‘Ministers should be allowed take spouses on foreign trips’ – McGuinness

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

McGuinness wont be going anywhere, so expect the orchestrated campaign to oust him to continue.

Is there anyone with any integrity on FF that can take his place.

Until then we better order some more Kittensoft .

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

Is there anyone with any integrity on FF that can take his place.

Until then we better order some more Kittensoft .

McGuiness is doing a fantastic job as chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, something which government TD's have even been quick to highlight. I think he is possibly one of the best TD's in Dáil Éireann, let alone Fianna Fáil, to hold the position.

Mickah

Is it possible Senior Civil Servants are pointing the Indo at these FOIs in relation to JMcG?

He's the only politician with the balls to actually name senior civil servants as being a big part of the problem when it comes to how this country governs itself.

Sierra Oscar

Mickah wrote: »

Is it possible Senior Civil Servants are pointing the Indo at these FOIs in relation to JMcG?

He's the only politician with the balls to actually name senior civil servants as being a big part of the problem when it comes to how this country governs itself.

That is something that McGuinness himself suspects. His determination to hold an in depth and comprehensive banking inquiry has also ruffled a lot of feathers within the higher echelons of the civil service.

Why The Witchunt?

One thing is for sure - TD's are watching this one closely. If McGuinness is continually hounded by the Independent then there will be few as willing to push the need for a banking inquiry as strongly as he did.

The question is, why is Fiach Kelly so involved in this? Is it just that he is a poor journalist who is naive enough to sling ****e on behalf of others, or is there more to it?

Cody Pomeray

I'd say it's nothing more than a clamour for the front page. He knows it's a non-story on balance, but it's journalistic opportunism imo.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

That is something that McGuinness himself suspects. His determination to hold an in depth and comprehensive banking inquiry has also ruffled a lot of feathers within the higher echelons of the civil service.

Why The Witchunt?

One thing is for sure - TD's are watching this one closely. If McGuinness is continually hounded by the Independent then there will be few as willing to push the need for a banking inquiry as strongly as he did.

The question is, why is Fiach Kelly so involved in this? Is it just that he is a poor journalist who is naive enough to sling ****e on behalf of others, or is there more to it?

The banking enquiry will embarrass Fianna Fail more than anyone.

Fiach Kelly is a FF hack.

He writes terrible rubbish like this http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fiach-kelly-how-fianna-fail-are-getting-it-right-29162080.html

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

The banking enquiry will embarrass Fianna Fail more than anyone.

Fiach Kelly is a FF hack.

He writes terrible rubbish like this http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fiach-kelly-how-fianna-fail-are-getting-it-right-29162080.html

I would say you are probably right there Raymon. McGuiness might prove to be too efficient if it came to a banking enquiry and one would think that FF have the most to lose? This suggests why the Indo is attempting to damage him. Any banking enquiry, showing FF in a bad light would destroy FF all over again, even before the next election. Mr McGuiness on the other hand is doing his job and no doubt looking out for himself with his electorate.

raymon

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I would say you are probably right there Raymon. McGuiness might prove to be too efficient if it came to a banking enquiry and one would think that FF have the most to lose? This suggests why the Indo is attempting to damage him. Any banking enquiry, showing FF in a bad light would destroy FF all over again, even before the next election. Mr McGuiness on the other hand is doing his job and no doubt looking out for himself with his electorate.

I'm sure FF would rather replace him with an amnesiac like Michael McGrath

For me it doesn't matter what FFer ultimately gets the position. I wouldn't trust any of them.

PRAF

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

When an employee is strongly encouraged by his or her boss to work away from home over a holiday period, there is a legitimate case to be made for the 'company' paying for his or her spouse to accompany him or her.

I agree with this. Obviously there should be checks and balances around it to prevent abuse. However, if as part of your job you are asked to spend long periods of time away from your family, I see no problem in allowing the wife go along with you every now and again. It should probably only be reserved for senior ministers and used sparingly, however, I do see a place for it.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Where did this information come from? It is not acceptable that FG-Lab are releasing work correspondence of a private and family nature. There is no legitimate public interest in this information, and it is highly inappropriate for a Government to raid the chests of the civil service for privileged information which attempts to undermine their opposition. Does this Government really want another Data Protection investigation?

I suspect (and hope) it wasn't a govt leak. I suspect he has p1ssed off quite a few civil servants and maybe some people in the press.

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

The banking enquiry will embarrass Fianna Fail more than anyone.

Fiach Kelly is a FF hack.

He writes terrible rubbish like this http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/fiach-kelly-how-fianna-fail-are-getting-it-right-29162080.html

A banking inquiry will shed light on the role of senior civil servants in bringing about the banking guarantee.

We already know the story with FF - i.e. they were sold a pup by someone, but we still don't know what senior civil servants and banking officials were involved in the process leading up to banking guarantee.

Trust me when I say that you couldn't be further off the mark with your suggestions that this is someone in FF trying to settle a score.

Also, Kelly is a journalist. He writes articles. Picking one article where he discusses FF and then trying to claim that he is some sort of FF secret agent is, quite simply, bizarre. Stop being selective, he has been really laying into FF lately - along with Sheehan.

PRAF

I think the McGuinness stories about the fancy toilet paper are pure rubbish. Bringing his wife on a trip is also rubbish IMO. The more legitimate story relates to the overtime for his son and possibly also his failure to question the overall cost of his office (although this questioning would've been unusual, particularly at the height of the celtic tiger madness). While nothing appears to be outside of the rules, it perhaps calls into question his judgement and track record.

Nevertheless, it seems obvious that there is someone trying to cut him off at the knees. To me, that is the much more interesting story. Is there another politician or a civil servant out to get him? What is their motivation? What are they trying to hide? Did they break any rules in terms of getting their hands on this information with the sole purpose of trying to get rid of John McGuinness? I suspect all of the answers to those questions are yes but we may never find out.

PRAF

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

A banking inquiry will shed light on the role of senior civil servants in bringing about the banking guarantee.

Has the banking guarantee question not already been addressed by the reports by Honohan and also by Nyberg into Ireland's Banking Crisis? Has it not already been answered on an almost daily basis by independent economists, political commentators, etc?

Don't get me wrong, I look forward to seeing Ahern, Cowen, Martin, etc hauled before the PAC to be grilled. It'll be fun to watch. Political theatre. However, I doubt we'll learn anything new.

The banking guarantee was an emergency action designed to stave off a financial and economic Armageddon scenario. There would've been no need for it if we hadn't pumped up the property market, let the banks run loose and free in a lax regulatory regime, and continually elected politicians who failed to protect our long term national interests.

A more productive inquiry might seek to address the root causes of the crisis

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

A banking inquiry will shed light on the role of senior civil servants in bringing about the banking guarantee.

We already know the story with FF - i.e. they were sold a pup by someone, but we still don't know what senior civil servants and banking officials were involved in the process leading up to banking guarantee..

There you go trying to deflect blame from FF. You sound like Michael Mc Grath .
Fianna Fail were not sold a pup. They bailed out their buddies in the banks.

A treacherous act in my opinion.

Sierra Oscar

There is another story in the Independent again tomorrow, clearly a character assassination is underway. A pity really, as I genuinely do feel that John McGuinness is one of the best performing TD's in Ireland.

PRAF wrote: »

I think the McGuinness stories about the fancy toilet paper are pure rubbish. Bringing his wife on a trip is also rubbish IMO. The more legitimate story relates to the overtime for his son and possibly also his failure to question the overall cost of his office (although this questioning would've been unusual, particularly at the height of the celtic tiger madness). While nothing appears to be outside of the rules, it perhaps calls into question his judgement and track record.

The toilet paper story and the whole office refurbishment saga was a complete fabrication. Fiach Kelly has been trying to make out that McGuinness somehow requested luxury toilet paper and a new office, and thus by extension he was living in an ivory tower.

The allegations were taken so seriously by McGuiness that he vacated the chair and called in the OPW, who were in charge of the refurbishment, to testify the events surrounding the story.

You can read the transcript of that committee meeting here.

The OPW confirmed that McGuiness had no involvement in the refurbishment process, and was not even aware that it was underway. Fiach Kelly basically just outright lied about the toilet paper too.

Let me highlight some key quotes:

Deputy Simon Harris: The issue about which there has been significant debate - if Ms McGrath is not the person to answer, she should feel free to say so - is that of ministerial involvement in these works. There have been media reports that it involved ministerial sign-off. What is Ms McGrath's understanding of the link between the then Minister of State and the OPW and the Department in carrying out these office works? There has been e-mail correspondence in national newspapers stating that X official or X individual in a ministerial office signed off on or approved this. Would that be Ms McGrath's understanding of what happens or would that not be the case?

Ms Clare McGrath: I can definitively say, from the Office of Public Works point of view, we had no contact with the Minister in question on this job. Any contact would have been with the Department. All our interactions would have been with the Department.

Deputy Gerald Nash: That means there is a significant addition to the amount. There has been some focus in recent times, not least in the media, on communication between civil servants on, for example, the type of toilet roll in the accommodation in question. I do not wish to be facetious but could Ms McGrath outline the OPW’s system for the procurement of such products?

Ms Clare McGrath: We have a janitorial supplies contract where there is a drawn down contract that Departments call on as needed for supplies. Framework contracts are drawn down in bulk and such items cost in the region of possibly less than 30 cent a roll. The supplies are available to every Department. We have no control over how things get reported.

Fiach Kelly and the Independent failed to report on these significant developments at the time, probably because the exchange highlights as to how the Independent engages in poor journalism by not checking facts. That or the Fiach Kelly is happy to just print outright lies.

PRAF wrote: »

Nevertheless, it seems obvious that there is someone trying to cut him off at the knees. To me, that is the much more interesting story. Is there another politician or a civil servant out to get him? What is their motivation?

That is definitely the puzzle. The suspicions are that certain senior servants want him gone as he is essentially putting pressure on them by doing his job well, something which politicians from all political parties knowledge.

PRAF wrote: »

Has the banking guarantee question not already been addressed by the reports by Honohan and also by Nyberg into Ireland's Banking Crisis? Has it not already been answered on an almost daily basis by independent economists, political commentators, etc?

Not really. Of course we understand the underlying economic causes of the banking crisis and the likes, but we still do not know the exact nature of events leading up to the night of the bank guarantee in 2008. We are relatively well aware of the misguided actions of political figures on the night of the banking guarantee. However we do not know how close senior civil servants were to senior figures in the banking industry, and as to whether senior civil servants were adequately performing in their various positions in the lead up to the banking collapse.

It is interesting to note that the government is now proposing to merely examine the night of the bank guarantee itself during the banking inquiry. Why do you think this is, considering both FG & Labour were stating that they would undertake a comprehensive analysis of the banking collapse once they were in government? Why the sudden change? The civil service is the answer in my view. Senior civil servants do not want to be under the spotlight in a banking inquiry.

The civil service run the country, without their co-operation a government is doomed to failure. I suspect this is closely related to the battle which took place last year regarding which entity would undertake the banking inquiry. There was a serious campaign undertaken to ensure that the Public Accounts Committee was not in charge of that inquiry, which would be chaired by McGuinness - who has been a long critic of senior civil servants. McGuinness won that battle and the PAC is set to undertake the banking inquiry, but now a character assassination of McGuinness himself is underway. Someone does not want him involved in such an inquiry at all and are passing on information to the media, and I suspect it is a group of senior civil servants who do not want their gross incompetence and complacency exposed.

raymon

I hope the chairman intends to pay back the €4,608.53 that his wife's airline ticket cost, and any other jollies that the taxpayer paid for.

What a waste of the public purse.

.

Cody Pomeray

Anyone see the fiach Kelly interview last night on Vincent Browne?

Fair play to Browne for showing some journalistic integrity on this. I can understand Kelly wanting to make a name for himself or get attention and whatever, that's the media for you. The media have to understand they aren't immune from examination, there are too many competing agendas going unchecked.

Yeeeuuuuppp

Fiach Kelly did himself no favours last night on Vincent Browne , 13 seperate pieces on John McGuinness since February is shocking . I didn't realise John McGuinness was box office , I wonder did the Indo's readership figures go up every time there was a McGuinness story . How can he justify 13 pieces ( in such a short space of time ) to his overlord/boss .
Vincent Browne was correct , this spouses on trips really is a non-issue . Someone else posted that they hoped the €4.5k (airline ticket) is paid back , really ? Given the amount of money wasted on advisers to the government someone feels that a €4.5k plane ticket must be paid back . Advisers will receive millions this year and for what ?
It's very obvious what is going on , there is a big target on the back of John McGuinness . Edna Kenny was out very quickly to suggest that FF do something about John McGuinness , afraid that he might lose some 'helpful' cs's .
The Indo is heading for Daily Star status

raymon

Yeeeuuuuppp wrote: »

Fiach Kelly did himself no favours last night on Vincent Browne , 13 seperate pieces on John McGuinness since February is shocking . I didn't realise John McGuinness was box office , I wonder did the Indo's readership figures go up every time there was a McGuinness story . How can he justify 13 pieces ( in such a short space of time ) to his overlord/boss .
Vincent Browne was correct , this spouses on trips really is a non-issue . Someone else posted that they hoped the €4.5k (airline ticket) is paid back , really ? Given the amount of money wasted on advisers to the government someone feels that a €4.5k plane ticket must be paid back . Advisers will receive millions this year and for what ?
It's very obvious what is going on , there is a big target on the back of John McGuinness . Edna Kenny was out very quickly to suggest that FF do something about John McGuinness , afraid that he might lose some 'helpful' cs's .
The Indo is heading for Daily Star status

Why shouldn't he pay it back. I don't want to be paying for Fianna Fail wives jetting away on trips.

Whatabout this and whatabout that is off topic.

PRAF

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not really. Of course we understand the underlying economic causes of the banking crisis and the likes, but we still do not know the exact nature of events leading up to the night of the bank guarantee in 2008.

...............

Someone does not want him involved in such an inquiry at all and are passing on information to the media, and I suspect it is a group of senior civil servants who do not want their gross incompetence and complacency exposed.

Good point. Your analysis seems very plausible to me. It may be a group of senior civil servants who are behind this. If so, it really is a backhanded compliment to McGuinness that they are trying to take him out like this. However, it is also extremely worrying that we may have a group of inept senior civil servants who are too cowardly, and corrupt, to have their performance scruitinised by the PAC. We're used to politicians engaging in smear campaigns but not civil servants.

PRAF

raymon wrote: »

Why shouldn't he pay it back. I don't want to be paying for Fianna Fail wives jetting away on trips.

Whatabout this and whatabout that is off topic.

If he has been found to have broken a rule, and he was not entitled to it, of course he should pay it back. That has yet to be proven howere. In fact, it seems he operated entirely within the rules that applied at the time.

This fixation with trivial expenses is a waste of time. The banking crisis has cost us tens of billions. It may well be that we have a group of inept and corrupt senior civil servants at the top who are earning huge salaries who are now trying to disrupt and distort the functioning of the Dail.

Crucifying McGuinness for trivial matters would be madness. Let him get on with his job.

raymon

He has spoken out against peoples wives going on trips.

Even in his book he complains about other figures bringing wives on trips.

I don't want to pay for this hipocrates wife to be flown around the place.

PRAF

raymon wrote: »

He has spoken out against peoples wives going on trips.

Even in his book he complains about other figures bringing wives on trips.

I don't want to pay for this hipocrates wife to be flown around the place.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your viewpoint) there is only one set of rules. They apply equally to the just, the moral, the hypocrites, and the downright liars. There is no case of a broken rule and therefore the issue of a refund does not arise.

If you want revenge, don't vote for this guy or his political party.

However, you're in danger of missing the real point here. The real point is that (potentially) there are a group of senior civil servants who are interfering in the workings of the Dail with a view to ensuring they get away scott free for their incompetence

raymon

PRAF wrote: »

If you want revenge, don't vote for this guy or his political party.

However, you're in danger of missing the real point here. The real point is that (potentially) there are a group of senior civil servants who are interfering in the workings of the Dail with a view to ensuring they get away scott free for their incompetence

I don't want revenge , I just want dishonesty to be tackled.

Your theory about senior civil servants is unlikely. It is more likely that this is Fianna Fail internal shennanigans.

lOWCOUNTRY

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

My reading of it was that FOI info was released after the information became known to the Indo. Even in relation to the FOI aspect of this, I can't say I agree that there is any public interest in releasing data of a family nature. There is an adequate FOI threshold reached when the Minister actually succeeds in taking his wife abroad at the expense of the State. But questions relating to the pair maximising their personal time together is a level of prying I'm not comfortable with.

I think most people agree that politics is not a family-friendly pursuit, and that we should try to improve that the same as we do for employees. I am sure there are many people in the FG-Lab parliamentary party - probably on the front benches too - who can completely see where McGuinness was coming from.

There are much better and less costly ways of implementing family friendly policies than having spouses go on working tours abroad. If there is a spouse it is inevitable that the civil servants will have to spend time catering for the spouse. The civil servants could end up spending more time organising the spouses agenda as they do working. What if the civil servant speaks the local language and the spouse doesn't?, a not improbable scenario. The civil servant will be pressed into acting as a translator in dealing with the hotel staff, organising bookings and negotiating with locals. No civil servant will be in a position to tell the spouse to go off and paddle their own canoe.
There are a number of defined situations in the public service where spouses can accompany each other at minimal state expense, usually to functions. That is quite sufficient.

Mr.Micro

PRAF wrote: »

Good point. Your analysis seems very plausible to me. It may be a group of senior civil servants who are behind this. If so, it really is a backhanded compliment to McGuinness that they are trying to take him out like this. However, it is also extremely worrying that we may have a group of inept senior civil servants who are too cowardly, and corrupt, to have their performance scruitinised by the PAC. We're used to politicians engaging in smear campaigns but not civil servants.

If it is the case that civil servants are behind these attacks on McGuinness then that to my mind is totally unacceptable and undemocratic. The blame for the financial collapse of the country lies with FF and the civil servants. Both may have a lot to lose if there was a banking enquiry. Where was the Indo when the crisis occurred..... Why now run with little tittle tat stories now? Clearly there is an agenda for some party or other.

Cody Pomeray

lOWCOUNTRY wrote: »

There are much better and less costly ways of implementing family friendly policies than having spouses go on working tours abroad.

Sure, if you're a public service worker, or employed by a private firm.

It's not a popular thing to say, but political careers are badly suited to a healthy family life. Public holidays are times when TDs, and moreso Ministers, do prefer to spend away from official business or constituency work.

The regulations haven't been updated since 1959 when grown men weren't supposed to take more than a passing interest in their family relationships.

I'm not saying every trip should include a spouse - far from it. But if a Minister is willing to pay for his or her spouse, or if the trip takes place over a family period, then yes I think it's acceptable that spouses travel.

take everything

Re. this being a conspiracy to nobble a banking enquiry.
Surely the crowd with most to lose from a banking enquiry are the dopes at the wheel leading up to Sep 2008 ie FF.

I don't understand why people think Enda and Co are terrified of such an enquiry.
Throwing a bone to the Indo to get Shatter off the front pages, maybe. Cynical and all as that would be.

The enquiry will probably be a toothless fudge anyway.
But a conspiracy would make more sense if FF were behind it, no?

Sierra Oscar

If anyone is interested, McGuinness is giving his statement in the Public Accounts Committee now and will thereafter respond to queries.

Oireachtas Live

take everything

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

If anyone is interested, McGuinness is giving his statement in the Public Accounts Committee now and will thereafter respond to queries.

Oireachtas Live

He's not really dealing with Harris's questions at all.
Coming across very badly.

PRAF

take everything wrote: »

Re. this being a conspiracy to nobble a banking enquiry.
Surely the crowd with most to lose from a banking enquiry are the dopes at the wheel leading up to Sep 2008 ie FF.

I don't understand why people think Enda and Co are terrified of such an enquiry.
Throwing a bone to the Indo to get Shatter off the front pages, maybe. Cynical and all as that would be.

The enquiry will probably be a toothless fudge anyway.
But a conspiracy would make more sense if FF were behind it, no?

FF do have a lot to lose, however, it would be a crazy move for them to try to nobble a banking enquiry. Most of the key players from 2007 - 2010 are gone now. Even if they do get a hammering in a banking inquiry, Martin et al could push the line that they've a new team in place now, the lessons have been learned, etc. If they are found to be interfering in the legitimate functioning of the Dail, it could be the final deathnell for FF. I doubt they'd be that stupid.

For me, it seems very likely that the leaks and tip offs about McGuinness are coming from a malicious insider in the civil service.