CAI Elevation vs ACCA

Timos

Hi, I'm doing the Accounting Technician course with ATI and I was hoping to get a training contract when I finish but I think this is unlikely so I intend to take work as an Accounting Technician and do the CAI Elevation programme or the ACCA equivalent myself.
My questions:

When I complete either of these can i then get hired as an accountant or only a trainee accountant?
If only a trainee accountant will I have to start at minimum/terribly low wage? If so, how long would I be on minimum/terribly low wage?
Also, are my employments prospects better with one over the other?
Are the much higher yearly membership fees of CAI worth it?

Any other reasons why one is better than the other are welcome.

Thanks
Timos

Prettyblack

No you wouldn't be a trainee accountant if you have the qualification, if anything you would be hired as an "accountant", or "accounts assistant", but it depends on the company. You may be hired as a management accountant, financial accountant... it just depends what you do when you train.

CAI probably gives more options with regards to what you can do - practice, industry, finance, etc etc. Seems to be more options.

CAI training firms generally pay a low salary but you get loads of time off; in industry under Elevation (like me) you get a bit more money - its not huge but it can increase dramatically when you qualify (that's the plan anyway!).

I chose CAI as it seemed to me to be more respected, had more support and better education facilities and that just suited me. Most of the people I work with are chartered accoutants so if I was doing something like ACCA I would probably be getting funny looks! :-)

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

Most of the people I work with are chartered accoutants so if I was doing something like ACCA I would probably be getting funny looks! :-)

Funny lot you work with - ACCA accountants are equally chartered. Ignorance among the public is one thing...

Timos

Do you agree on everything else besides funny looks from other accountants?
I can imagine that CAI training contract people are looked on more favourably than those who did it by Elevation. Could the same be true for CAI elevation vs ACCA (one being more favourable to employers) or is this totally unfounded?

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

Funny lot you work with - ACCA accountants are equally chartered. Ignorance among the public is one thing...

This is wrong. A "Chartered Accountant" is not an ACCA accountant - more commonly referred to as a "Certified Accountant".

Chartered means they are members of Chartered Accountants Ireland. Not ACCA, which is a different thing altogether.

Kindly check facts before inferring that I am ignorant.

Prettyblack

There's also a mistake in your guide to the different bodies (the sticky):

"Elevation Programme – A recent development from CAI (moving it closer to ACCA’s structure) in that you can study for CAI exams without being in a contract). You pay for your own study, but must eventually enter a contract and serve your time before becoming a full member."

This isn't true - you don't need to enter a contract. I'm doing Elevation, I should know! You need experience, sure; but no contract.

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

This is wrong. A "Chartered Accountant" is not an ACCA accountant - more commonly referred to as a "Certified Accountant".

Chartered means they are members of Chartered Accountants Ireland. Not ACCA, which is a different thing altogether.

Kindly check facts before inferring that I am ignorant.

It would almost be worth resigning as a mod to let rip.

You're most likely young and not in the game long, so I'll forgive yor ignorance. Instead I'll ask you two questions.

1. What does chartered mean?
2. Do you know why those qualified through CAI have the first A in their designation?

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

There's also a mistake in your guide to the different bodies (the sticky):

"Elevation Programme – A recent development from CAI (moving it closer to ACCA’s structure) in that you can study for CAI exams without being in a contract). You pay for your own study, but must eventually enter a contract and serve your time before becoming a full member."

This isn't true - you don't need to enter a contract. I'm doing Elevation, I should know! You need experience, sure; but no contract.

Keep reading... there you go. It's been covered already.

smcgiff

Timos wrote: »

Do you agree on everything else besides funny looks from other accountants?
I can imagine that CAI training contract people are looked on more favourably than those who did it by Elevation. Could the same be true for CAI elevation vs ACCA (one being more favourable to employers) or is this totally unfounded?

I'm an ACCA and a mod. I try to remain neutral among the top 4 bodies. Note the word TRY... lets see how this thread goes. I am only human afterall.

Prettyblack

I'm really not sure you are on the right track here with me. I'm reserving judgement as you are a "mod" and have untold powers, but I do know that I am right.

"Chartered"? What does that mean? Its means they are members of the body that was originally formed by Royal Charter in 1888. And the CAI is the body that represents Chartered Accountants in Ireland.

The first A? As in "associate"?

Look, you could get into how smart you think you are but you are wrong on those points - any accountant / finance person who knows anything will know that when someone refers to "chartered" they mean a "Chartered Accountant" / ACA. When they say "certifed", they mean ACCA. I know this, because I have met many.

And you don't need a contract for Elevation.

And I am not young. And I have been in the game, probably longer than you. So less of the condescending attitude please.

Prettyblack

BTW apologies Timos for the derailment of your thread. I'm not willing to get into an argument here with anyone, mod or not, so I'm happy to just leave it at that.

(Mod if you want to "let rip" you are free to PM me. I may not reply, but you can get your issues off your chest).

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm an ACCA and a mod. I try to remain neutral among the top 4 bodies. Note the word TRY... lets see how this thread goes. I am only human afterall.

Do you go around telling people you are a Chartered Accountant? (this is what you are inferring - that ACCA are "chartered" too). It may be one of the letters in the acronym, but you are not a "chartered accountant".

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

So less of the condescending attitude please.

Apologies for the condescension, it's just that you are so wrong.

Members of ACCA are "Chartered Certified Accountants". They are chartered in the same way as those chartered through CAI via grant of a british monarch.

ACCA's cannot give themselves the designation 'Chartered Accountant' because ICAS, ICAEW AND ICAI got there first. It's the same reason ICAEW and CAI members have to use ACA as their designation, because ICAS got there first - they can use just CA.

I assume you will be no less chartered in a number of years when you have to use the ACA designation.
It probably needs to be pointed out that only ACCA can use the designation "Chartered Certified Accountant".

Also, ICAEW objected to that term because it may be considered better than mere "Chartered Accountant". Luckily their objection was not entertained.

I've gone to this trouble because you referenced it being funny to train through ACCA, a much larger organisation with considerably more resources at its disposal.

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

ACCA's cannot give themselves the designation 'Chartered Accountant' because ICAS, ICAEW AND ICAI got there first. It's the same reason ICAEW and CAI members have to use ACA as their designation, because ICAS got there first - they can use just CA.

Its just semantics then - I referenced "chartered" accountants, commonly, and without the overly pedantic analysis, understood to be CAI members / ACA. Ask anyone. Honestly, go on.

ACCA are equally chartered, sure, I have no argument there. But they are not "chartered accountants" in the same way. If I say "oh hey I know a guy, he's a chartered accountant" no one is going to say "is that chartered certified or just chartered?" The understanding will be they are ACAs. Similarly, if we show up at his office and discover he's ACCA qualified, well I'll just be wrong thenm won't I?

Sorry, but ACCAs are not referred to anything else other than ACCA or certified.

smcgiff wrote: »

It probably needs to be pointed out that only ACCA can use the designation "Chartered Certified Accountant".

Good for you.

smcgiff wrote: »

I've gone to this trouble because you referenced it being funny to train through ACCA, a much larger organisation with considerably more resources at its disposal.

Hmm. Ha! *coughs* Right, well this is where we'll differ and disagree. Funny why? Because everyone around me is ACA. ACCA is sort of... not respected much around these parts.

Larger and more resources? Hmmm. How many staff are employed by ACCA in Ireland? If I had an issue with my firm or company, where would I go? Do ACCA have a regulatory board, or communications / publishing / member services / student services departments?

Do they have their own student facilities? (no) Why do they outsource their education to third party colleges? Do they have their own lecturers, retained year after year? (the best ones) Do they monitor and support trainees, in their training, or is it something you just do by yourself? Are their pass rates higher than ACAs? What is the current employment rate for qualified ACCAs in Ireland? (it is 98% for ACAs).

Can you audit abroad if you get your ACCA qualification in Ireland? Are there recognition agreements set up with other international bodies to allow you to do this? How do you do that?

Are the top 10 accountancy firms in Ireland, ACCA firms, or ACA firms?

How many ACCA members are there in Ireland? How many ACCA students are there in Ireland? There are over 6,000 ACA students in Ireland, and 21,000 ACA members - in Ireland.

Yes. I know a lot about ACA. I did my research. :-)

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

Its just semantics then - I referenced "chartered" accountants, commonly, and without the overly pedantic analysis, understood to be CAI members / ACA. Ask anyone. Honestly, go on.

ACCA are equally chartered, sure, I have no argument there. But they are not "chartered accountants" in the same way. If I say "oh hey I know a guy, he's a chartered accountant" no one is going to say "is that chartered certified or just chartered?" The understanding will be they are ACAs. Similarly, if we show up at his office and discover he's ACCA qualified, well I'll just be wrong thenm won't I?

Sorry, but ACCAs are not referred to anything else other than ACCA or certified.



Good for you.



Hmm. Ha! *coughs* Right, well this is where we'll differ and disagree. Funny why? Because everyone around me is ACA. ACCA is sort of... not respected much around these parts.

Larger and more resources? Hmmm. How many staff are employed by ACCA in Ireland? If I had an issue with my firm or company, where would I go? Do ACCA have a regulatory board, or communications / publishing / member services / student services departments?

Do they have their own student facilities? (no) Why do they outsource their education to third party colleges? Do they have their own lecturers, retained year after year? (the best ones) Do they monitor and support trainees, in their training, or is it something you just do by yourself? Are their pass rates higher than ACAs? What is the current employment rate for qualified ACCAs in Ireland? (it is 98% for ACAs).

Can you audit abroad if you get your ACCA qualification in Ireland? Are there recognition agreements set up with other international bodies to allow you to do this? How do you do that?

Are the top 10 accountancy firms in Ireland, ACCA firms, or ACA firms?

How many ACCA members are there in Ireland? How many ACCA students are there in Ireland? There are over 6,000 ACA students in Ireland, and 21,000 ACA members - in Ireland.

Yes. I know a lot about ACA. I did my research. :-)

It's not just semantics, up until you read this thread you genuinely didn't think ACCA's were chartered. You said so above. So, at least you learned something today.

Actually, similar to your mistake, if in reverse. Lots of the public refer to ACCA's as chartered accountants - you know what with the name chartered being in the title and ACCA's being chartered. The designations if anything are the semantics.

Don't you think that everyone around you being an ACA is part of your blinkered attitude?

In fact the questions you ask about ACCA after your "mmmm" show exactly how insulated you are. ACCA has a massive organisation with a full office in Ireland.

http://ireland.accaglobal.com/ through this link all your questions can be answered.

You reference CAI's own student facilities as a good thing. I'm not sure it is. With ACCA the education is through third parties. Independent third parties.

The last person I hired is a trainee CAI and they are not too impressed with CAI's learning structure. Also, look at the complaints on boards about the quality of the CAI exam papers. It's common for errors to creep in. If that happened once in an ACCA paper it would be legendary. It probably has happened, but no where near as often as it has happened in CAI papers.

I don't know what the employment level of ACCA's and their students are. But, the pass rates among ACA's have taken an enormous dip of late. Is that because CAI student's have become thick or is the CAI process not so independent in this recession we are currently going through. Coincidence?

There are recognition agreements abroad for ACCA's. As you know CAI's have to pass local legal and tax papers as well, as do ACCAs.

Yip - all the top 10 practices in Ireland are CAI. That's for a number of reasons, legacy as well as CAI concentrating on practice. It’s also meant they, through their sister organisations, have been responsible for all the major scandals that have hit our profession. ACCA has always developed both practice and industry. CAI have copied a lot of what ACCA has done recently, allowing options and creating the elevation route. ACCA has taken over as the innovation leader and the likes of CAI the followers.

In the UK ICAEW have thrown open membership to ACCA's by passing an exam they can fill in at home. They have done this because they fear ACCA's taking over. It's similar to that in Ireland. You’re wrong (again) about your membership figures (tut tut research/study more carefully in future – numbers and their context are important) it’s almost 21k CAI members globally per the IAASA 2011 report. For ACCA the equivalent number is over 151k. In Ireland it’s 8,444 members for ACCA and 13,908 for CAI. That gap has been a lot wider.

Re students (per the same report) there were 8,347 ACCA students and 5,183 CAI students based in Ireland. Globally the figures were 349,325 and 6,361 respectively. Hence my remark re resources and the benefits of scale ACCA has at its disposal.

Finally, as for ACCA not being respected in your parts… Funny, as the same can be levelled at ACA’s. Unlike you I know a lot of ACCAs and ACAs. And a lot will comment how pigeon holed (read useless) a lot of big four trained ACA’s are that get limited to, say, auditing in their training.


Switched to keyboard from phone - that's sooooooooooooo much better.

thefa

Timos, see link for more discussion comparing the two.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056931462

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

It's not just semantics, up until you read this thread you genuinely didn't think ACCA's were chartered. You said so above. So, at least you learned something today.

Actually, similar to your mistake, if in reverse. Lots of the public refer to ACCA's as chartered accountants - you know what with the name chartered being in the title and ACCA's being chartered. The designations if anything are the semantics.

Don't you think that everyone around you being an ACA is part of your blinkered attitude?

In fact the questions you ask about ACCA after your "mmmm" show exactly how insulated you are. ACCA has a massive organisation with a full office in Ireland.

http://ireland.accaglobal.com/ through this link all your questions can be answered.

You reference CAI's own student facilities as a good thing. I'm not sure it is. With ACCA the education is through third parties. Independent third parties.

The last person I hired is a trainee CAI and they are not too impressed with CAI's learning structure. Also, look at the complaints on boards about the quality of the CAI exam papers. It's common for errors to creep in. If that happened once in an ACCA paper it would be legendary. It probably has happened, but no where near as often as it has happened in CAI papers.

I don't know what the employment level of ACCA's and their students are. But, the pass rates among ACA's have taken an enormous dip of late. Is that because CAI student's have become thick or is the CAI process not so independent in this recession we are currently going through. Coincidence?

There are recognition agreements abroad for ACCA's. As you know CAI's have to pass local legal and tax papers as well, as do ACCAs.

Yip - all the top 10 practices in Ireland are CAI. That's for a number of reasons, legacy as well as CAI concentrating on practice. It’s also meant they, through their sister organisations, have been responsible for all the major scandals that have hit our profession. ACCA has always developed both practice and industry. CAI have copied a lot of what ACCA has done recently, allowing options and creating the elevation route. ACCA has taken over as the innovation leader and the likes of CAI the followers.

In the UK ICAEW have thrown open membership to ACCA's by passing an exam they can fill in at home. They have done this because they fear ACCA's taking over. It's similar to that in Ireland. You’re wrong (again) about your membership figures (tut tut research/study more carefully in future – numbers and their context are important) it’s almost 21k CAI members globally per the IAASA 2011 report. For ACCA the equivalent number is over 151k. In Ireland it’s 8,444 members for ACCA and 13,908 for CAI. That gap has been a lot wider.

Re students (per the same report) there were 8,347 ACCA students and 5,183 CAI students based in Ireland. Globally the figures were 349,325 and 6,361 respectively. Hence my remark re resources and the benefits of scale ACCA has at its disposal.

Finally, as for ACCA not being respected in your parts… Funny, as the same can be levelled at ACA’s. Unlike you I know a lot of ACCAs and ACAs. And a lot will comment how pigeon holed (read useless) a lot of big four trained ACA’s are that get limited to, say, auditing in their training.


Switched to keyboard from phone - that's sooooooooooooo much better.

Prettyblack

thefa wrote: »

Timos, see link for more discussion comparing the two.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056931462

Yes and I contributed to that thread too. Anyway the ACCA vs ACA arguement will never end; lets just say there's pros and cons to each (though I don't agree that it is a disadvantage having all the education in house - I never had a problem, have sat (and passed) plenty of exams, the lecturers are great, facilities on Pearse St are great, the online access is great, didn't have to pay for any books etc etc).

Plus I've been in to meet people from CAI and they are a great bunch of lads! :-)

Blaming the banking / financial crises on CAI isn't really right, Mod, you must admit that; I'm sure there were plenty of ACCAs who had their hand in the tills!

Oh and Mod, can you tell me (and I'm not being smart here, I genuinely want to know), how have ACCA been innovative? (again - I actually would be interested to know!)

smcgiff

That you are now sitting the Elevation programme through CAI is directly down to ACCA.

It was introduced by the ICAI to counteract the competitive advantage ACCA had with it's no barrier entry route.

You now also have options in CAI, ACCA had those for years and it was stated by one of the Big four based in Scotland at the time that they were considering a move to ACCA because of the ACCA options. They saw it as such a big advantage.

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

That you are now sitting the Elevation programme through CAI is directly down to ACCA.

It was introduced by the ICAI to counteract the competitive advantage ACCA had with it's no barrier entry route.

Or, it was introduced as a way of allowing people who weren't fresh out of college a chance to do it as they weren't able to get training contracts.

smcgiff

Prettyblack wrote: »

Or, it was introduced as a way of allowing people who weren't fresh out of college a chance to do it as they weren't able to get training contracts.

Another coincidence then :pac:

BTW, if you ever want to go teaching in secondary school then ACCA or CPA for that matter would be the better option!

Prettyblack

smcgiff wrote: »

Another coincidence then :pac:

BTW, if you ever want to go teaching in secondary school then ACCA or CPA for that matter would be the better option!

No I'm grand thanks. :-)

Timos

This is great, thanks everyone

Regarding employment prosects i always thought that CAI was more geared towards practice so im glad to hear that 65% work in industry.
What are the figures for ACCA in practice?

ACCA seems easier timewise as "thefa" said in the posted link "in ACCA exam can take between 1 and 4 at a time...and 6 months between exams"

thefa

Prettyblack wrote: »

lets just say there's pros and cons to each (though I don't agree that it is a disadvantage having all the education in house - I never had a problem, have sat (and passed) plenty of exams, the lecturers are great, facilities on Pearse St are great, the online access is great, didn't have to pay for any books etc etc).

Consistent with your habit of skewing what is said, it wasn't mentioned that having in-house education was a disadvantage but that it just ensures standardisation and not necessarily better education. I was trying to point out that your assumption that in-house education is better is just conjecture.

Timos wrote: »

Regarding employment prosects i always thought that CAI was more geared towards practice so im glad to hear that 65% work in industry.
What are the figures for ACCA in practice?

The 65% prettyblack refers to is the percentage of chartered accountants working in business and industry. This is presumably post qualification. I believe that the percentage of trainees for CAI in industry would not be so high.

Prettyblack

thefa wrote: »

Consistent with your habit of skewing what is said, it wasn't mentioned that having in-house education was a disadvantage but that it just ensures standardisation and not necessarily better education. I was trying to point out that your assumption that in-house education is better is just conjecture.

I didn't know I had a "habit of skewing" what is said. Hmm, anyway the mod was saying that it was better to be independent of the awarding body, education-wise... I took that to him saying that was better. I've had experience of both, and I prefer the in-house nature of the ACA programme.

thefa wrote: »

The 65% prettyblack refers to is the percentage of chartered accountants working in business and industry. This is presumably post qualification. I believe that the percentage of trainees for CAI in industry would not be so high.

This is correct. I was always referring to qualifieds.

thefa

Since it is referring to qualified chartered accountants, this doesn't have much bearing on original poster's position as with either qualification he/she can end up working in industry after qualifying with either if they want to work in industry.

He/she needs to think about where they see themselves gaining the experience to qualify, at what pace they want to do exams, how many exams could they handle at the same time, among other things.

Timos

Prettyblack, hi, you mentioned in the other post linked above that "CAI Elevation allows you to work wherever you want". Can you elaborate on this as I'm not sure what you mean?

Timos

thefa, you make a good new point here for me regarding "where i see myself gaining the experience to qualify". I didn't think I needed experience, it was part of my opening questions. I plan to work as an accounting technician preferably not in practice due to poorer salary expectations and do the Elevation or ACCA programme myself. I thought I would would be able to complete all exams while working as a Technician and then apply for my first Accountant job. I'm guessing this is not how it goes?

thefa

Timos wrote: »

thefa, you make a good new point here for me regarding "where i see myself gaining the experience to qualify". I didn't think I needed experience, it was part of my opening questions. I plan to work as an accounting technician preferably not in practice due to poorer salary expectations and do the Elevation or ACCA programme myself. I thought I would would be able to complete all exams while working as a Technician and then apply for my first Accountant job. I'm guessing this is not how it goes?

Hi Timos, yes to join ACCA or Elevation and to start doing exams you won't need relevant experience. All ACCA exams can be completed and up to the FAEs for the Elevation Programme. You will be doing these exams with the view to becoming qualified further down the line so my point about where you see yourself gaining the experience is looking down the road a bit to where you see yourself getting a job as a trainee.

If you see yourself applying for a lot of medium/big practice firms, then CAI Elevation might be preferable as many of these specify CAI and they are likely to give more time off when you get to doing the 4 FAEs in the one sitting. I have not heard of people doing Elevation after gaining a contract with these but imagine if you had the CAP1s completed (for example) you then continue studying the remaining exams on the standard CAI programme.

Small practices may or may not have a preference and their flexibility on study leave can vary.

If you see yourself aiming for business/industry jobs starting off where you could require a bit more flexibility than 2/4 exams per session, then ACCA may be your preference.

These are just general impressions I have of how things are in Ireland.

Timos

thefa
I had completely misunderstood the process.
So to become a chartered accountant via the Elevation programme requires exams and a training/experience period.
Assuming I pass all my exams, how many years experience do I need as a trainee accountant to achieve full chartered qualification?

Timos

thefa
So a in a traditional training contract you would do all exams at same time as experience with average time of 4yrs for arguments sake, whereas with Elevation or ACCA this could take twice that length of time as I may not be able to get any experience during the passing of all exams. That sounds like a crazy potential 8yrs?