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Speeding fine.

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    #32
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Wheres My ForkandKnife wrote: »
    Start speeding around with a mask on and I think you may end up with bigger problems than two point and an €80 fine.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, if I got the fine and wasn't driving I wouldn't accept it and would go to court if I had to. If I had foolishly lent the car to someone who was uninsured to drive I would accept the fine and points as it would be the lesser of the two problems.Otherwise I would post it back with the correct drivers name and address and let the guards worry about it.

    There are all types of situations which could be thrown up to keep the points e.g your friend has an irish licence with 10 points etc

    It was just an example, as I said, a cap and a pair of glasses will be enough to cover most of my face and make it indistinguishable but I am sure that wouldnt be enough for me to get away with a speeding ticket. And I am sure no cop will stop me for wearing a cap and glasses.

    What I was trying to say is that if you receive a ticket and you werent driving you need to find out who was driving, it is your car therefore your responsibility. You might go to court and win, or not (I am not sure who this will work in Ireland).

    Personally I would be pretty pissed if I get a ticket and found out someone drove my car without my consent. If it was without it then you will have to report it, and go to court and provide evidence that, for example, you were not in the country during those days.

    If you werent driving the car and you receive a ticket and you know who was driving but that person is refusing to accept the fine, that's a different issue than saying that you never knew your car was being used and you cannot identify the driver. But again I dont know how a judge will deal with this. I suppose there will be examples out there that we can look at.

    This, IMO, its a big issue in Ireland, the same way as getting away without paying a fine because you allegedly said that you have never received the fine (which actually works).

    In my opinion things will have to change to prevent people from abusing of these legal "wholes". Now, I understand that some people genuinely dont get this notifications as well as some people were not driving their cars and might not know who was (although I know who drivers my car).

    What is going to happen in the future is that laws are going to change, and make things harder, Spain use to be the same, people took advantage until the goverment decided to put an end to it by covering those legal wholes, now, it is almost impossible to speed in Spain and to avoid paying a fine, and a speed fine is not 80 euro and 2 points, it can be up to thousands of euro and jail time!

    I just hope this doesnt happen in Ireland


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    #33
    Wheres My ForkandKnife
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Wheres My ForkandKnife


    The reality is in 99.9% of cases the person driving will have the consent of the owner.I'm driving a long time and no-one has ever driven a car of mine without my consent.I don't think there was any suggestion of someone driving without consent in the original question.

    You obligation is to provide the guards with the details of who was driving.After that it's up to them.If it's genuine then I'm sure the registered owner would be fine.It's only when someone is trying to pull a stroke that they may run into issues.


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    #34
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Wheres My ForkandKnife wrote: »
    The reality is in 99.9% of cases the person driving will have the consent of the owner.I'm driving a long time and no-one has ever driven a car of mine without my consent.I don't think there was any suggestion of someone driving without consent in the original question.

    You obligation is to provide the guards with the details of who was driving.After that it's up to them.If it's genuine then I'm sure the registered owner would be fine.It's only when someone is trying to pull a stroke that they may run into issues.

    I totally agree...99% of the time if not 100%... however, the last part is again tricky, I could receive a ticket and I could lie and say, for example that you were the one driving my car, then, when the ticket gets to you you tell the gardai you werent the person driving so what next?

    This will only work in a honest world... but the problem is we dont live in one, most people are honest (or try to) but sometimes people might have no choice, imagine you receive a ticket 80 euro and 2 points, and you are 2 points from having your license suspended... how many people wont feel tempted in saying oh I wasnt driving, it was this fella go and find him...


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    #35
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    mdebets wrote: »
    Not always. What if it was his wife who drove? He can't be forced to testify against her.
    I thought that's what the picture was for. Don't the Garda check, if the driver in the picture is the owner or have a quick look around his neighbourhood, to see if someone recognises the driver.
    I thought the standard was, to not convict someone in this case the first time, but make him keep a logbook, which can then be used as evidence in further speeding cases.

    There's no testifying involved. Owner pays the fine and takes the points, or identifies who should do so.

    A speeding ticket shouldn't end up as some sort of glorified whodunnit.

    First time speeders aren't given a dogs life either.


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    #36
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Bohrio wrote: »
    I totally agree...99% of the time if not 100%... however, the last part is again tricky, I could receive a ticket and I could lie and say, for example that you were the one driving my car, then, when the ticket gets to you you tell the gardai you werent the person driving so what next?

    This will only work in a honest world... but the problem is we dont live in one, most people are honest (or try to) but sometimes people might have no choice, imagine you receive a ticket 80 euro and 2 points, and you are 2 points from having your license suspended... how many people wont feel tempted in saying oh I wasnt driving, it was this fella go and find him...

    Doesn't work that way.

    It's not up to the Gardai to find the driver - it's up to the owner to identify
    the driver and get them accept the points/fine.

    If they won't do that it kicks back to the owner again.


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    #37
    blade1
    Registered Users Posts: 12,276 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    What kind of person takes your car, speeds and then leaves you pick up the fine and penalty points.
    Or was it you that was speeding and you are looking for a loophole?


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    #38
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    blade1 wrote: »
    What kind of person takes your car, speeds and then leaves you pick up the fine and penalty points.
    Or was it you that was speeding and you are looking for a loophole?

    The sort of person you shouldn't have lent your car to?


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    #39
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Doesn't work that way.

    It's not up to the Gardai to find the driver - it's up to the owner to identify
    the driver and get them accept the points/fine.

    If they won't do that it kicks back to the owner again.

    Thats exactly what I was trying to say... :rolleyes:


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    #40
    Wheres My ForkandKnife
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Wheres My ForkandKnife


    Only on the internet could a speeding fine turn into the hunt for Lord Lucan:) There are only two possible situations.

    1) I lend my car to someone who lives in Ireland.They get a fine and I pass their details on.If they deny it I could end up in court and unless they look identical to me I would be happy to go to court.

    Personally this would never happen to me as I would be very particular about who I lend my car to. I can say with 100% confidence I wouldn't be put in this situation.

    2) I lend my car to someone here on holidays.I would most likely have to name them on my policy for them to be able to drive legally here.When you think of all the things that could happen here a speeding fine is probably the best of them.My "friend" who lives in Walkabout Creek tells the guards to do one.Not my problem, I have details that they were legally driving my car and there is photographic evidence that it was not me driving.

    You are obliged to pass on the name and address of the person who was driving.The amount of people I would lend my car to I could count on one hand and I would know a lot more about them than just their name and address.

    You could discuss hypothetical situations until the cows come home but the above is the reality for me.


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    #41
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    Cork24 wrote: »
    I don't know that's why i am asking for, I think i would be off the hook for technically issues.

    If you have the car for any period of time and don't correct the log book, then that would be a technicality not in your favor. Your supposed to notify Shannon of any errors (Same as for a passport, driving license etc) If you want to be really technical (And by-the-book unrealistic at the same time), you don't own the car if your details are incorrect on the log book.


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    #42
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    djimi wrote: »
    If your car is caught speeding then it's one of three things: either you were driving, you know who was driving your car, or the car was stolen. If you didn't report the car as stolen, and you cant/won't give the details of who was driving the car if it wasn't you, then the only other scenario is that you were driving the car yourself.

    OK.
    So what law requires me to remember (or note down) everyone who I lend my car to?
    I'm asking seriously - maybe there is such law, but I haven't seen it yet.


    I know it's not a big problem if you give your car to your wife once every 2 month to go shopping.

    But if you own a company and give company car to every of your 20 employees, there might be some confusion who was driving when.


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    #43
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Either the owner was speeding, or somone else was.

    If it wasn't the owner he/she needs to identify who it was.

    Seems quite reasonable.

    Yes. Seems reasonable if it's required by law to remember or have noted down who was driving when.

    But even if that's the case, there still remains the problem what to do, when nominated person denies to be driving or is just inaccessible or literally doesn't bother to accept or pay the fine.

    While first argument is reasonable, I completely can't understand why car registered owner should be liable someone else who he lend his car to.
    Why should the owner be prosecuted for speeding if he didn't do it.

    F.e. I have my friend from Spain visiting and I give him my car for few days. He is caught speeding.
    I receive speeding fine, and I fill in the form with my friend details including his address in Spain.
    He receives the fine, but decides to bin it, as he knows that fines from foreign countries are not enforcible, and even further he's not planning to visit Ireland anymore.

    So please tell me - why should I be penalised with fine and points for offence that someone else committed?


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    #44
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Bohrio wrote: »
    Its the owners responsibility and like someone has already said, its not up to the judge to prove if the owner was driving but for the owner to prove he wasnt.
    Yes and that's what's bothering me - because it's clearly against the most basic rule - "persumption of innocence".
    Why should I be prosecuted for something which wasn't proven I did commit.
    If the camera catches a car speeding the ticket will go to the registered owner as he is responsible for the car. Nobody else should be using the car without the owners consent.

    If you allow someone else to drive your car and he/she gets caught speeding and doesnt want to pay the fine then its something between you and him/her.
    I completely disagree.
    If I lend a car to someone I might be taking a risk of loosing this car.
    But I can't take responsibility of what that person does on the road.
    You say if he doesn't admit he was speeding, then I should be fined for speeding.

    What if that person kills someone on the road and runs away? And then doesn't admit doing it...
    Should I still be prosecuted for killing someone and running away, just because it was done with my car?

    Sorry, but it doesn't make any logical sense to me.


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    #45
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Doesn't work that way.

    It's not up to the Gardai to find the driver - it's up to the owner to identify
    the driver and get them accept the points/fine.

    If they won't do that it kicks back to the owner again.

    You are saying that by lending someone a car, you are taking full responsibility for whatever is done in this car by that person?


    Does it work the same with other things? If I lend my chainsaw to a neighbour, and he goes around the village and slaughters 100 people, then if he won't accept the fact he done that, then it will be my responsibility, as I should get him to accept the guilt?


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    #46
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    I used to spend a hell of a lot of time on this forum. Difficult to read a thread now without wanting to go mad. Time (and members) move on I guess. Pity.


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    #47
    ironclaw
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    CiniO wrote: »
    You are saying that by lending someone a car, you are taking full responsibility for whatever is done in this car by that person?

    Does it work the same with other things? If I lend my chainsaw to a neighbour, and he goes around the village and slaughters 100 people, then if he won't accept the fact he done that, then it will be my responsibility, as I should get him to accept the guilt?

    Key difference is proof of ownership.

    A car is 'licensed' to you by the fact that you have a log book. Its yours, its tangible. Same as a firearm in this county. You have a license for it. Its yours, its tangible to you. A chainsaw could be anyone's. Yes its yours, but it certainly does not fall under the category of the above. Its far harder to prove someone owned a particular chainsaw.

    If someone goes into town and re-enacts the chainsaw massacre, the onus is on you to prove it wasn't you (Should they tie the chainsaw back to you and the user isn't caught red handed). That's not to say your not innocent until proven guilty. Its the correlation of facts i.e. Your chainsaw was used, so there is a reasonable case it was you who did it. However if you could prove otherwise i.e. An alibi / taken without your consent, then your home and dry. That's the basis of all cases. The prosecution must make a case that it was you who did it.

    Same applies if someone used your gun. You must keep any firearm in this country in a safe, secure location. As such if its used, the onus is on your to prove it wasn't by you.

    So finally if a car, which is registered to you and requires your consent (i.e. The keys) to be used, then the onus is on your to prove you weren't driving. Its reasonable to assume a car being driven is under the control of the owner. If you give it to someone who isn't willing to accept a fine, then that's your problem not the State's.


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    #48
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    CiniO wrote: »
    OK.
    So what law requires me to remember (or note down) everyone who I lend my car to?
    I'm asking seriously - maybe there is such law, but I haven't seen it yet.


    I know it's not a big problem if you give your car to your wife once every 2 month to go shopping.

    But if you own a company and give company car to every of your 20 employees, there might be some confusion who was driving when.

    Yes, its up to you to know who was driving your and when. Im not sure how it works in the case of a company car; possibly the fine is issued to the company and its up to them to determine who was driving to recover costs, but in the case of a private car its not really all that difficult to remember who was driving your car and when. If you are in the habit of lending your car out to different people on a regular basis then you need to keep some sort of log of who had the car, because if they get caught speeding the fine is going to be coming through your door.


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    #49
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    CiniO wrote: »
    F.e. I have my friend from Spain visiting and I give him my car for few days. He is caught speeding.
    I receive speeding fine, and I fill in the form with my friend details including his address in Spain.
    He receives the fine, but decides to bin it, as he knows that fines from foreign countries are not enforcible, and even further he's not planning to visit Ireland anymore.

    So please tell me - why should I be penalised with fine and points for offence that someone else committed?

    If you are not sure that the person driving your car will be responsible enough to accept the fine then dont lend it to this person.

    Looking at your example coincidentally I had a friend over from Spain a few months ago, while he was here he got a speeding ticket, when the ticket arrived I gave his details as the person driver, he paid the fine (didnt get the points) and everything was sorted. Before he paid it and after I had sent the driver details back to whoever deals with this issues I received a letter saying that they have processed my ticket and that they were trying to locate the driver I had provided and that I didnt have to worry about the fine any longer.


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    #50
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,707 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    In the case of a company car, the fine is initially issued in the name of the company secretary and they then allocate out to the appropriate persons.


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    #51
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    CiniO wrote: »
    You are saying that by lending someone a car, you are taking full responsibility for whatever is done in this car by that person?


    Does it work the same with other things? If I lend my chainsaw to a neighbour, and he goes around the village and slaughters 100 people, then if he won't accept the fact he done that, then it will be my responsibility, as I should get him to accept the guilt?

    Less of the strawmen please.


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    #52
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Key difference is proof of ownership.

    A car is 'licensed' to you by the fact that you have a log book. Its yours, its tangible. Same as a firearm in this county. You have a license for it. Its yours, its tangible to you. A chainsaw could be anyone's. Yes its yours, but it certainly does not fall under the category of the above. Its far harder to prove someone owned a particular chainsaw.

    If someone goes into town and re-enacts the chainsaw massacre, the onus is on you to prove it wasn't you (Should they tie the chainsaw back to you and the user isn't caught red handed). That's not to say your not innocent until proven guilty. Its the correlation of facts i.e. Your chainsaw was used, so there is a reasonable case it was you who did it. However if you could prove otherwise i.e. An alibi / taken without your consent, then your home and dry. That's the basis of all cases. The prosecution must make a case that it was you who did it.
    I'm home and dry if I can provide alibi. But if I can't then I can be still liable, even though only thing linking me with the case is my chainsaw. And I can be prosecuted without being proven to do it?
    If strongly can't believe that's how it works.
    Same applies if someone used your gun. You must keep any firearm in this country in a safe, secure location. As such if its used, the onus is on your to prove it wasn't by you.
    Same thing.
    While indeed surely you have to keep gun secured and not let it to anyone, but I can't see how can you be automatically guilty of shooting someone, just because it was done with your gun.
    I believe it must be proven it was you who pulled the trigger.


    So finally if a car, which is registered to you and requires your consent (i.e. The keys) to be used, then the onus is on your to prove you weren't driving. Its reasonable to assume a car being driven is under the control of the owner. If you give it to someone who isn't willing to accept a fine, then that's your problem not the State's.

    Yes - back to the topic.
    OK - say you have a very good friend. You lend him your car no problem many times.
    One time he causes fatal accident, and runs away and disappears.

    Are you trying to tell me, that you would happily accept to be charged with causing fatal accident, just because your friend let you down?
    Because from what you are saying, in that case it would be up to you to prove it wasn't you driving.
    Assume you don't have an alibi, and you end up in jail, because they automatically assume - "your car - you driving" - unless you can prove otherwise.
    Do you think it's normal? Would you just take it as a lesson learnt not to trust even best friend?


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    #53
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    djimi wrote: »
    Yes, its up to you to know who was driving your and when. Im not sure how it works in the case of a company car; possibly the fine is issued to the company and its up to them to determine who was driving to recover costs, but in the case of a private car its not really all that difficult to remember who was driving your car and when. If you are in the habit of lending your car out to different people on a regular basis then you need to keep some sort of log of who had the car, because if they get caught speeding the fine is going to be coming through your door.

    OK. But is there any law in regards that?


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    #54
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Bohrio wrote: »
    If you are not sure that the person driving your car will be responsible enough to accept the fine then dont lend it to this person.


    I can't understand why?

    So can you list me what should I be aware when lending someone a car?

    I though that all I'm risking is my car (I can loose it as person I'm lending might crash it, steal it, destroy, etc).
    Never in my life I would though I'd be responsible for actions of that person.
    And I still don't believe it.


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