Entreprise Mess today [6 June 2013]

Jamie2k9

Just after reading some tweets from rui that 16.50 Connolly to Belfast failed in Connolly, 207 if I'm correct saw it being moved for repairs, didn't get a clear view. 18.05 Belfast-Connolly went on fire while 19.00 to Belfast was terminated en route with all remaining services on bus transfers.

Anyone more details about the fire, guessing loco providing HEP didn't help.

Jamie2k9

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22805136

Investigation into fire on Belfast to Dublin train



The train pulled into a disused station while fire crews tackled the blaze

An investigation is under way after a fire broke out on a train outside Newry, County Down.

One hundred and fourteen passengers were on board the Belfast to Dublin train when the fire occurred in the engine compartment.

The driver pulled up at Gorawood, a disused station several miles north of Newry, shortly after 19:00 BST.

Carriages were moved away from the train while the fire was brought under control. No one was injured.

Group commander Eddie Carroll said fire crews had difficulty getting into the engine area.

"The initial crews, on arrival, were confronted with a well developed fire," he said.

"Thanks to the prompt actions of the crews, we've now brought the fire under control."

Transport Minister Danny Kennedy said there would be a full investigation.

"I want to pay particular tribute to the driver of the engine, the crew on the engine and all of the emergency services who have attended," he said.

"I'm relieved that all of the passengers are safe."

Translink said there could be some delays on the line.

Captain Chaos

Wow, another 201 fire on the Enterprise. 206 was nearly a write off after it's fire. Add to that 208 and 231 both failed in the last week and the EGVs have not been in use since around February. It's back to the bad old days again it seems with the HEP issue. It seemed to be under control with regular loco swaps for a few years but not so any more.

LoonyLovegood

What happened to the EGV vans?

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Wow, another 201 fire on the Enterprise. 206 was nearly a write off after it's fire. Add to that 208 and 231 both failed in the last week and the EGVs have not been in use since around February. It's back to the bad old days again it seems with the HEP issue. It seemed to be under control with regular loco swaps for a few years but not so any more.

208 failed today, EGV's are supposed to be back this month.

230 will be another 209 if its lucky to see passenger service again.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

208 failed today, EGV's are supposed to be back this month.

230 will be another 209 if its lucky to see passenger service again.

At this rate they are going to run out of 201s with TPWS and working HEP. They only got 233 back recently and 228 seems to be out of action somewhere.

Rud

Why havn't the EGVs been on the Enterprise full time to ease off the pressure on the 201s?

Captain Chaos

Rud wrote: »

Isn't 230 not long back in action?

Why havn't the EGVs been on the Enterprise full time to ease off the pressure on the 201s?

233 is back about a month now after it failed at Clongriffin last September. 230 has been fine and was working IWT liners up until last week and moved back on to the DD sets.

There are still issues with the EGVs, don't know what they are exactly. I think the 3 DD sets had an EGV each at the same time for about a few weeks before they were withdrawn one by one again.

Rud

Captain Chaos wrote: »

233 is back about a month now after it failed at Clongriffin last September. 230 has been fine and was working IWT liners up until last week and moved back on to the DD sets.

There are still issues with the EGVs, don't know what they are exactly. I think the 3 DD sets had an EGV each at the same time for about a few weeks before they were withdrawn one by one again.

Yes,sorry i mixed up 230 with 233

Hopefully they will have the EGVs back running soon

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

At this rate they are going to run out of 201s with TPWS and working HEP. They only got 233 back recently and 228 seems to be out of action somewhere.

Does TPWS matter anymore, 29000 are allowed to Belfast so I can't see a 201's being a problem.

comradestalin

Did someone mention elsewhere that the EGVs were withdrawn after cracks in the frames were discovered ?

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Does TPWS matter anymore, 29000 are allowed to Belfast so I can't see a 201's being a problem.

If it didn't matter then they would not have bothered fitting it to 227,228 and 231 and only TPWS 201s work the Enterprise and no others since it came into force. The 29ks seem to have a special arrangement so long as their is a second crew member in the cab at all times for some reason and that was before the latter 3 201s got TPWS. I'm sure IE would love to put any 201 they wanted on the Enterprise sets to make life easier like they used to.

When the NIR C3Ks cover for the Enterprise only CAF sets 3001-6 can work south as they are the only ones fitted with CAWS and IE don't make any arrangement for the rest of the class or the C4Ks even though they are exactly the same length and shape so no need for clearance trails.

kingshankly

The 16:50 loco failed because of a burst pipe leaking air.
As for the loco on the 18:05 it's in some state fire crews cut panels to get to the fire

Captain Chaos

kingshankly wrote: »

As for the loco on the 18:05 it's in some state fire crews cut panels to get to the fire

Well at least now IE have a use for those 10 201s sitting in Inchicore. They can use their body panels to put 230 back together, that's depending on what the internal damage is like.


At least a burst air pipe is easy to fix, I was on a DART on day that suffered that problem, the brakes jammed on in fail safe mode and we were stranded for about 30mins but the fitters got it sorted track side.

8 Enterprise 201s, 2 out of action long term (209 HEP, 230 fire damage)
6 active with 3 needed every day plus regular swaps required until the EGVs are back and a spare rescue 201 at each end of the line. Things are going to be interesting indeed.

bikeman1

The problem the EGVs is the body work was cracked. The railway safety commission sanctioned that they could not operate in their current state without undergoing structural repairs.

Currently one van is in Inchicore with the rest at York Road. That is why they all literally disappeared overnight. 209 whose HEP is broken has been virtually solid on the Cork line since.

Now in relation to the locos and IE / NIR operations. The enterprise fleet of 201s as mentioned above has both TPWS / NIR Radio and CAWS. When TPWS was introduced there was a period were non TPWS fitted trains worker north. Then a ruling came in and it was restricted to TPWS only except in an emergency.

Now in that situation a second man must travel to observe the signals and AFAIK there is a speed restriction on that train. A 29000 working north does so under such a situation. A planned violation of the rule is not allowed, such as an 071 on a railtour. Often a 29 will be replaced by a C3k when it gets to Belfast and it will return south empty.

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

Jamie2k9

bikeman1 wrote: »

The problem the EGVs is the body work was cracked. The railway safety commission sanctioned that they could not operate in their current state without undergoing structural repairs.

Currently one van is in Inchicore with the rest at York Road. That is why they all literally disappeared overnight. 209 whose HEP is broken has been virtually solid on the Cork line since.

Now in relation to the locos and IE / NIR operations. The enterprise fleet of 201s as mentioned above has both TPWS / NIR Radio and CAWS. When TPWS was introduced there was a period were non TPWS fitted trains worker north. Then a ruling came in and it was restricted to TPWS only except in an emergency.

Now in that situation a second man must travel to observe the signals and AFAIK there is a speed restriction on that train. A 29000 working north does so under such a situation. A planned violation of the rule is not allowed, such as an 071 on a railtour. Often a 29 will be replaced by a C3k when it gets to Belfast and it will return south empty.

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

The best solution is to stop wrecking the 201's and get the EGV's sorted out, these cracks are they fixable or are they going to use other EGV's around?

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The best solution is to stop wrecking the 201's and get the EGV's sorted out, these cracks are they fixable or are they going to use other EGV's around?

I believe the 4 EGVs they picked to be converted were the ones in the best condition at the time. At this stage I don't think the other stored EGVs are useful for anything more than scrap.

If the EGVs can't be sorted the only other solution is to fit TPWS to all remaining 201s and spread the load over the fleet. Failing that fit TPWS to the surplus ICR sets, get them trial cleared to York Road and let them take over. Then send the DD stock on a long refurb mid life upgrade and look further into custom EGV stock for them. All of this is big money. It's sort of like pick what weapon you want to be killed with at this stage.

goingnowhere

The cover story last month was push pull faults when the DVT was leading with a gen van present.

Nice to see the truth...

bikeman1

There has been so much money thrown at the EGV solution and it is still not working properly. The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.

Don't forget all the problems on the Enterprise are not loco related. There was a period of problems with the brakes on some of the stock. Door problems etc.

I also believe the fuel consumption was higher with the EGVs than without.

Finally it is my understanding that the lads in Inchicore who worked on the vans have finished their career as carriage maintenance and this was their last job. So any new work will have to be done by contrators, which will cost more money.

Its all in the hands of 206, 207, 208, 227, 228, 231 and 233.

Captain Chaos

bikeman1 wrote: »

The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.
.

But it hasn't been a small pool of locos all along, it was all push pull 201s being used up until TPWS came in.

10 years ago it was rare to see an Enterprise livery loco actually hauling the Enterprise. IE seemed to have their favoured 201s on it. 223,224 and 227 were a regular trio for a while.

The 201s cannot do the job, GM even told IE this at the time or ordering the locos.

shamwari

bikeman1 wrote: »

The solution for IE / NIR is to fit out more 201s with TPWS to allow a greater pool of locos to be used. However that is easier said than done with the financial situation of NIR and IE not the best at the moment.

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

If the EGV vans can be resurrected then that might give some relief. Failing that, it might be a case of fitting some 22K's with TPWS and clearing these up run to Belfast.

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

n0brain3r

shamwari wrote: »

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IE_201_Class

Wikipedia suggests different but I'm sure one of the guys here will clear it up.

shamwari wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

I don't know if its on this thread or another but it's certainly been suggested recently that is permissible in an emergency.

Captain Chaos

shamwari wrote: »

Not all 201's are fitted with HEP, so retro-fitting every 201 with TPWS would make no difference!

I'm open to correction on this but I think any set without TPWS can work in an emergency with a pilot

Every 201 currently in service has HEP except 209 and 234, their HEP units are damaged from Enterprise usage. Every 201 still active today has worked the Enterprise in the past.

They can only run with a second crew man in an emergency for TPWS but it's not premited if it's pre planned in advance. Has to be spur of moment type of thing.

shamwari

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

Captain Chaos

shamwari wrote: »

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

That's why I said all the ones in service.

And at least one of the 201s in storage has functioning HEP. Loco 210 was used in static HEP testing on Mk3s in Inchicore with a plan to removing the EGVs from service but the testing didn't go too far. All 201s have HEP, the question is weather it's commissioned and functioning in each loco.

I think 229's HEP is out too after it derailed due to a landslide on the Cork mainline a few years back.

flyingsnail

It has not been a good week for them

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22815239

Dunmurry train fire: Second blaze within hours

A fire has broken out on a train at Dunmurry on the outskirts of Belfast.

A Fire and Rescue Services spokeswoman said what "appeared to be a small fire in a carriage," was reported shortly before 11:00 BST.

It is the second fire on a train within hours. An investigation is under way after a fire broke out on a train outside Newry, County Down.

One hundred and fourteen people were on the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise train when the fire broke out on Thursday.

Losty Dublin

shamwari wrote: »

trust me, not all 201's are HEP enabled. The ones put into "warm storage" a while back certainly aren't

This is correct, only some members of the class were enabled.

Captain Chaos wrote:

The 201s cannot do the job, GM even told IE this at the time or ordering the locos.

Out trots this Old Wife's Tale.

Think about this for just a minute. EMD, the long time market leader in loco building, supposedly supply a locomotive to a long standing customer which they know isn't fit for purpose, in spite of the fact that the loco design is sold with HEP as an option.

Jamie2k9

There has been so much money thrown at the EGV solution and it is still not working properly. The 201s can do the job, they have done so for the last 16 years and counting. A very small pool of locos have been thrashed on a very demanding line with demanding stock and some very long diagrams.

201's can't do the job at all, if they could then why are they breakdowns at least once of twice a week. The EVG's cost money but how much have all 201's repairs cost over the last 16 years. How many 201's have had to be rebuild sooner that expected because of HEP in use.

A solution needs to be found as there are no signs of replacement trains and 201's can't keep providing HEP for the next 10-15 years, at current rates 201's will not be able to keep HEP up as many are going to keep failing and going on fire because of it.

As for the RSC stopping the EGV's in service, which is better having EGV's with cracks in service or engines going on fire. IE should of being allowed to keep the EGV's on and repair them one by one.

bikeman1

Ideally a new train should be brought in for the Enterprise. However everything has to be split 50:50 with NIR as is the current set up, so there has to be full agreement put in place with the two railways and relevant department of transport. It is incredibly difficult to get something set up to run cross border.

For example NIR require a guard to travel on every train movement!

Back to the poor old 201s. I have been monitoring the Beller for about 13 years now, I am not sure where you get your stats that there has been one or two loco failures a week. Is that confirmed or just on hearsay?

There are a good few but not as high as that. Yes not ideal, but sadly that's what were stuck with unless something changes with NIR who are not being given a penny more for new trains at the moment.

bikeman1

206 looking and sounding great working the 16:50 Dublin to Belfast this evening ;-)

Captain Chaos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is correct, only some members of the class were enabled.



Out trots this Old Wife's Tale.

Think about this for just a minute. EMD, the long time market leader in loco building, supposedly supply a locomotive to a long standing customer which they know isn't fit for purpose, in spite of the fact that the loco design is sold with HEP as an option.

206-210 and 215-234 have all had their HEP commissioned and actually used at one point or another.


EMD do supply HEP as an option yes, and it works just fine in American locos that use a different electrical system then the one IE use which cause problems due to it's design. If it were built with todays technology there would be no issues.

If there was no issue with the 201s providing HEP why did IE and NIR spend all that time and money converting and testing the Mk3 EGVs. The 201s are not fit for purpose providing HEP with IE's electrical system.

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

EMD do supply HEP as an option yes, and it works just fine in American locos that use a different electrical system then the one IE use which cause problems due to it's design. If it were built with todays technology there would be no issues.

If that is the case then either they (And probably other aspirant companies competing for the tender) didn't supply what was required as per the tender, the requirements of the tender were unsuitable or flawed, how the train was used differed from what the tender specified or a combination of all these factors.

EMD supplied loco's to NIR in the past that had HEP fitted so all parties should have been aware of issues that may have arisen. When we take into account our friendly politicians saw to it that the DD sets and 201's have run contrary to what was proposed initially it infers that somebody put flies into the ointment at some stage.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

If there was no issue with the 201s providing HEP why did IE and NIR spend all that time and money converting and testing the Mk3 EGVs. The 201s are not fit for purpose providing HEP with IE's electrical system.

As currently used, no they aren't; we can all agree on that

ardmacha

Now in relation to the locos and IE / NIR operations. The enterprise fleet of 201s as mentioned above has both TPWS / NIR Radio and CAWS. When TPWS was introduced there was a period were non TPWS fitted trains worker north. Then a ruling came in and it was restricted to TPWS only except in an emergency.

Whose brainwave was it to have two different cab signalling and train protection systems?

dowlingm

shamwari wrote: »

it might be a case of fitting some 22K's with TPWS and clearing these up run to Belfast

22001-6 already have it. For some reason even though clearance trials were done what, nine months ago? people are still being told to go on 29000 which lack the additional safety equipment or the ability to use maximum line speeds where they are available.

EDIT: We've had the discussion about HEP before. If you look at the locos in the US which have HEP they tend to be 16V units rather than IE's V12 EMD710s, and even then most operators are going with HEP generators for new locos (except METRA) or retrofitting it like VIA Rail did with its entire F40PH fleet.

Captain Chaos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As currently used, no they aren't; we can all agree on that

As currently used yes, but what is the alternative? The locos are swapped fairly regularly and I am amazed the failure rate has stayed so low with only 7 locos.

What I believe is the issue with the 201s is that there is a compromise EMD had to make with the design to fit in with the Irish loading gauge and IE's axle limit. American and British locos tended or tend to have a separate generator or boiler in the loco providing the HEP that was completely isolated from the prime mover used for traction but not so with the 201 design. I don't know if it was lack of space or what.

I know I tend to compare the UK class 66 to our 201s sometimes but here is an example. With the latest batch of low emission class 66s they had to reduce the fuel tank capacity because the low emission engines are heavier and to keep the axle limit in check also the creep control gear had to be removed, something our 201s have. Just a theory I'm throwing out there.

Captain Chaos

dowlingm wrote: »

22001-6 already have it. For some reason even though clearance trials were done what, nine months ago? people are still being told to go on 29000 which lack the additional safety equipment or the ability to use maximum line speeds where they are available.

The thing is keeping at least 2 of those 6 units close to Connolly which can't realistically happen due to the way the 22k fleet operate. I don't know why they didn't fit it to all the units as delivered but NIR did the same by only fitting 3001-6 out of 23 sets with CAWS but they seem to be able to get hold of them regularly when needed to stand in.

steamengine

What exactly is the problem with HEP ? What actually breaks down - the generator, the engine or does it vary ? The HEP maximum load is only about 10% of total power - just curious !

Captain Chaos

ardmacha wrote: »

Whose brainwave was it to have two different cab signalling and train protection systems?

NIR follow the UK rail safety requirements. The UK don't use CAWS and opted for TPWS instead. CAWS fits IE needs and requirements. The DART use APT and CAWS systems.

The trains using the channel tunnel have to be compatible with 3 different electrical supply systems and 4 different signaling systems. Could be worse.

Captain Chaos

steamengine wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with HEP ? What actually breaks down - the generator, the engine or does it vary ? The HEP maximum load is only about 10% of total power - just curious !

The roughest and not great analogy I can come up with is imagine that to power the lights and radio in your car you had to keep your foot to the floor and the engine red lined all the time even when stopped. So stopped at traffic lights you are in neutral and the engine is still screaming. It would not last long at all like that and over heat.

201s used to be in HEP almost all day when on the Enterprise but new operating practices brought in a few years ago instruct the driver to take the loco out of HEP mode when stopped for a long time and not to engage HEP mode until about 20 mins before departure I think it is. A ground supply is used to power the lights and air con while the loco is not in HEP. This seemed to make a difference in reducing failure rates.

dowlingm

I don't understand the point about 22001-6 Captain Chaos. If keeping those six sets on Drogheda/Sligo/Rosslare duties to be nice and handy for Enterprise failures isn't feasible, why did IE fit them out as such in the first place? Sure, when Drogheda Depot couldn't accept 22s I could see the issue around swapping them back and forth for maintenance but I would have thought that issue sorted now? Look forward to getting more detail on that if you have some.

In any event, IE only sent one 29K set north yesterday apparently, so a single 3 car 22K would have given the same seat count.

ardmacha

NIR follow the UK rail safety requirements.

Why? Their kit never operates in Britain, there is no reason whatsoever to have the same system if it is going to cause problems with cross border operations.

Hungerford

ardmacha wrote: »

Why? Their kit never operates in Britain, there is no reason whatsoever to have the same system if it is going to cause problems with cross border operations.

They are subject to UK law.

Captain Chaos

dowlingm wrote: »

I don't understand the point about 22001-6 Captain Chaos. If keeping those six sets on Drogheda/Sligo/Rosslare duties to be nice and handy for Enterprise failures isn't feasible, why did IE fit them out as such in the first place? Sure, when Drogheda Depot couldn't accept 22s I could see the issue around swapping them back and forth for maintenance but I would have thought that issue sorted now? Look forward to getting more detail on that if you have some.

In any event, IE only sent one 29K set north yesterday apparently, so a single 3 car 22K would have given the same seat count.

I'd say the reason they only sent one set was that they knew numbers were low in advance. The train that failed had about what, 120 on board. Or they probably only had one set at had at the time, only IE ops department know.

I don't know what IE's thought process was for the limited fitting of TPWS to the 22ks. I assume along the lines of NIR's C3Ks fitted with CAWS.

The way the 22s are rotated around Drogheda, Connolly, Heuston and LTCD any set can end up anywhere. Come to think of it, after sets 1-4 were delivered and hauled to Drogheda and Dundalk later that night by a pair of 141s I have never seen them on the Connolly side of the network again. They must have at some stage though.

dowlingm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

after sets 1-4 were delivered and hauled to Drogheda and Dundalk later that night by a pair of 141s I have never seen them on the Connolly side of the network again. They must have at some stage though.

22002 did the clearance trial so at least once

L1011

114 passengers? At this stage it might be cheaper from a fuel/staff/wear perspective for Irish Rail to pick up some Boeing 717's second hand and run Dublin to Belfast City...

Captain Chaos

At the time of 206's failure things were very different; IE needed every loco they had, plus more, hence their loan of 112 from NIR. Now that about half of the fleet is surplus to requirements I'd say that could well be it for 230.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

201s used to be in HEP almost all day when on the Enterprise but new operating practices brought in a few years ago instruct the driver to take the loco out of HEP mode when stopped for a long time and not to engage HEP mode until about 20 mins before departure I think it is. A ground supply is used to power the lights and air con while the loco is not in HEP. This seemed to make a difference in reducing failure rates.

I haven't seen this been done. Usually the loco is put into standby HEP mode which uses the main generator to provide HEP at a reduced capacity. That spins the engine at 720 rpm which is roughly around notch 6. So it's still quite high.

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

What I believe is the issue with the 201s is that there is a compromise EMD had to make with the design to fit in with the Irish loading gauge and IE's axle limit. American and British locos tended or tend to have a separate generator or boiler in the loco providing the HEP that was completely isolated from the prime mover used for traction but not so with the 201 design. I don't know if it was lack of space or what.

There shouldn't an issue with loading gauges though; the JT42 were an off the peg loco size wise. Axle weight issues relate more to some bridges around the country and the poor state of track through years of non investment; that said there have been heavier axles with some steam engines of the past.

This one looks fairly bad.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=470058916409242&set=a.470058749742592.1073741829.310456715702797&type=1&theater

Losty Dublin

ardmacha wrote: »

Whose brainwave was it to have two different cab signalling and train protection systems?

They are two different systems doing two different jobs albeit with some overlapping similarities.

Train Protection Warning System is a system that prevents trains from passing red signals (SPAD) and breaking track speed limits. It is legally required by UK law for all mainline trains operation in the UK and Northern Ireland. This includes any Irish Rail and RPSI train that operates over the border.

Continuous Automatic Warning System is an in cab signal system that relays the status of upcoming signals in cab. It offers some train protection in the form of an automatic brake application when a driver doesn't acknowledge a change from a green signal but it can't prevent SPAD.

Both have merits and drawbacks but together they work very well in cab.

The UK looked at installing CAWS in the 90's but baulked when the likely cost was going to be billions; this was at a time when they were looking to cutting costs for private operators.

foggy_lad

Karsini wrote: »

This one looks fairly bad.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=470058916409242&set=a.470058749742592.1073741829.310456715702797&type=1&theater

Some reports are stating that the loco was uncoupled from the rest of the train and moved along the track for safety but from those pictures that is not the case!

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

Some reports are stating that the loco was uncoupled from the rest of the train and moved along the track for safety but from those pictures that is not the case!

No it doesn't seem like it. I see RTE's report also claimed that passengers were moved towards the rear of the train... well that wouldn't be very wise considering that the loco was at the back.