Empty Rifle/Pistol Brass & Shotgun Shells

dev110

Is it legal to have a collection of fired brass and shells from calibres you don't have a license to?

I'm commenting on a FB post and I've said it is illegal to have as empty, fired brass is classed as ammo and you need a license to have it but others are saying it is legal.
Just want to get the correct legal position on it.

vapour_trail

I always presumed it was legal if they arent capable of being fired! Ive loads and loads of empty cases including some military AA cases I aquired from a family friend who is in the army. Nothing live though they are all just cases

IRLConor

dev110 wrote: »

Is it legal to have a collection of fired brass and shells from calibres you don't have a license to?

I'm commenting on a FB post and I've said it is illegal to have as empty, fired brass is classed as ammo and you need a license to have it but others are saying it is legal.
Just want to get the correct legal position on it.

This is the relevant bit from Section 1 of the Firearms Act (as inserted by Section 26 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006):

“(1) In this Act—

“ ammunition ” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm and includes—

(a) grenades, bombs and other similar missiles, whether or not capable of being used with a firearm,

(b) any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile, and

(c) restricted ammunition, unless the context otherwise requires;

In other words, there's no distinction between component parts of ammunition and the full live version of the same ammo.

garv123

If you're afraid of getting done for that you could really do with a tinfoil hat..

At the gamefairs theirs always a big huge tub of casings where you have to guess the amount at the WDAI or NARGC stand.. I bet the guy who owns it isn't licensed for all them different calibres.

Lots of people have used casings on their key rings and the likes too.

wexfordman2

garv123 wrote: »

If you're afraid of getting done for that you could really do with a tinfoil hat..

At the gamefairs theirs always a big huge tub of casings where you have to guess the amount at the WDAI or NARGC stand.. I bet the guy who owns it isn't licensed for all them different calibres.

Lots of people have used casings on their key rings and the likes too.

Was at one of those re enactment days in Cork gaol last year and one of the stands was selling empty case shells for a euro a pop:-)

While on the subject, I have a couple of hundred empty.243 ones, how do you dispose of them, would think throwing them in the bin was a no no

juice1304

Someone was done for it though afaik

garv123

juice1304 wrote: »

Someone was done for it though afaik

Any link to it?

Cass

juice1304 wrote: »

Someone was done for it though afaik

It was a chap in Wicklow some 8 years ago (IIRC). The case was dismissed, but he still had to go through it.

Chem, off here, was also in a similar position some time back. His case was also dismissed.


Point being that you can be done for it.

Grizzly 45

wexfordman2 wrote: »

While on the subject, I have a couple of hundred empty.243 ones, how do you dispose of them, would think throwing them in the bin was a no no

Take a hammer to them,flatten them,collect them and sell the brass to your nearest junkyard. Buy more ammo.:)

1shot16

Cant you get deactivated ammo... im guessing thats legal.Im sure if you ask ur firearms officer there should be no problem.

Would he ever write permission to let you have 1 round of live ammo of each caliber as you are a collector or are they dat sound?

Witcher

1shot16 wrote: »

Cant you get deactivated ammo... im guessing thats legal.Im sure if you ask ur firearms officer there should be no problem.

Would he ever write permission to let you have 1 round of live ammo of each caliber as you are a collector or are they dat sound?

Firearms Officers can't give you permission for anything and no super would allow people to hold live ammunition unlicenced.

1shot16

Blay wrote: »

Firearms Officers can't give you permission for anything and no super would allow people to hold live ammunition unlicenced.

I know but to be honest i wouldn't think it would be a bad thing to let collecters to get a license to hold no more 1 or 2 rounds of each calibre for collecting purposes only.Im sure there is some pretty expensive rounds out there that collecters cant buy and would love to get their hands on but cant!

If a round goes off and its not in a barrell it ain't deadly!

rowa

Cass wrote: »

It was a chap in Wicklow some 8 years ago (IIRC). The case was dismissed, but he still had to go through it.

Chem, off here, was also in a similar position some time back. His case was also dismissed.


Point being that you can be done for it.

Yeah i remember that, the case dragged on for a couple of years,it was covered in the shooters digest, the guy was worried sick that he was going to be convicted. Not worth the legal costs and the worrys for a few brass cases.

LIFFY FISHING

Spent ammo cases are classified as a round, little known fact, and the spents also count as part of the make up total on your licence, best place to dispose of your spent brass is at a registered range, however some ranges require you to bring your spents away with you.

clivej

Well what about all the people with 100mm cases for keeping the fire irons in

IRLConor

clivej wrote: »

Well what about all the people with 100mm cass for keeping the fire irons in

Just as illegal as holding a piece of .308 brass when all you've got is a licence for a .22.

Unfortunately, just because the law is stupid and widely ignored doesn't mean that a cranky Garda couldn't cause you a lot of hassle over it.

Grizzly 45

True,but your best bet is to make the case unusable as well.
Simply drill a small hole appropriate to the calibre around the base and then it is a totally unusable bit of brass.
Re loaders reject used cases for less ,like micro cracks in the brass.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

True,but your best bet is to make the case unusable as well.
Simply drill a small hole appropriate to the calibre around the base and then it is a totally unusable bit of brass.
Re loaders reject used cases for less ,like micro cracks in the brass.

Unusable or not, it's still a component, albeit a damaged one.

Drilling holes in your deactivated firearms renders them unusable, but you still need permission from your Super to have it so I reckon it would be the same with damaged casings.

I think I'd rather play my cards safe and not have something in my possession that's against the law if I don't have a licence for that calibre.

Grizzly 45

Dunno...There is a paradox in all this law.You cant have a bullet board as a shooter,but you can buy and wear a string of empty 7.62 GPMG brass shells[undrilled] down in your local surplus store and wear them as a fashion accessory down to the nite club.Or you can buy a bullet key ring too.Or a deact empty practise pineapple or baseball grenade too.
Reckon the Gaurds would have to arrest half the RDF who were on the Bofors AA guns as just about everyone and his Gran has one or two 40mm empty shells at home as fire iron holders or whatever.:P
The chances of them or of 20lb arty shells being reloaded and used is pretty slim methinks...

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Dunno...There is a paradox in all this law.You cant have a bullet board as a shooter,but you can buy and wear a string of empty 7.62 GPMG brass shells[undrilled] down in your local surplus store and wear them as a fashion accessory down to the nite club.Or you can buy a bullet key ring too.Or a deact empty practise pineapple or baseball grenade too.
Reckon the Gaurds would have to arrest half the RDF who were on the Bofors AA guns as just about everyone and his Gran has one or two 40mm empty shells at home as fire iron holders or whatever.:P
The chances of them or of 20lb arty shells being reloaded and used is pretty slim methinks...

There's no paradox in the law, only in the enforcement. None of the above behaviours are legal, they're just not prosecuted.

It's the thing that infuriates me the most about Irish firearms laws. The laws are overly strict and only selectively enforced. This means that no-one from the "ah sure, it'll be grand" brigade complains to politicians and/or the Gardai and hence they think the laws are perfectly reasonable.

Here's just a few things which have stupid laws/policies which have been regularly ignored over the years:

• Ammo limits
• Air guns
• Reloading
• Empty brass

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

garv123

IRLConor wrote: »

There's no paradox in the law, only in the enforcement. None of the above behaviours are legal, they're just not prosecuted.

It's the thing that infuriates me the most about Irish firearms laws. The laws are overly strict and only selectively enforced. This means that no-one from the "ah sure, it'll be grand" brigade complains to politicians and/or the Gardai and hence they think the laws are perfectly reasonable.

Here's just a few things which have stupid laws/policies which have been regularly ignored over the years:

• Ammo limits
• Air guns
• Reloading
• Empty brass

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

Some people have air rifles with 100 round limits which makes it near impossible for them to legally buy ammo

IRLConor

garv123 wrote: »

Some people have air rifles with 100 round limits which makes it near impossible for them to legally buy ammo

Yup, and that's not that rare an occurrence either.

If the DoJ/Gardai insist on the ridiculous practice of treating <7.5J airguns as firearms and if they also insist on treating simple lead pellets as ammunition then the least they could do is have a default limit of 5,000 for airguns.

vapour_trail

Let people already with shotgun or rifle licenses be allowed purchase air rifles but it must be registered in your name etc but all youd have to do is submit the info to the guards and pay €25 a year for the permit but youd be allowed walk into a shop and buy the air rifle and walk out with it (if you have a gun license) Id safely say the vast number of lads with a gun license would get one air rifle. Say maybe 80,000 multiplied by €25 every year for the permit alone. Then youd have the money that firearms dealers would make from the business which would be a major amount. Then if anyone who doesnt have a gun license and wants an air rifle they would have to go through the licensing process like it is now.

garv123

vapour_trail wrote: »

Let people already with shotgun or rifle licenses be allowed purchase air rifles but it must be registered in your name etc but all youd have to do is submit the info to the guards and pay €25 a year for the permit but youd be allowed walk into a shop and buy the air rifle and walk out with it (if you have a gun license) Id safely say the vast number of lads with a gun license would get one air rifle. Say maybe 80,000 multiplied by €25 every year for the permit alone. Then youd have the money that firearms dealers would make from the business which would be a major amount. Then if anyone who doesnt have a gun license and wants an air rifle they would have to go through the licensing process like it is now.

Thats only 1.66 a year cheaper than a gun licence... which people dont want to pay already for low powered air rifles.

Grizzly 45

IRLConor wrote: »

If people actually complained about these laws rather than ignoring them we might have more reasonable firearms laws in this country.

Complain to who?

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Complain to who?

TDs mainly, but also to Gardai.

For example, rather than thinking "100 round limit? That's bull****, I'll just ignore it and get more" it would be more helpful if people actually told the Gardai that the limit was useless and keep submitting FCA2s to get the limit increased.

Grizzly 45

IRLConor wrote: »

TDs mainly, but also to Gardai.

For example, rather than thinking "100 round limit? That's bull****, I'll just ignore it and get more" it would be more helpful if people actually told the Gardai that the limit was useless and keep submitting FCA2s to get the limit increased.

TDs...Well of course those in opposition will promise anything to get back into power and then ignore your requests when in office..Those in office will make soothing noises and ignore you as they can.An Irish politicans promise is not worth the oxygen used to speak the promise.:(

The Gaurds..."well shure those are only guidelines." [Except when it suits,then they are hard &fast law.] But by rights it is now apprently the minimum amount of ammo to be issued as standard is 500 rounds.

Either it was EU or a NARGC HC situation with tourist shooters bringing in thousands of rounds and us natives were stuck with a 100 rounds .

Keep pushing and your name proably ends up in a "Pesky mouthy smart ass gun owner and possible enemy of the state ." Garda /DOJ file.:rolleyes: I know mine has:D:D.

Simple fact is here no one in power wants anything to do with us,as we are all potential;nutters,criminals or bambi killers.Bad for the political image or the promotion and shot at the Park.Good for either if you can stomp on us further.:mad:

BattleCorp

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

garv123

BattleCorp wrote: »

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

Unfortunately thats not the case always as you said it usually isnt a problem but,

Some supers will refuse to grant more than 100 rounds and will no listen to any reasoning. same as some will just always refuse a mod no matter what you try and say

dc99

I asked this question as well to a fire arms dealer. he confirmed they are counted as ammo because you can reload the brass. ( not so much for rimfire though) if you think about it the brass would be the hardest part to make.

IRLConor

BattleCorp wrote: »

I never had any problems regarding the amount of ammo I am allowed to have. At first I was granted a certain number of rounds on my licence which wasn't enough for my needs. I could easily use 500 rounds in an afternoon at the range. I filled in the form and wrote a letter explaining why I needed a higher limit and the Gardaí obliged by increasing my ammo allowance. Problem solved.

If you state your case logically, explaining the reasons why you need an ammo increase, there usually isn't a problem.

I did precisely that while asking for 5,000 rounds and was given 500. I then sent in an FCA2 for 5,000 and months later plus a visit from the CPO I got it increased to 1,000.

Grizzly 45

Ergo,if the brass is drilled it cant be reused for ammo or be reloaded.
Thuss you would have to assume it is a non functioning bit of brass tubing that once was a shell?

What pees me off here with these laws is the ambiguity and greyness with everything.Anywhere else in the World the gun laws are crystal clear as to what is being defined in law. You know exactly whats legal or not and what you need to do to posses or shoot any type of gun or collect ammo or whatever.
Say in Germany I want to own a semi auto rifle.Their main worry is;can it be converted easily to select fire with common everyday tools or items,and is it made out of converted military select fire parts that are easily reconverted?Therefore every semi rifle model for sale in Germany is taken to the Federal police labs and tested exactly for this...If it passes these tests ,anyone can buy it with the correct liscense.If not,back to the drawing board and its not for sale. No ambiguity or "it looks like" or "might be" or "could be".

Here it is if ,but ,maybe,and Idonlikedelookodat so its not going to be liscensed in my district.Hardly surprising then we dont know what to do with our spent ammo casings.....Also,if they are classified as ammo,what grauntees do we have then as shooters that the range is disposing of them correctly?And what is the correct procedure then for a range to dispose of empty shells??
After all you could be charged then with unsecure ammo storage if you left it on the range too.Crazy,but not impossible under our current law were it to be literally interperated.

BattleCorp

IRLConor wrote: »

I did precisely that while asking for 5,000 rounds and was given 500. I then sent in an FCA2 for 5,000 and months later plus a visit from the CPO I got it increased to 1,000.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This I don't understand.

If you are a target shooter, you need a lot more ammo than somebody doing a bit of bunny bashing. 1000 rounds isn't really enough when it comes to target shooting. You could use this in a week or two depending on how much training/comps you are doing. And it really isn't enough especially if you are looking for batch consistency etc.

If it isn't enough ammo, I'd write another letter and fill in another FCA2 form requesting an ammo limit increase.

chem

Yep I was summoned for brass!!

They even had my ammo that I had a certs for on the summons!

Its no fun waiting years to see if you are going to be convicted, for what I knew to be rubbish, but the Gardai believed to be a major find :rolleyes:

On the report from the park. All the ammo was listed and described.

Eg: Fired 7.62mm with bullet head put back on and stone reincerted into case. Made buy company name blablabla.....

Yes I said "stone reincerted"!! It seems the "expert" seemed to think a stone was always in the case. Who ever made the inert ammo put stones into the case, to make a rattle noise when shock. Just to prove it was inert I guess!

I was summoned for empty blank ammo shells also! Ones I would have found in the curragh over the years.

If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me, or if anyone ever finds theselfs in the mess I was in PM me and I will do my best to help

vapour_trail

chem wrote: »

Yep I was summoned for brass!!

They even had my ammo that I had a certs for on the summons!

Its no fun waiting years to see if you are going to be convicted, for what I knew to be rubbish, but the Gardai believed to be a major find :rolleyes:

On the report from the park. All the ammo was listed and described.

Eg: Fired 7.62mm with bullet head put back on and stone reincerted into case. Made buy company name blablabla.....

Yes I said "stone reincerted"!! It seems the "expert" seemed to think a stone was always in the case. Who ever made the inert ammo put stones into the case, to make a rattle noise when shock. Just to prove it was inert I guess!

I was summoned for empty blank ammo shells also! Ones I would have found in the curragh over the years.

If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me, or if anyone ever finds theselfs in the mess I was in PM me and I will do my best to help

In fairness now you could have taken the deadly stone out of the highly dangerous bullet case and used it in a sling shot to shoot someone in the head and kill them.... Your story is Fcuking rediculous. What a complete waste of time for you and the Gardai involved. It shows the true lack of knowledge and cop on in the legal system.

garv123

So technically you cant give a pheasant or duck to a family member to eat because they'll be in possession of ammunition components unless you pick every peace of lead out?

Grizzly 45

chem wrote: »

Yep I was summoned for brass!!

They even had my ammo that I had a certs for on the summons!

Its no fun waiting years to see if you are going to be convicted, for what I knew to be rubbish, but the Gardai believed to be a major find :rolleyes:

On the report from the park. All the ammo was listed and described.

Eg: Fired 7.62mm with bullet head put back on and stone reincerted into case. Made buy company name blablabla.....

Yes I said "stone reincerted"!! It seems the "expert" seemed to think a stone was always in the case. Who ever made the inert ammo put stones into the case, to make a rattle noise when shock. Just to prove it was inert I guess!

I was summoned for empty blank ammo shells also! Ones I would have found in the curragh over the years.

If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me, or if anyone ever finds theselfs in the mess I was in PM me and I will do my best to help

Hi Chem
IF I remember correctly back those few years ago,didnt you contact the DOJ re ammo collecting and AFAICR they emailed you back saying there was no problem with such here and to go right ahead??Do you still have that mail and who sent it??
It might be worth us sending an offical request to them and ask would they issue a public statement on this to clarify it once and for all???

Cass

The problem with that, as i see it, is much the same as the issue with the deer license with a .223. Because one department gives you the go ahead still does not overwrite the law.

So if someone, mistakenly or not, gives you written permission it still does not supercede the law.

chem

I did Grizz. Sadly it was word of mouth over the phone. They did send an email stating the law at the time, but the words used over the phone was to the effect "sure go on ahead" I have learned from that and now request everything in writing.

I had a box of 5.6 bullet heads I picked up, just to put heads on some of my empty brass. When I showed them to the Gardai one officer said that that ment just one thing and one thing only, that I was reloading. I never reloaded in my life, had no equipment etc......but to him, he said finding bullet heads ment I was reloading :rolleyes:

Now TBH I did have other stuff that looking back I was stupid having. I had some blank rounds still with powder in them. I also had some relic guns that where rusted and broken (could never fire again) I also had a Jagger blank fire 8mm AK47 replica. This really excited the Gardai when I showed it to them I explained it was a blank fire gun and was asked what caliber was it converted to fire :rolleyes:

If one of the mods would like to PM me, I will send them copies of the summons and reports with my details blanked out, so they can be posted here! Pics or it never happened type thing :P

Again If anyone is having trouble PM me. I got great help from people I only contacted me when they heared what had happened me. I owe them so much, as it was a very dark time in my life. One thing to lose my passion another to lose my freedom (for scrap metal)!!

My solicitor told me that the rank hungery sargent, that was taking the case against me, wanted to show boat my collection in court. This would have been trial by public opinion as it was in the district court. Everyone in the court on the day would have just seen guns and ammo (all out of context) and the judge would have had to be seen to come down heavy on me!

Thankfully the Judge went to see my collection in the Garda strong room and seen what it was for himself (junk) but it was my junk and I loved it!

My solicitor asked for a special sitting on a Sat as my case would have taken half the day of a normal sitting! Press seen special sitting, guns and ammo and Co. Louth.......:o........... Star and sun turned up!!

Long story to short. Judge and state prosecutor could see what was going on. I was wondering at one point if the prosecutor was working for me

End result: Case dismissed!! But 2 years of my life and hobby been put on hold was not worth some brass and rusty broken guns!!

IRLConor

BattleCorp wrote: »

If you are a target shooter, you need a lot more ammo than somebody doing a bit of bunny bashing. 1000 rounds isn't really enough when it comes to target shooting. You could use this in a week or two depending on how much training/comps you are doing.

Yeah, at the moment I'm going through 1,000 every 3-5 weeks depending on how many competitions are on. If there isn't a competition on, I use more rounds (e.g. I shot two matches worth of ammo in training today whereas if there was a competition I would only have shot one match worth).

If I trained as much as I wanted, I could easily go through more but time pressures mean I only get to shoot 3 times a week at the moment. Even with only shooting 3 times a week I still have to "baby" the amount of ammo I shoot. I'd probably shoot roughly 250-300 rounds a week if I wasn't trying to conserve what I have and more still if I got to the range more often.

BattleCorp wrote: »

And it really isn't enough especially if you are looking for batch consistency etc.

I know. Importing a batch 1,000 at a time is tedious to say the least.

BattleCorp wrote: »

If it isn't enough ammo, I'd write another letter and fill in another FCA2 form requesting an ammo limit increase.

It's never enough ammo! In all seriousness though, I'd need a limit of 10,000 or 15,000 to be sure of never banging against it. My renewal is up soon and that will include another request to increase the limit. Maybe they will listen this time.

wexfordman2

chem wrote: »

I did Grizz. Sadly it was word of mouth over the phone. They did send an email stating the law at the time, but the words used over the phone was to the effect "sure go on ahead" I have learned from that and now request everything in writing.

I had a box of 5.6 bullet heads I picked up, just to put heads on some of my empty brass. When I showed them to the Gardai one officer said that that ment just one thing and one thing only, that I was reloading. I never reloaded in my life, had no equipment etc......but to him, he said finding bullet heads ment I was reloading :rolleyes:

Now TBH I did have other stuff that looking back I was stupid having. I had some blank rounds still with powder in them. I also had some relic guns that where rusted and broken (could never fire again) I also had a Jagger blank fire 8mm AK47 replica. This really excited the Gardai when I showed it to them I explained it was a blank fire gun and was asked what caliber was it converted to fire :rolleyes:

If one of the mods would like to PM me, I will send them copies of the summons and reports with my details blanked out, so they can be posted here! Pics or it never happened type thing :P

Again If anyone is having trouble PM me. I got great help from people I only contacted me when they heared what had happened me. I owe them so much, as it was a very dark time in my life. One thing to lose my passion another to lose my freedom (for scrap metal)!!

My solicitor told me that the rank hungery sargent, that was taking the case against me, wanted to show boat my collection in court. This would have been trial by public opinion as it was in the district court. Everyone in the court on the day would have just seen guns and ammo (all out of context) and the judge would have had to be seen to come down heavy on me!

Thankfully the Judge went to see my collection in the Garda strong room and seen what it was for himself (junk) but it was my junk and I loved it!

My solicitor asked for a special sitting on a Sat as my case would have taken half the day of a normal sitting! Press seen special sitting, guns and ammo and Co. Louth.......:o........... Star and sun turned up!!

Long story to short. Judge and state prosecutor could see what was going on. I was wondering at one point if the prosecutor was working for me

End result: Case dismissed!! But 2 years of my life and hobby been put on hold was not worth some brass and rusty broken guns!!

Holy crap!! How long ago was this?

I had an old shoe box of brass casings from last year when I got my. 243 first. Had a lot if problems zeroing so went through few boxes. Altogether just counted 150 empty cases, and I have one box of unused ammo, so at 170 of my 200 limit in theory

Just spent last ten minutes crushing the empty brass to be safe, but want to get rid of em now anyway. So, if I chucked em all in the recycling bin, it might give some poor sod sorting the recycling a bit of a fright, so what do I do?

I used to throw the old 12g cases in the recycling regularly but always felt a bit off about it, done wanted to dump 150 bits of 243 brass all at once in the bin, someone will think I've been running a training camp or something :-)

Grizzly 45

Take them down to the local scrap metal merchant.They are now nothing but flat metal strips... IOW it would take a positive miracle to reform them into a properly sized cartridge case.:pac:Sell them for a few quid and buy some more ammo.Brass is worth a fair bit nowadays.
Indeed shotgun cartridges should be treated the same,but for some reason there is less of a panic about them?They are easier to decomission. Cut the base off with a Stanley knife.Metal base for recycling ,plastic to the plastic recycling.

knockon

chem wrote: »

Yep I was summoned for brass!!

They even had my ammo that I had a certs for on the summons!

Its no fun waiting years to see if you are going to be convicted, for what I knew to be rubbish, but the Gardai believed to be a major find :rolleyes:

On the report from the park. All the ammo was listed and described.

Eg: Fired 7.62mm with bullet head put back on and stone reincerted into case. Made buy company name blablabla.....

Yes I said "stone reincerted"!! It seems the "expert" seemed to think a stone was always in the case. Who ever made the inert ammo put stones into the case, to make a rattle noise when shock. Just to prove it was inert I guess!

I was summoned for empty blank ammo shells also! Ones I would have found in the curragh over the years.

If anyone has any questions feel free to PM me, or if anyone ever finds theselfs in the mess I was in PM me and I will do my best to help

I wonder is that the same "expert" the State wheels out in the District Court:eek: