and discrimination.

Yeah, it’s not like anyone gets anywhere with hard work, is it?

Lbeard wrote: »

Ireland is a class ridden society.

It really isn’t. It’s comparatively easy for someone from a disadvantaged background to work their way up the social strata in Ireland, relative to the UK for example.

Zubeneschamali

PADDY FLYNN wrote: »

All wetlands and poor lands to be reclaimed and turned into grasslands- funds used for reclamation of lands.

Wow, back to the 1930s "drain the Shannon" Devalera nonsense.

Geuze

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Jeebus. That income tax proposal is insanely high. 45% at 75k FML

Note that the proposed income tax rate is lower than the current regime.

Currently, after about 35k, the marginal tax rate is 52%.

Lbeard

JP 1800 wrote: »

That would be the insurance companies downfall for not taking prudent measures to ensure that this situation can not arise. I cannot believe that some one would work for years to build up a good remuneration package and then throw it all away to receive a smaller compensation.

People walk out on good paying jobs all the time. There are lots of reasons for doing so. You could have a better one lined up. You might know your job is about to be finished. You could intend starting your own business.

It's not like a car crash. An insurance company can calculate the statistical likelihood of you having a car crash. They can even calculate the level of fraud. Job losses are something else.

The SI in PRSI stands for social insurance - it is a form of insurance. American companies want social security privatized. So they can gouge it.

Lbeard

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, it’s not like anyone gets anywhere with hard work, is it?

Oh here we go again with the herd werk. All those eejits given cash to build ghost estates and speculate on Romanian holiday apartments, were lent the money on the basis of their social class - not that the schemes ever made sense, because they didn't. The higher in the social hierarchy the more money they were lent.

Herd werk.

Werk is for the werking classes. Have you ever seen a human resource manager do a days work?.....neither have they.

It really isn’t. It’s comparatively easy for someone from a disadvantaged background to work their way up the social strata in Ireland, relative to the UK for example.

Oh please. The social strata in Ireland means that people with no aptitudes or competence get high paying jobs, where other people do the actual work.

I could tell you similar stories, but at a friends work place, a big IT job was coming up - 70k - plenty of people capable of doing the job. The company gave the job to a builder, with no IT experience. But he was of the right class - someone who deserved the money, though a comedown from what he was earning before he ran bildin company into the ground. Now, I know a lot more stories like that, and I could go into detail but that would identify the companies.

That's how the class system in Ireland really works. These guys, many don't even bother going to college, why bother. They just look at the jobs paying 70 - 80 grand, go "I'll have that", and a lot of the time they'll get it. They make excellent manijars.. (that was sarcasm)



End of the class rant.....can we get back to the five year plan

zielarz

Lbeard wrote: »

So we shouldn't let children go to school unless they've worked a few years and paid taxes

Fair and simple.

Simple indeed.

I thought that parents pay for schools through taxes.

Markcheese

Does the 5 year plan involve making the masses make their own shovels,then drain the Shannon, feeding themselves with the crops that will be grown on these soon fertile plans, as an aside their corpses will fertilise the crops, and with the all the old, sick and unruly dying in the ditches, the hospitals will be empty...!! Viva la revaloution

Markcheese

Back to the class rant... There may be a political class, a legal class and a medical class ,(but even those are fairly fluid) ... Builders definitely had/have political ear but most weren't born into the establishment... Most of the former (paper) billionaires that are now struggling to get by on a mere couple of hundred grand a year, started out with a tractor or a Honda 50 and not much else..

Lbeard

zielarz wrote: »

I thought that parents pay for schools through taxes.

No. Everyone who makes use of the education pays for the education.

Would the multinationals be here if they didn't have people who could read and write to work for them?

zielarz

Lbeard wrote: »

No. Everyone who makes use of the education pays for the education.

Would the multinationals be here if they didn't have people who could read and write to work for them?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

djpbarry

Lbeard wrote: »

Oh here we go again with the herd werk. All those eejits given cash to build ghost estates and speculate on Romanian holiday apartments, were lent the money on the basis of their social class...

I really doubt that a high proportion of builders come from “upper” social classes.

Lbeard wrote: »

Oh please. The social strata in Ireland means that people with no aptitudes or competence get high paying jobs, where other people do the actual work.

Yes, of course. Nobody ever gets promoted in Ireland, do they? No such thing as working your way up, is there?

Lbeard wrote: »

That's how the class system in Ireland really works. These guys, many don't even bother going to college, why bother. They just look at the jobs paying 70 - 80 grand, go "I'll have that", and a lot of the time they'll get it.

So all those guys working for Google have absolutely no experience in software development? No degrees in computer science or mathematics?

Lbeard

djpbarry wrote: »

I really doubt that a high proportion of builders come from “upper” social classes.

Where the money is you'll find the upper class. Many people in Ireland have a concept of upper class being someone who reads French poetry in their spare time, speaks with a pompous accent, etc. This is not so. The Irish upper class are scaldy and generally ignorant. And the people reading French poetry in their spare time are generally from a lower socioeconomic group - wannabees, who think a little self improvement will help them out in life - it doesn't.

And yes, a lot of upper class men like to talk like roughty toughties.

Yes, of course. Nobody ever gets promoted in Ireland, do they? No such thing as working your way up, is there?

Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.

So all those guys working for Google have absolutely no experience in software development? No degrees in computer science or mathematics?

Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people. And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

In terms of earnings, only if you have a specific difficult to learn hard skill that is in demand can you cross the class barrier (but they won't like you for it - the one thing they loath is parvenus). In general you are paid in line with your class. This why someone who is very highly skilled in IT, maths, whatever, will have a idiot who has trouble switching on their lap top "manijing" them.

Can we please stop talking about class

Godge

Lbeard wrote: »

. And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?

Lbeard

Godge wrote: »

How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?

Google's core product has not changed in a decade. The reason for their success was KISS (keep it simple, stupid). They monopolised the search market, and online advertising. because the other search engines (which there were lots of, and some had absurd funds to spend on development and marketing), were greedy. Before Google, if you did a search, you could be spammed with pages of sponsored links, and the sites you were looking for might not appear. Yahoo took weeks to list sites.

Google is now like any other big corporation. Big corporations like to hire stupid people. It's to do with everyone getting on with each other. Really bright people make average people feel stupid and unhappy - it causes problems. If you don't believe me about Google - go stand outside their Dublin head quarters, you'll see the staff. They're the kind of people who walk around with their mouths open - see for yourself - they're mouth breathers.

djpbarry

Lbeard wrote: »

Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.

No, I obviously mean "workers" being promoted into managerial positions, or starting their own businesses. I suppose this doesn't happen in Ireland?

Lbeard wrote: »

Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people.

No they're not, but feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

Lbeard wrote: »

And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

Is it indeed. So a bunch of "not very intelligent" designed and implemented one of the world's most popular search engines, one of the world's most popular web mapping services and one of the world's most popular operating systems for mobile devices, among other things?

Scofflaw

Lbeard wrote: »

Where the money is you'll find the upper class. Many people in Ireland have a concept of upper class being someone who reads French poetry in their spare time, speaks with a pompous accent, etc. This is not so. The Irish upper class are scaldy and generally ignorant. And the people reading French poetry in their spare time are generally from a lower socioeconomic group - wannabees, who think a little self improvement will help them out in life - it doesn't.

And yes, a lot of upper class men like to talk like roughty toughties.



Work your way up? Do you mean learn to drink tea from fine bone China, pinky finger aloft, and not slurp from the saucer.





Most of Google's staff in Dublin are sales and sales support people. And Google has a policy of employing people who are not very intelligent. That's a corporate policy.

In terms of earnings, only if you have a specific difficult to learn hard skill that is in demand can you cross the class barrier (but they won't like you for it - the one thing they loath is parvenus). In general you are paid in line with your class. This why someone who is very highly skilled in IT, maths, whatever, will have a idiot who has trouble switching on their lap top "manijing" them.

Can we please stop talking about class

That would be nice. Allow me to help settle the argument somewhat:

The wage premium for sons is particularly large in some southern European OECD countries and in the United Kingdom. In these countries, having a father with tertiary education raises a son’s earnings by 20% or more, compared to one whose father had upper-secondary education. The wage penalty of having a father with only basic education, compared to one whose father had upper-secondary education appears to be high in the same countries, as well as in the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Ireland. In these countries, the wage of a son whose father has below upper secondary education falls short by more than 16% of the wage of a son whose father has upper-secondary education.

...

The influence of a father’s education on his daughter’s wages follows a similar cross-country pattern as the one observed for men (Figure A3.1, Panel . For women, the average wage penalty of coming from a disadvantaged background is sometimes much higher than the premium of coming from an advantaged background. Women coming from disadvantaged backgrounds also face lower probabilities of being employed, as implied by the coefficients estimated in the employment selection equation (Table A3.3). Focusing on the middle-aged (35-44 years of age) cohort, there is a significant employment penalty of having a father with less than upper-second ary education, compared with having a father with upper-secondary education in Greece, Italy, Ireland, Belgium, Finland, and the United Kingdom.

...

Most intergenerational mobility studies present average measures of persistence across generations. Implicitly, it is assumed that the effect of parental background is identical over the entire wage (or income) distribution. However, it is likely that the degree of wage persistence differs along the wage distribution, as suggested by some empirical studies (e.g. Jäntti et al. 2006; Bratberg et al. 2007; Corak and Heisz 1999; Grawe 2004). Descriptive analysis based on the EU-SILC data suggests that in most European OECD countries covered by the analysis, persistence in wages (in relation to father’s education) is higher at the tails of the distribution, especially at the top percentiles (Table A3.4). Persistence at the top is relatively high for men in Portugal, Italy, Spain, Luxembourg and Finland, and in France, Ireland, Italy and Spain for women, while persistence at the bottom is particularly high for men in Denmark, Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, and in Luxembourg and Ireland for women.

Source: http://librelivre.net/read/21q4

In other words, yes, Ireland has strong inter-generational persistence of education and earning power, which is basically an indicator of limited social mobility and the existence of class. We're not the most rigid, but we're towards the top within Europe.

Anecdotal examples of people who have "made it" are not particularly useful as counterpoints, since the reason we know about them may be precisely because they're unusual. Societies in which social mobility is lower tend to pay more attention to the occasional exception - in some cases, and in some ways, this may be deliberate.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Bits_n_Bobs

The upper class are clearly the OP's intellectual inferiors. So are the idiots working in the idiot search engine thingy. The op's 5 year plan will allow the truly intelligiment (but currently downtrodden) to come to power and create a truly egalitarian dictatorship. With obvious boundaries like county lines....

Godge

Lbeard wrote: »

Google's core product has not changed in a decade. The reason for their success was KISS (keep it simple, stupid). They monopolised the search market, and online advertising. because the other search engines (which there were lots of, and some had absurd funds to spend on development and marketing), were greedy. Before Google, if you did a search, you could be spammed with pages of sponsored links, and the sites you were looking for might not appear. Yahoo took weeks to list sites.

Google is now like any other big corporation. Big corporations like to hire stupid people. It's to do with everyone getting on with each other. Really bright people make average people feel stupid and unhappy - it causes problems. If you don't believe me about Google - go stand outside their Dublin head quarters, you'll see the staff. They're the kind of people who walk around with their mouths open - see for yourself - they're mouth breathers.

Wow is all I can say.

Lbeard

I'll say something first - don't always assume someone who has a gripe or criticism regards class, has a beard, and on the wall behind them has portraits of Jim Larkin and Karl Marx.

Scofflaw wrote: »

In other words, yes, Ireland has strong inter-generational persistence of education and earning power, which is basically an indicator of limited social mobility and the existence of class.

This is a kind of sociologist making determinations about causation from co-relation and inter-relationships. To paraphrase/quote Nicholas Taleb; education is something you get when you get money. Generally not the other way around. The word Taleb in his name comes from his ancestor who made the initial family money. Taleb means scholar (just like the Afghan Taliban). His ancestor made money trading in Levant - then got the family educated. You do not have to go back a million years to a point where only a minority of people were literate. It meant that Taleb's family had access to elite education and employment. And...crucially...easy access to capital.

Central planners, informed by academics, have trained the plumbers believing the wealth would follow. Which is why Poland was really broke, with millions of unemployed plumbers.

Economic structures are very complex and nebulous. If you look at Ireland. In the 80s we were churning out really great, really hard working and bright graduates (the message they learned in childhood, was be bright or be poor - the prospect of the gallows concentrates the mind greatly). But these graduates largely found themselves unemployable, and got on the boat to England, America, Germany. At the same time, school drop outs, both physically and intellectually lazy were finding themselves in very well paid and stable jobs for semi-states, etc. This is a problem with class systems; if you're guaranteed a good life through your class and connections, you don't find yourself burdened to develop your mind or much else.

In the 90s, there was a perfect opportunity for many of the Irish graduates who would have left the country. But now again they're fleeing the country.

We're not the most rigid, but we're towards the top within Europe.

We are not the most rigid. And this is a reason we were able to develop so quickly in the last 30 to 40 years, whereas southern European countries where the rigidness is beyond a joke.

One reason Thatcher's City did so well was they let the barrow boys in (barrow as in wheel barrow - Delboy market traders - as opposed to Harrow boys (a school for those who can't quite afford Eton)). People who've had a taste of poverty can be very motivated to make money. There was a very appealing egalitarianism to Thatcher - but it also had a coked up and apocalyptic individualism to it - unleash the dogs from the Isle dogs. New York did something similar in letting used car salesmen and shakedown merchants from the Bronx in. The wiseguys once they get cash send their kids to Harvard and Yale.

I'd have to say I'm not a Thatcherite, but an aim of her project was to shatter the English class system and set the dynamic forces free that were held by it. Fine Gaeler's interpret her project differently - but they are loonies (Fine Gael go to extreme lengths to make sure the public never sees or hears the party machine - if you think the far-left have loons, you've never seen what FG have- Nigel Farage eat your heart out)

Anecdotal examples of people who have "made it" are not particularly useful as counterpoints, since the reason we know about them may be precisely because they're unusual. Societies in which social mobility is lower tend to pay more attention to the occasional exception - in some cases, and in some ways, this may be deliberate.

Yes, whenever David Cameron is accused of loading his cabinet and advisors with old Etonians, he holds up the fact that one member of the cabinet is a former miner.

ezra_pound

Good Deal for civil servants. Pension after 31 years down from 40.
Nice!
What are your senators meant to do?
Any changes to the Dail?

323

Idiot!

PRSI on all incomes at 10%

75,000 + " " 45%

Usual waffle one sees here all too regularly. Sure, lets discourage anyone from showing a bit of ambition and initiative.
Work hard..., so we can take it from you and knock your income back to below the level of the dole (without the benefits of the dole).

FreudianSlippers

Geuze wrote: »

Note that the proposed income tax rate is lower than the current regime.

Currently, after about 35k, the marginal tax rate is 52%.

OP wasn't referring to marginal tax rates AFAIK, I could be wrong but it would make anyone earning over 75k pay a marginal tax of close to 70%

Lbeard

Godge wrote: »

How come Google's policy of employing people who are not very intelligent has led to them being one of the most successful companies in the last ten years?

The most successful indigenous companies in the last decade where builders.

Before the crash everyone was calling them geniuses.


Coca Cola is the most successful soft drinks company in the world. Is it because they have more intelligent staff than Pepsi or Dr Pepper?.....Or are there a multitude of different reasons.

Lbeard

djpbarry wrote: »

No they're not, but feel free to demonstrate otherwise.

Ask a corporate human resource manager, which is more important; fitting in, or being very intelligent.

Big companies hire very average people, because average people get on with average people. Google have the luxury of lots of cash, and a large population eager to work for them. So they can hire below average people.

The brightest people I have ever known were technies. But you'll find very few of the really bright ones working for large companies.

Bits_n_Bobs

Can we substitute 'upper class' with 'civil servants' and get back to a rational normal civil service bashing type debate? This talk of intelligent people and where they might be working is just weird....

PADDY FLYNN

Thank you so much for your view. I am very pleased that you agree with some of my suggestions but regarding the salaries paid to public servants, for a state with a population of 4.5million people, with only 1.5 million working in the public sector. As people we have relied on our college academics to run our country with the past 35 years.

Someone once said that if we paid peanuts that we get monkeys. We have paid with platinum and we have ended up with donkeys.

We have layers of politicians from TD'S to senators who at this present time cannot seem to even organise a piss up in a brewery.

We have highly paid secretaries in each department , with Hugh salaries and pension schemes. These secretaries as far as I am concerned Seem to be totally un interested in what it costs to run the department.

Every department has a Jnr minster and a minister , with even less interested to what it costs to run the department. Opposition party's seem to be totally incompetent as they seem to be asking for more.

That is why we are back again to the 50's, 60's, 70's 80's 90,s and 2000. Young people having to emigrate.

I have no problem with the private sector and what people earn in it as long as they pay their taxes and there will be no change if you the young people do not stand up and insist on change . You are the people of tomorrow.

I will be very grateful for any other suggestions, comments or costing and again I would like to thank you all for your response on the issues I have raised.

ardmacha

I am very pleased that you agree with some of my suggestions but regarding the salaries paid to public servants, for a state with a population of 4.5million people, with only 1.5 million working in the public sector.

I think you've got the latter figure wrong, maybe you put the decimal point in the wrong place.

We have paid with platinum and we have ended up with donkeys.

Some times we got racehorses and sometimes we got donkeys. The problem was that no effort is made to distinguish which is which. Despite the "crisis", this is still the case and people are happy with that.

As people we have relied on our college academics to run our country with the past 35 years.

If only. Instead they only send for these people (Patrick Honihan, Niamh Brennan etc) to clean up when someone else has f***ed up bigtime.