Entreprise Mess today [6 June 2013]

Losty Dublin

kingshankly wrote: »

New rules engines must be shut down now to save fuel

Years back I asked the auld lad just why locos were left on all night, thinking about fuel wastage.

He said that if a loco is needed to be moved ASAP it is ready whereas the time taken to start, test and prime it for service is typically 30-40 minutes. There was also the risk of it not starting easily and wear and tear and lastly the fuel cost saving of shutting down was negligible unless it was to be turned off for a few days. That was the 90's when a barrel of crude between about $17-$30; today the price per barrel is around the $98-$120 mark.

shamwari

Captain Chaos wrote: »

All 201s have HEP, the question is weather it's commissioned and functioning in each loco.

I think we both saying the same thing but were coming from different perspectives

Anyway, not wishing to be pernickity or pedantic but those 201's that are not HEP enabled don't have a HEP alternator in them. So in order to comission HEP, those missing bits need to be installed. It's not a question of hitting a button and it starts up. Again apologies if this is what you already said or inferred.

I have a pic somewhere I took in Inchicore of a brace of 201's with and without HEP and you can see the clear difference. I'll try dig it out.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Think about this for just a minute. EMD, the long time market leader in loco building, supposedly supply a locomotive to a long standing customer which they know isn't fit for purpose, in spite of the fact that the loco design is sold with HEP as an option.

HEP works perfectly in the USA and the concept as sold to and bought by IE should also have worked too. Obviously the implementation is where the problem is. I'll explain a little more anon...

steamengine wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with HEP ? What actually breaks down - the generator, the engine or does it vary ? The HEP maximum load is only about 10% of total power - just curious !

In order for HEP to produce the requiste amount of power, it requires the engine to run constantly at a minimum of notch 5 (or just over 60% of max power), even when Idle. That in turn creates a number of issues, not least the disappation of excess heat. If you ever listen to an Enterprise 201 landing in a station, the noise of the engine is usually drowned out by the roars of the blowers in the cooler groups. Oil consumption is also a minor issue and again if your beside a Enterprise 201 as it roars past, you can smell as much oil as there is diesel being burned in the exhaust.

Perhaps the biggest problems though is the nature of the service where the speed is constantly oscillating up and down between walking pace and up to 90mph line speed as a result of traffic pathing, TSR's and so forth. In the USA where HEP is far more reliable, were taking near constant running at speeds of around 50mph without stop / start accleration like we have here.

One final thing and again quoting an answer to the above question about what actually fails (I posed the same question to one of the fitters in Inchicore) he said it can be a number of things, but usually when a fault condition occurs, the loco will shut down to idle or off completely. The HEP alternator as a component in its own right is - I'm told - a usually reliable component.

Captain Chaos

I know you are saying that not all 201s have HEP equipped but what I do know is that all of the push pull compatible 201s have worked the Enterprise DD stock in HEP mode between 1997 and now. On the old IRN forums before they were taken down there were lists and dates of 206-209 and 215-234 of when they last worked on the Enterprise. All of them have been observed at some stage. But the state of the current condition of the fleet now may well be different as to what 201s are roaming around with fully functioning HEP gear.

What would be interesting now is the current extent of the damage to 230. Could it be feasible to remove the TPWS equipment from 230 and install in into another 201 that is known to be a good Enterprise performer back in the day, like 223 or 224? Back when IE could swap 201s at will some had a better reputation that others and IE seemed to have their favourite or stronger performers than others. 223 and 227 were always of the stronger ones while some people dreaded to see 209 in charge of a set. It used to be known as the 113 of the 071/111 class. 231 rarely turned up on Enterprise duty and was viewed by some as a strange choice of one of the 201s to get TPWS fitted to it.

goingnowhere

All 201 class locomotives are HEP fitted, all carry the jumper sockets below the buffer beam, all have the alternator installed. It was originally planned to replace the generator vans on Mk2 and Mk3 trains and the HEP control panel reflects this. 210 was used to test HEP and Mk3, 210 is not a push pull fitted locomotive

As HEP is only used on Enterprise, only those locomotives with push pull saw HEP commissioned

As the HEP alternator is mounted to the engine, removing it would have weight/balance issues and its likely the HEP alternator is mounted between the main alternator and the auxliary so can't really be removed unless you want to redesign how the equipment is laid out.

nerve agent

Here is some information regarding the recovery of the train to York Road on Friday morning:

The fire extinguished, 111 ran LE from York Road to Goragh Wood and was coupled to 230. 227 was also dispatched from Belfast and at 0130hrs it passed the train on the Down line and was coupled to the DVT via Newry cross over. 227 was there to provide braking to the train as 230’s air lines could have been damaged making a through brake from 111 impossible.

The ensemble left Goragh Wood at 0240hrs and crossed to the Down line at Poyntzpass. The three gate keepers at Lurgan were kept on duty to allow the train to pass. Arrival at York Road was at 0520hrs where the train was shunted into the motorway shed. 230 will remain in Belfast pending the RAIB investigation.

dowlingm

Amtrak and VIA Rail diesel locomotives with HEP at the moment are GE P42DC/P40DC. These are much stronger locomotives at 4200/4000hp V16 powerplants which can go to 1047rpm in non HEP but locked to 900 in HEP mode so notch 8 not needed and cooling/ventiliation more within operating boundaries. While yes, in rural America/Canada 50mph would be seen 79mph is common and these operate at up to 110mph on the Northeast Corridor and between Chicago and Detroit. For the Amtrak long distance trains they are also double if not triple headed with one engine on HEP duty.

As a percentage, losing 600 or so hp for HEP is a bigger hit to traction on a single-head 3000hp engine like F40 or 201 than a 4200hp one in the GEs, which is likely why VIA didn't bother to change their P42s during refit as they did their F40s. VIA has also reduced its long distance Canadian train from 3 F40s pre rebuild to 2 now that both locos have max traction available and HEP off one loco's aux generator.

In researching this post I noted that 17 of METRA's MP36 3600hp EMD645F locomotives with alternators are to be retrofitted with separate generators (PDF, page 16 of 36) to save fuel, bringing them to the MP36PH-3C setup all the other operators of the model bought.

steamengine

dowlingm wrote: »

Amtrak and VIA Rail diesel locomotives with HEP at the moment are GE P42DC/P40DC. These are much stronger locomotives at 4200/4000hp V16 powerplants which can go to 1047rpm in non HEP but locked to 900 in HEP mode so notch 8 not needed and cooling/ventiliation more within operating boundaries. While yes, in rural America/Canada 50mph would be seen 79mph is common and these operate at up to 110mph on the Northeast Corridor and between Chicago and Detroit. For the Amtrak long distance trains they are also double if not triple headed with one engine on HEP duty.

As a percentage, losing 600 or so hp for HEP is a bigger hit to traction on a single-head 3000hp engine like F40 or 201 than a 4200hp one in the GEs, which is likely why VIA didn't bother to change their P42s during refit as they did their F40s. VIA has also reduced its long distance Canadian train from 3 F40s pre rebuild to 2 now that both locos have max traction available and HEP off one loco's aux generator.

In researching this post I noted that 17 of METRA's MP36 3600hp EMD645F locomotives with alternators are to be retrofitted with separate generators (PDF, page 16 of 36) to save fuel, bringing them to the MP36PH-3C setup all the other operators of the model bought.

Is this the real nub of the issue then regarding stress on the engine ? - the 201's will be running at the maximum power rating 3000 hp for longer periods than if the genny vans were in use. I understand that running the engine at 900 or 750 rpm to provide HEP, whilst standing at a station is overkill speed wise and increasing wear and tear, but that load (600 hp quoted) is only a small percentage of the maximum power rating.

It appears to me that in either HEP mode, main or standby, that the engine low idle speed is just notched up to a high idle and a very high idle, the latter of which is the same as the maximum rpm limit of the engine. The engine then churns out whatever mechanical power is required for traction power and HEP / or HEP only, as demanded from the generators/alternators - traction power varying from zero to max and HEP constant.

Marine or shore AC generators / alternators supplying power (other than tractive), only use one speed - their maximum speed, whether just idling or providing power - again this speed is related to the cycles/sec (Hz) required.

All diesel engines of this size use governors, the function of which is to maintain a set speed or several set speeds, but allow power to be varied at those speeds. Basically how they work is that when a load is thrown unto the generator, the engine slows down and the governors instantly open the fuel pump racks to compensate, engine power increases and and the set speed is maintained. The slow down is imperceptible - engine governors are extremely sensitive and fast acting.

nerve agent

A previous fire in 2003-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3046063.stm

cbl593h

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Years back I asked the auld lad just why locos were left on all night, thinking about fuel wastage.

He said that if a loco is needed to be moved ASAP it is ready whereas the time taken to start, test and prime it for service is typically 30-40 minutes. There was also the risk of it not starting easily and wear and tear and lastly the fuel cost saving of shutting down was negligible unless it was to be turned off for a few days. That was the 90's when a barrel of crude between about $17-$30; today the price per barrel is around the $98-$120 mark.

As part of the Cherryville accident inquiry report there is a section about the fuel consumption of the errant "A" class that failed.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoTI_Cherryville1983.pdf

nerve agent

nerve agent wrote: »

A previous fire in 2003-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3046063.stm

Yep. 206 was the loco involved that time. It needed an extensive rewiring and rebuild

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

Yep. 206 was the loco involved that time. It needed an extensive rewiring and rebuild

Took about 2 years before it was back in service. I was getting a train one Friday morning from Cork to Dublin in the summer of 2005. I went to the top of the platform to see what loco was on it and was amazed to see 206, think it was only back in service a few weeks at the time. Put on a great performance and got into Dublin a few minutes early.

Markcheese

MYOB wrote: »

114 passengers? At this stage it might be cheaper from a fuel/staff/wear perspective for Irish Rail to pick up some Boeing 717's second hand and run Dublin to Belfast City...

Think two coaches !!! You'd probably make more as running two coaches is way cheaper than 1 train .... I must admit when I heard the number of people who got transferred,and thought
of all the who-ha with the enterprise
Over the years, i did wonder what's the
point Of the service and the line,

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Took about 2 years before it was back in service. I was getting a train one Friday morning from Cork to Dublin in the summer of 2005. I went to the top of the platform to see what loco was on it and was amazed to see 206, think it was only back in service a few weeks at the time. Put on a great performance and got into Dublin a few minutes early.

It also didn't work an Enterprise again for several years afterwards.

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

It also didn't work an Enterprise again for several years afterwards.

Yep, IE kept it well away. It was like loco 079 around the same time frame 2003-2006, IE did their best to keep it off passenger work because of it's dodgy governor above a certain speed.

damianmcr

I know nothing really about trains.

What are the EGV?

I see the odd Enterprise train fly past when im on the NIR service. They do seem crap old trains. Is this the case or not?

Whats the travel time from Belfast to Dublin?

Losty Dublin

damianmcr wrote: »

I know nothing really about trains.

What are the EGV?

I see the odd Enterprise train fly past when im on the NIR service. They do seem crap old trains. Is this the case or not?

Whats the travel time from Belfast to Dublin?

EGV is Electric Generator Van; it's literally a carriage with an electrical generator on board for train heating, lighting, etc. The trains date to 1996 and are reasonably comfortable on boards, though they could do with a refit soon.

Travel time is about 130 minutes.

damianmcr

Oh right. I think I know what you mean. Ive seen them before. How does that help? Does it take strain off the engine a little?

Any word on train upgrade or track upgrade?

Is that not a really poor time considering the bus can do it in nearly the same for over half the price?

etchyed

damianmcr wrote: »

Oh right. I think I know what you mean. Ive seen them before. How does that help? Does it take strain off the engine a little

Yes. The Enterprise carriages (often called the De Dietrich stock) were ordered without their own EGVs to supply power. It was thought that the 201 locomotives used to haul them could provide the power for lighting, air conditioning etc. Using the locomotive to provide power is called Head End Power (HEP).

It turns out that the 201s are not particularly well suited for this job, and frequently break down as a result of the strain of providing this power. At present, a number of 201s are rotated between operating the Enterprise and other trains, as operating the Enterprise on a continuous basis can damage the engines. This is why you might sometimes see locomotives on the Enterprise whose paint job doesn't match the carriages.

Using EGVs from discarded Mark 3 stock (the old orange trains) is an attempt to stop using HEP altogether, but making the Mark3 EGVs work with the De Dietrich stock seems to be causing problems for Irish Rail.

The details of these problems, along with the reasons for the mistaken belief that the 201s could provide HEP in the first place, are best explained by a poster more knowledgeable than me.

etchyed

damianmcr wrote: »

Is that not a really poor time considering the bus can do it in nearly the same for over half the price?

Yes, it is quite poor. One of the main reasons for this poor journey time is that the Enterprise can get stuck behind DART/Commuter trains as it enters/leaves Dublin. There is only one pair of tracks, and DART/Commuter trains are given priority over Enterprise trains, meaning they can get stuck behind as a DART calls at every single station.

Losty Dublin

etchyed wrote: »

Yes, it is quite poor. One of the main reasons for this poor journey time is that the Enterprise can get stuck behind DART/Commuter trains as it enters/leaves Dublin. There is only one pair of tracks, and DART/Commuter trains are given priority over Enterprise trains, meaning they can get stuck behind as a DART calls at every single station.

Actually, although there are lots of issues around Dublin the majority of hold up's, delays, cancelations and slow sections are between Belfast and Portadown.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yep, IE kept it well away. It was like loco 079 around the same time frame 2003-2006, IE did their best to keep it off passenger work because of it's dodgy governor above a certain speed.

Please describe what happened with the governor. It was about this time when IE had no working load bank so that might have made a re-engined or rebuilt loco a bit tricky to set up.

Fratello

Fratello wrote: »

Please describe what happened with the governor. It was about this time when IE had no working load bank so that might have made a re-engined or rebuilt loco a bit tricky to set up.

I think it was actually 081. It could only go up to notch 6, if you put it into 7 or 8 the engine would cut out. During its next overhaul they replaced the engine with one that was previously removed from 076.

GBOA

etchyed wrote: »

It turns out that the 201s are not particularly well suited for this job...

Perhaps not quite the right turn of phrase. IÉ were warned by GM that 201s were not suited to HEP but hey ho...

Losty Dublin

GBOA wrote: »

Perhaps not quite the right turn of phrase. IÉ were warned by GM that 201s were not suited to HEP but hey ho...

This is an old wives tale; at this stage it's almost an old grannies tale it's that long gone. EMD supplied off the shelf locomotives knowing the brief on hand and what was asked of them in the tender; other companies did so as well. To claim that they knowingly supplied locomotives which were unable to meet the tender specs is actually silly.

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is an old wives tale; at this stage it's almost an old grannies tale it's that long gone. EMD supplied off the shelf locomotives knowing the brief on hand and what was asked of them in the tender; other companies did so as well. To claim that they knowingly supplied locomotives which were unable to meet the tender specs is actually silly.

Fair enough. So please explain to us why the 201 class has under performed on the Enterprise and don't blame the Government.

Thank You.

hawkwind23

i use irish rail and the enterprise is by and far the most comfortable.
the new trains are like bus seats , tiny tables and uncomfortable.
if they replace the enterprise i would hope they put the emphasis on comfort , and change that bar carriage , most uncomfortable slidey seats ever