The naming of 'dummy' teams

KevIRL

With Wexford tonight making 6 changes to the team named earlier in the week (and therefore in the match programme) this has gotten to the beyond ridiculous stage. Do managers really think there is an advantage to this kind of shennanigans? Davy Fitz did it last week with Cian Dillon and Daragh Honan, but it was so widely expected that the dogs on the street were even saying those 2 would start

IMO its unfair to the players, unfair the fans and unfair to those who pay for match programmes and the GAA should be taking steps to stop it. Perhaps introduce a measure to say that any each change to the named team means the use of one of the substitute allowance, and the player named who doesnt start cannot be used at anytime during the game

Frankie Lee

KevIRL wrote: »

With Wexford tonight making 6 changes to the team named earlier in the week (and therefore in the match programme) this has gotten to the beyond ridiculous stage. Do managers really think there is an advantage to this kind of shennanigans? Davy Fitz did it last week with Cian Dillon and Daragh Honan, but it was so widely expected that the dogs on the street were even saying those 2 would start

IMO its unfair to the players, unfair the fans and unfair to those who pay for match programmes and the GAA should be taking steps to stop it. Perhaps introduce a measure to say that any each change to the named team means the use of one of the substitute allowance, and the player named who doesnt start cannot be used at anytime during the game

Either that or scrap the naming of teams early in the week and just have the counties submit a squad numbered 1-30 for the benefit of the program with the team to be named from that squad 45 minutes before the match.

Clareman

Loughnane started it all in the 90s, when asked about it he said "if I had my way I wouldn't tell them when the match was on".

It can have a positive effect if it's a young player you don't want to make nervous by having to think about their first championship start or maybe galvanising a team by telling them the team but no one else (grasping at straws I know), otherwise I think it's a fools errand and the opposition would actually more surprised if the opposition came out as announced.

InchicoreDude

Clareman wrote: »

Loughnane started it all in the 90s, when asked about it he said "if I had my way I wouldn't tell them when the match was on".

He also brought it to very extreme lengths with Galway where there was a match and 15 minutes before the throw-in, the players did not know the team!

Also, O'Mahony had Michael Donnellan tog out and take part in the parade for Galway against Mayo one year. After parade, Donnellan ran to the subs bench. I think the logic of that was to keep Mayo guessing (it was rumoured Donnellan would play number 6 at the time).

Personally, I would name my best team and then play that team without any of those games. For me, that sends a strong signal to your OWN team that you have faith in them and believe they can win.

nice_guy80

The top teams - Kilkenny etc don't bother with that nonsense

players lose focus when they don't know where they stand and who will be playing

royaler83

I'd be fairly sure the panel would be told the correct team due to start and that the false team is put out to try get the opposition thinking, nothing about keeping young lads from getting nervous

klairondavis

It must be tough on lads who are named to start when they know that they will be a sub. They probably have people texting them and coming up to them at work or in the street congratulating them and wishing them well.

Hidalgo

royaler83 wrote: »

I'd be fairly sure the panel would be told the correct team due to start and that the false team is put out to try get the opposition thinking, nothing about keeping young lads from getting nervous

For Loughnane, it was part keep the opposition guessing, part keep pressure off lads,
One example being, in the 1997 Munster final, the team was named, a lad making his debut got about 70 phone calls between Thursday and Saturday, played Sun and was a bag of nerves,
After that the tactic of just naming a lad an hour was used to try and not have them overthink and be overawaed by the situation.

Another reason/excuse used was, if you name a lad Thursday and he looks like sh*t Sunday due to lack of sleep Sat night from nerves, is there any point in putting him out there. Better look at a lad Sunday morning to see exactly how he is.

Hidalgo

KevIRL wrote: »

With Wexford tonight making 6 changes to the team named earlier in the week (and therefore in the match programme) this has gotten to the beyond ridiculous stage. Do managers really think there is an advantage to this kind of shennanigans? Davy Fitz did it last week with Cian Dillon and Daragh Honan, but it was so widely expected that the dogs on the street were even saying those 2 would start

IMO its unfair to the players, unfair the fans and unfair to those who pay for match programmes and the GAA should be taking steps to stop it. Perhaps introduce a measure to say that any each change to the named team means the use of one of the substitute allowance, and the player named who doesnt start cannot be used at anytime during the game

Regarding fans and match programmes, I fail to see how its unfair. Last Sunday Dillon and Honan started wearing the numbers they were listed in for the match programme, surely everyone then knew who they were.

Your final point is extremely unfair on a player, him not being allowed to play any part if he's started and not used.

In days of yore it was A.N Other that would be named on the match programme.

theoneeyedman

There is a lit of bull in media over this. I've been involved in club teams ans honestly you don't know 4 or 5 days previously who is starting. County would be slightly different but there are several reasons to name a team before throw in . Lads generally would be told with.us anyway the program is just for numbers the team on the day will be different.
Journos take insult at this especially with
non top 4 teams cause they are too lazy to look at who might play where or match
up on who.
One solution might be to name the panel of 24 midweek and just use the numbers. But then how will lazy papers fill the pages....

keane2097

I think it's a bit of a stretch to turn this into a rant against "lazy papers".

Clareman

Hidalgo wrote: »

Regarding fans and match programmes, I fail to see how its unfair. Last Sunday Dillon and Honan started wearing the numbers they were listed in for the match programme, surely everyone then knew who they were.

Your final point is extremely unfair on a player, him not being allowed to play any part if he's started and not used.

In days of yore it was A.N Other that would be named on the match programme.

I just remembered playing a final wearing number 29 jersey cause the game was being videod and they hadn't named me on the team that was put through cause I was sent off in a Flannan's match and they didn't think I'd be able to play.

Dirty Dingus McGee

theoneeyedman wrote: »

There is a lit of bull in media over this. I've been involved in club teams ans honestly you don't know 4 or 5 days previously who is starting. County would be slightly different but there are several reasons to name a team before throw in . Lads generally would be told with.us anyway the program is just for numbers the team on the day will be different.
Journos take insult at this especially with
non top 4 teams cause they are too lazy to look at who might play where or match
up on who.
One solution might be to name the panel of 24 midweek and just use the numbers. But then how will lazy papers fill the pages....

100% correct.This is an issue being drummed by journalists who want to have something to base their match previews.A bit of research from them and they would have no bother knowing the vast majority of a counties starting team.

ormond lad

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

100% correct.This is an issue being drummed by journalists who want to have something to base their match previews.A bit of research from them and they would have no bother knowing the vast majority of a counties starting team.

How can you have a go at journalists??
They do research sides but when countys name sides on a Wednesday/Thursday then line out on sunday with several players not starting, starting, wearing different jersey number from what was originally named you too would be annoyed.

Hidalgo

ormond lad wrote: »

How can you have a go at journalists??
They do research sides but when countys name sides on a Wednesday/Thursday then line out on sunday with several players not starting, starting, wearing different jersey number from what was originally named you too would be annoyed.

Recently, very few wear different numbers. When Lee Chin came on last night, he was wearing 9, as listed in the programme.
The 2 changes Clare made, both Dillon and Honan wore the numbers they were listed as in the match programme. If people can't look at the list of subs, so be it.
The announcer also calls out any changes to the starting 15 before the game starts.

Naming one player at 14, and another wearing 14 can be a pain for those who may not recognise the players.
If everyone wears the number they're listed in for the match programme, for me it's a lot of hullabaloo about a small thing, the GAA has far bigger issues.

Mountainlad

nice_guy80 wrote: »

The top teams - Kilkenny etc don't bother with that nonsense

players lose focus when they don't know where they stand and who will be playing

In fairness, no manager in their right mind would name a dummy team and have his players believe it was the team up until the day of the match.

I really don't think it's that much of an issue, they where the same numbers. I don't see the benefit of it in some sense, like for Clare last weekend and indeed when Waterford played Tipp in 2011 and everyone knew what way Waterford would line out despite how they were named. It's frustrating for a supporter when you think a manager thinks they're fooling everyone, but know they're not.

The media though know where to go on this one though. They don't deserve the teams of many of the counties given the poor coverage they give them.

Hidalgo

Mountainlad wrote: »

In fairness, no manager in their right mind would name a dummy team and have his players believe it was the team up until the day of the match.

I really don't think it's that much of an issue, they where the same numbers. I don't see the benefit of it in some sense, like for Clare last weekend and indeed when Waterford played Tipp in 2011 and everyone knew what way Waterford would line out despite how they were named. It's frustrating for a supporter when you think a manager thinks they're fooling everyone, but know they're not.

The media though know where to go on this one though. They don't deserve the teams of many of the counties given the poor coverage they give them.

Dummy teams might have worked years ago before t'internet and social media and the likes.
Word will always get out, and with technology, it will spread fast.
Pretty much every Clare person travelling to Thurles last Sunday knew the actual starting 15, I'm guessing that Waterford were also in the know

Dirty Dingus McGee

ormond lad wrote: »

How can you have a go at journalists??
They do research sides but when countys name sides on a Wednesday/Thursday then line out on sunday with several players not starting, starting, wearing different jersey number from what was originally named you too would be annoyed.

I am having a go at journalists because by and large they are the ones complaining about this Martin Breheny and Eugene McGee are constantly going on about it in the indo. Every county in Ireland has about 10 to 12 players who are almost certain to start.They can base their match reviews on this and perhaps speculate on what the starting team will be.Soccer journalists seem to get on fine like this I don't see why GAA journalists can't do the same.A manager should name the team whenever it suits himself and his team not the media.Players very rarely wear a different number than the number that they have on the programme.

Fireball07

Hidalgo wrote: »

Dummy teams might have worked years ago before t'internet and social media and the likes.
Word will always get out, and with technology, it will spread fast.
Pretty much every Clare person travelling to Thurles last Sunday knew the actual starting 15, I'm guessing that Waterford were also in the know

I knew.... so I'm guessing Scully knew. :P


Dummy teams are a bit stupid...one thing I do like about John Allen.

ceegee

They should just move to a system of squad numbers for the championship, saves everyone from going through with the current farce of a team named midweek that ends up with changes made the majority of the time. Names on the jerseys would also help especially in hurling where you have to try and distinguish between 3 or 4 lads in the same colour helmet.

jordainius

This doesn't bother me at all at inter county level. However I can get a bit frustrated at club games when you get your program as you go in the gate and once the team takes to the field number 7 is up in the forwards, number 8 is at corner back and so on.

Even better is when number 20 starts at centre forward, so you assume number 11 is on the sideline, cue frustration when you see 11 up in the full forward line! So then you have to figure out what player has 20 replaced, which can take a good 15 minutes sometimes! So sometimes the first 5/10 minutes of a club game are spent figuring out just who exactly is on the pitch and in what position they are because we don't have the benefit of tv and sideline reporters and commentators to inform us of these matters straight away!

bruschi

speaking as a wexford supporter, what Liam Dunne did saturday was ridiculous. one or 2 changes maybe, but to start a team with only 2 of your first 15 playing in their named positions is just stupid. what purpose did it serve? Dublin started better than us so the element of surprise was of no use. A couple of players made their championship debut alright, but not all of them. Rossi, Waters and Quigley are regulars for the last few years but were not named to start. Its a pointless exercise that fools no one.

this isnt about journalists, this is about respect for players and supporters too.

Hidalgo

jordainius wrote: »

This doesn't bother me at all at inter county level. However I can get a bit frustrated at club games when you get your program as you go in the gate and once the team takes to the field number 7 is up in the forwards, number 8 is at corner back and so on.

Even better is when number 20 starts at centre forward, so you assume number 11 is on the sideline, cue frustration when you see 11 up in the full forward line! So then you have to figure out what player has 20 replaced, which can take a good 15 minutes sometimes! So sometimes the first 5/10 minutes of a club game are spent figuring out just who exactly is on the pitch and in what position they are because we don't have the benefit of tv and sideline reporters and commentators to inform us of these matters straight away!

I can't speak for other counties, but in my own match programmes are done up for the entire weekends championship games which is the right idea. One programme for the entire round of games.

Clubs have to submit teams in advance, often before they've finalized selection.

Surely if no. 8 is corner back, you can just look at the programme to see who he is? Not that tricky, is it that different than a positional switch after 5-10 mins where a player is under pressure and moved to another position.

So long as everyone wears the no. they're listed on the programme, I really don't see the big issue.
If John Doe is 23 and playing wing back, so long as he lines out in the no. 23 jersey and not no. 5 or 7, there shouldn't really be any mass confusion

Hidalgo

bruschi wrote: »

speaking as a wexford supporter, what Liam Dunne did saturday was ridiculous. one or 2 changes maybe, but to start a team with only 2 of your first 15 playing in their named positions is just stupid. what purpose did it serve? Dublin started better than us so the element of surprise was of no use. A couple of players made their championship debut alright, but not all of them. Rossi, Waters and Quigley are regulars for the last few years but were not named to start. Its a pointless exercise that fools no one.

this isnt about journalists, this is about respect for players and supporters too.

I'm sure the players are told in advance to pay no attention to what has been publicly named.
If Wexford had won Sat night, would Wexford supporters have been complaining, or been delighted to get a Leinster Championship win as underdogs??

premierstone

Its a sign of weakness IMO and its like admitting that the opposition is better than you and you need to resort to this skullduggery to gain an upperhand.

joebloggs32

KevIRL wrote: »

With Wexford tonight making 6 changes to the team named earlier in the week (and therefore in the match programme) this has gotten to the beyond ridiculous stage. Do managers really think there is an advantage to this kind of shennanigans? Davy Fitz did it last week with Cian Dillon and Daragh Honan, but it was so widely expected that the dogs on the street were even saying those 2 would start

IMO its unfair to the players, unfair the fans and unfair to those who pay for match programmes and the GAA should be taking steps to stop it. Perhaps introduce a measure to say that any each change to the named team means the use of one of the substitute allowance, and the player named who doesnt start cannot be used at anytime during the game

Sure they wear the number on the programme so who cares. Once the game starts players get switched anyway. Much ado about nothing

bruschi

Hidalgo wrote: »

I'm sure the players are told in advance to pay no attention to what has been publicly named.
If Wexford had won Sat night, would Wexford supporters have been complaining, or been delighted to get a Leinster Championship win as underdogs??

but thats the thing, the whole exercise of naming a dummy team would have had nothing to do with winning that game. Dublin started far better than we did, so the element of surprise of seeing 6 different players and 13 positional changes obviously didnt effect Dublin.

Of course we'd have been delighted to win, but its one of these ridiculous traits thats in the game that serves no purpose whatsoever and should be done away with.

As I said, most teams have one or 2 changes, but there is no way that Liam Dunne on the Tuesday night before the game submitted a team and then made 13 positional changes to it by the time Saturday came around.

Indie.

Liam Dunne's take on it.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/dunne-defends-dummy-line-up-and-slams-replay-venue-233758.html

premierstone

Dunne comes across as an awfull twat tbh, and he's comments about Lee Chin were a disgrace and Im sure the football people in Wexford wont let it go either.

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

Dunne comes across as an awfull twat tbh, and he's comments about Lee Chin were a disgrace and Im sure the football people in Wexford wont let it go either.

Given the announcement of the Waterford team was Tuesday, and Davy announced his team on Wednesday for the game am I right in assuming that those that said congresss approved a motion for teams to be named at the start of the weak with penalties for those that don't?

How come then, were Tipp and Kilkenny's teams named on Thursday and Friday respectively. What's the actual rule?

Because I'd have some understading for managers who have a few injury concerns and are waiting until the weekend to see if everyone is ok.

premierstone

Mountainlad wrote: »

Given the announcement of the Waterford team was Tuesday, and Davy announced his team on Wednesday for the game am I right in assuming that those that said congresss approved a motion for teams to be named at the start of the weak with penalties for those that don't?

How come then, were Tipp and Kilkenny's teams named on Thursday and Friday respectively. What's the actual rule?

Because I'd have some understading for managers who have a few injury concerns and are waiting until the weekend to see if everyone is ok.

Not sure about the rule Mountain tbh and I would agree about lads that might be trying to shake off an injury etc. but come on Dunne was clearly taking the piss on Saturday and really tbh has made a bit of a tit of himself.

Realt Dearg Sec

premierstone wrote: »

Dunne comes across as an awfull twat tbh, and he's comments about Lee Chin were a disgrace and Im sure the football people in Wexford wont let it go either.

What did he say about Lee Chin?

Mountainlad

premierstone wrote: »

Not sure about the rule Mountain tbh and I would agree about lads that might be trying to shake off an injury etc. but come on Dunne was clearly taking the piss on Saturday and really tbh has made a bit of a tit of himself.

Yeah I guess so. Dunno what to make of his comments, the most baffling part of it to me was where he was calling for Croke Park, and then added "Then again if they do put it on in Croke Park and we go up there and get hammered I’ll probably be sorry I said that".

That thought shouldn't be entering his head, never mind be attributed to him as a quote in the national media for all his players to read.

bruschi

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

What did he say about Lee Chin?

that he should concentrate on being a top class hurler instead of an average footballer.

whilst I myself think Chin is a better hurler, its not Dunnes place to go around saying things like that about the lad.

Thinkstoomuch

premierstone wrote: »

Not sure about the rule Mountain tbh and I would agree about lads that might be trying to shake off an injury etc. but come on Dunne was clearly taking the piss on Saturday and really tbh has made a bit of a tit of himself.

Dunne was taking the piss and its a joke to be honest but in fairness he is not doing anything that Counihan has not been doing with the Cork Footballers for years.And it is clear as day,Cork have not got any extra advantage from it the last few years.

It annoys a lot of Cork fans,more so when he has not in the past reacted on the field to players being outplayed ,and has not made the correct changes during a game and Cork have lost crucial games as a result.
Yet he seems to think by naming a Dummy team,is shrewd tactics.

Also the fact he has been doing it now for so long,people have a fair idea who will actually start come throw in.Yet he still contuines it.What really pissed me off though,was the fact he named Cadogan to start against Limerick.
Everyone knew he was injured,so why name him.

Yes Dunne has taken it to another level,and the GAA should do something about it.

It is a load of nonense,thinking you can gain huge advantages by naming dummy teams.

Mick O Dwyer, Liam Sheedy ,Brian Cody,Donal Og Grady,never had to do it. John Allen and credit due to him, picked the same team yesterday,and it did not stop them winning.

I do not mind the odd one or two changes on occassion especially due to injuries or sickness, but making 4 changes or more on the team before throw in is taking it a bit too far.

premierstone

bruschi wrote: »

that he should concentrate on being a top class hurler instead of an average footballer.

whilst I myself think Chin is a better hurler, its not Dunnes place to go around saying things like that about the lad.

An average footballer with an average team he said aswell, which is laughable considering the Footballers probably have a better chance of attaining a provincial title.

Lemlin

Whatever about dummy teams, Peter Canavan is busy trying to tell the world that his Fermanagh team have all been struck down with mystery injuries ahead of the weekend!

No one is believing ya Peter! That one is a bit old!

Royaler78

Probably been discussed before, but a blog on this topic.
Question is, will the GAA address or continue to leave themselves open to what happened last weekend?

http://www.thesportsdiaries.com/2013/06/13/clar-oifigiuil-your-numbers-up/

Clareman

Merged threads

Royaler78

Cheers Clareman, missed this thread earlier!

Lemlin

Poor Martin and Ger spent the entire first half today trying to work out Peter's changes!

Then he went at the start of the second half and told them Sean Quigley was coming off but it was Conor!

rebel girl 15

Cork did it again today, Sheehan and O Connor not starting.

theoneeyedman

Roscommon named a dummy team today too.....unfortunatly they played the game though......:(

Lemlin

Canavan went to extreme lengths too. Getting two of the lads to do the pre match parade and then changing them off!

bruschi

Lemlin wrote: »

Canavan went to extreme lengths too. Getting two of the lads to do the pre match parade and then changing them off!

and again, what use was it at all to them as Cavan made the much more impressive start to the game. Its a ridiculous ploy some managers are taking, and I am yet to see any positives from it yet.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The more the media make of this the more it will continue.I suspect most GAA managers don't like being lectured to by journalists who only want the naming of dummy teams to stop to suit themselves and so are less likely to change the more that is made of it.


They really don't have any obligation to name the team to suit the media.Give a squad list each week and say that the numbers don't necessarily reflect the positions of the player and stick to that list and everybody would be fine.The team could be named over the PA system prior to the match.If managers aren't sure of who is starting then why should they be forced to name a team midweek and then stick with it.

bruschi

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The more the media make of this the more it will continue.I suspect most GAA managers don't like being lectured to by journalists who only want the naming of dummy teams to stop to suit themselves and so are less likely to change the more that is made of it.


They really don't have any obligation to name the team to suit the media.Give a squad list each week and say that the numbers don't necessarily reflect the positions of the player and stick to that list and everybody would be fine.The team could be named over the PA system prior to the match.If managers aren't sure of who is starting then why should they be forced to name a team midweek and then stick with it.

still not getting it.

there is a huge difference between making one or 2 changes to a side in the space of a week, than what is happening now with managers purposely sending in false and completely ridiculous line ups that are intended for nothing more than to wind people up.

And Canavan today, sending out 2 men in the pre match parade. Did he change his mind then 30 seconds before throw in? Absolutely ridiculous stuff that you dont see in any sport in the world other than GAA.

And again, my main point in all of this, what purpose does it serve?

Lemlin

bruschi wrote: »

still not getting it.

there is a huge difference between making one or 2 changes to a side in the space of a week, than what is happening now with managers purposely sending in false and completely ridiculous line ups that are intended for nothing more than to wind people up.

And Canavan today, sending out 2 men in the pre match parade. Did he change his mind then 30 seconds before throw in? Absolutely ridiculous stuff that you dont see in any sport in the world other than GAA.

And again, my main point in all of this, what purpose does it serve?

I'd say it served no other purpose than actually motivating the Cavan lads. I'd say they were having a laugh thinking does that idiot actually think this is going to bamboozle us?

I know the whole of Cavan spent the last two weeks laughing at Canavan trying to protest that his whole team had niggles and were doubts for the game.

I really don't see why he was attempting all this psychological crap because he ended up not starting Kille and Corrigan, two of their best players when they came on.

68Murph68

So far this season the managers who have done this at inter-county have been Dunne, Counihan, Canavan and Davy Fitz.

It's not exactly a list that I'd describe as being among the sharpest minds in terms of GAA tactics.

If I were an inter-county manager I'd be reluctant to do it to solely to avoid being lumped in with these four.

Hidalgo

bruschi wrote: »

still not getting it.

there is a huge difference between making one or 2 changes to a side in the space of a week, than what is happening now with managers purposely sending in false and completely ridiculous line ups that are intended for nothing more than to wind people up.

And Canavan today, sending out 2 men in the pre match parade. Did he change his mind then 30 seconds before throw in? Absolutely ridiculous stuff that you dont see in any sport in the world other than GAA.

And again, my main point in all of this, what purpose does it serve?

The level it's been done at today is farcical. When it started the aim was to protect the player in question if he was making his debut. Name him on Thursday and nerves might get the better of him, name him an hour before throw in and he doesn't have time to think of all the things that could go wrong.
Of course some lads would be grand if they were named earlier in the week.

Now its gone to the stage where managers are trying but failing to confuse the opposition.