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Alcohol Sponsorship

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13

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    #62
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Norway is different when it comes to price,access to alcohol,smugling of alcohol,geography,thats why its different
    Not all the above are the effects of geography.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Alot of people make their own brew,or smugle alcohol vs buying,because of high prices and taxes.
    An effect of price and market control. Would you not say there is smuggling already across borders of Republic of Ireland? Illegal alcohol too. Poitin? I'm saying that instances such as these would increase with the all too non-specific proposals being touted in the press and in Govt Buildings. Look up 'cross-border organised crime' on the Garda website for examples of the scales of operation.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    And theres a difference in geography as well.
    People in the Northern counties are living a bit more isolated than the rest of the country,and prefer the homebrew more than the southern counties
    A generalism and easily comparable to Ireland where there are plenty of rural isolated homesteads.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    And also have to face the wintermonths in total darkness and the problems that comes with it,and many tend to alcohol,drugs etc
    That happens for sure. Around one fifth of the population lives in the north and one of the problems they face is a sh*tty winter.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    The eastern counties,closer to Oslo prefer going to Sweden,Denmark for their alcohol,because its cheaper,and many gamble on smugling as well
    Another effect of strict control on alcohol sector.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    In the western counties,stavanger,Bergen,Ålesund etc,many people work in the offshore industry,and have more strict toleranse towards alcohol,because the oil industry demands it
    Again, a little subjective, ignoring many variables in that particular field such as shiftwork, part-time work. Ever been to any of these places? Bergen's Brygge area and Stavanger not exactly safe places to walk late on weekend night.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Theres a lot of factors that comes into this,and like i said i could go on about this,but it doesnt give a hole picture of the country,because many factors comes into it
    That's right, many factors, of which many can be attributed to the government's controls on the alcohol vending industry, which is why they are under review again.


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    #63
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    I've noticed the creepy way that they have been attempting to get rid of smoking altogether.

    I'm not sure why you think they are being creepy about it: ending smoking of Tobacco is a well-publicized, mainstream goal.

    http://www.dohc.ie/publications/towards_a_tobacco_free_society.html


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    #64
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    So why target sports?

    Sport is good for kids. We encourage them to take part in sports to get exercise, socialise, learn teamwork, and skull pints afterwards 'til they puke.


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    #65
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Sport is good for kids. We encourage them to take part in sports to get exercise, socialise, learn teamwork, and skull pints afterwards 'til they puke.
    That's hardly what they're taught.
    Revenue from sponsors for TV rights and tournament rights goes to funding sports clubs, facilities and development programmes.


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    #66
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Sport is good for kids. We encourage them to take part in sports to get exercise, socialise, learn teamwork, and skull pints afterwards 'til they puke.
    Plenty of people will go for a pint after a local rugby or a GAA match. If some of them go too far and end up in a pool of their own vomit after these matches, I would suggest it's unlikely to have anything to do with sports advertising.

    It just doesn't stand to reason that in the event of the Heineken Cup Final being referred to as the European Cup Final, that heavy drinkers would be sipping on rock shandies.

    But lets leave our instinctive beliefs aside. There is no scientific research which to say that sports advertising causes heavy drinking.

    Advertising might influence which alcoholic brand you purchase over another brand. Advertising might even influence whether you go to the pub or not.
    But choosing Heineken over Carlsberg, or going to the pub for a few drinks are not dangerous activities.

    Drinking to excess on a regular basis is the problem. If someone wants to ban advertising of alcohol in sports, they should present the evidence for doing so. If we are to risk serious funding shortfalls for sports organizations, we should be demanding strong evidence first.


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    #67
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    If we are to risk serious funding shortfalls for sports organizations, we should be demanding strong evidence first.

    If we are to risk the possibility that young people are being encouraged to drink by the association of alcohol and sports, we should demand strong evidence that enriching the GAA and IRFU is...

    I can't even finish that sentence with anything remotely sensible.


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    #68
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    I'm not surprised. There's no prima facie reason to believe that sports marketing leads to binge drinking or heavy drinking. The burden of proof lies with people making that assertion.

    Drinking is not like cigarette consumption, which is dangerous from the get-go. The simple fact of ordinary alcohol consumption in itself is not the problem, and all the research shows is a small link to consumption.


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    #69
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Not all the above are the effects of geography.


    An effect of price and market control. Would you not say there is smuggling already across borders of Republic of Ireland? Illegal alcohol too. Poitin? I'm saying that instances such as these would increase with the all too non-specific proposals being touted in the press and in Govt Buildings. Look up 'cross-border organised crime' on the Garda website for examples of the scales of operation.


    A generalism and easily comparable to Ireland where there are plenty of rural isolated homesteads.


    That happens for sure. Around one fifth of the population lives in the north and one of the problems they face is a sh*tty winter.


    Another effect of strict control on alcohol sector.


    Again, a little subjective, ignoring many variables in that particular field such as shiftwork, part-time work. Ever been to any of these places? Bergen's Brygge area and Stavanger not exactly safe places to walk late on weekend night.


    That's right, many factors, of which many can be attributed to the government's controls on the alcohol vending industry, which is why they are under review again.

    An effect of price and market control. Would you not say there is smuggling already across borders of Republic of Ireland? Illegal alcohol too. Poitin? I'm saying that instances such as these would increase with the all too non-specific proposals being touted in the press and in Govt Buildings. Look up 'cross-border organised crime' on the Garda website for examples of the scales of operation

    I am aware of the drug,alcohol smugling across the northern borders.And afterall Ireland is an Island,so its difficult to keep control all over.
    But Norway also have borders to Russia;Finland and Sweden,and theres alot of smuggling across the borders there as well.
    The strange thing about Norwegian law,is that you are allowed to brew for home use,but sale and distillation is illegal.:confused:

    A generalism and easily comparable to Ireland where there are plenty of rural isolated homesteads.

    But the strange thing is that there is usually a pub;)
    Even out in Connemara in the middle of nowhere,you just go by the Guiness signposts.

    Again, a little subjective, ignoring many variables in that particular field such as shiftwork, part-time work. Ever been to any of these places? Bergen's Brygge area and Stavanger not exactly safe places to walk late on weekend night.

    I am Norwegian,yes i live in Stavanger,and i have been out many a weekend in Stavanger and Bergen,but i have never felt that it was not safe to go out there.
    Its nothing worse than Dublin,Cork,Limerick,Mullingar in a weekend.
    But then again maybe its got something to do with me beiing 6`3 and 250 pounds:D
    I know for a fact that the "viking" has a tendency to come out in the weekends,but it usually goes over when they have gone past the "to much to drink limit",but i have seen Irish "Celtic warriors" doing the same.
    And yes its not easy to compare two countries this way,cause both have their own drinking habits and cultural differences at the end of the day.


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    #70
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    I am aware of the drug,alcohol smugling across the northern borders.And afterall Ireland is an Island,so its difficult to keep control all over.
    But Norway also have borders to Russia;Finland and Sweden,and theres alot of smuggling across the borders there as well.
    The strange thing about Norwegian law,is that you are allowed to brew for home use,but sale and distillation is illegal.:confused:
    But the strange thing is that there is usually a pub;) Even out in Connemara in the middle of nowhere,you just go by the Guiness signposts
    The government here are very reluctant to empower paramilitary and organised criminal rings with a bigger black economy to operate within in addition to the substantial situation already evident.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    I am Norwegian,yes i live in Stavanger,and i have been out many a weekend in Stavanger and Bergen,but i have never felt that it was not safe to go out there.
    Its nothing worse than Dublin,Cork,Limerick,Mullingar in a weekend.
    But then again maybe its got something to do with me beiing 6`3 and 250 pounds:D
    You're agreeing with me here. I lived in Norway myself, by the way.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    I know for a fact that the "viking" has a tendency to come out in the weekends,but it usually goes over when they have gone past the "to much to drink limit",but i have seen Irish "Celtic warriors" doing the same
    Again, you're agreeing with me.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    And yes its not easy to compare two countries this way,cause both have their own drinking habits and cultural differences at the end of the day.
    You just described similarities between the two, not differences.


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    #71
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The government here are very reluctant to empower paramilitary and organised criminal rings with a bigger black economy to operate within in addition to the substantial situation already evident.


    You're agreeing with me here. I lived in Norway myself, by the way.


    Again, you're agreeing with me.


    You just described similarities between the two, not differences.

    And since you are saying its no differences between Norway and Ireland,what is then the similarities??
    and if you have lived in Norway,and I have lived in Ireland as well for over 10 years,by the way,you should really know there is differences between Norway and Ireland?


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    #72
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    And since you are saying its no differences between Norway and Ireland,what is then the similarities?

    and if you have lived in Norway,and I have lived in Ireland as well for over 10 years,by the way,you should really know there is differences between Norway and Ireland?

    You've already described some of the similarities yourself which are pertinant to what I was saying in the first place.


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    #73
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You've already described some of the similarities yourself which are pertinant to what I was saying in the first place.

    Then how come Ireland is in 2 place of top 10 countries that consume the most alcohol!Norway is not even on the list?

    Renowned for its drinking culture and pubs, Ireland is the world's second biggest consumer of alcohol per capita.

    Alcohol consumption grew a modest 0.4 percent in 2012 over the previous year with beer accounting for over 72 percent of all alcoholic drinks consumed. Wine is second at 13 percent, while perry and cider take up a sizeable 10 percent, more than in any country in the top 10 list. Ireland is home to the number two cider maker in the world - C&C - makers of Magners.

    High taxes on alcohol of up to 41 percent has led to a fall in alcohol sales in Ireland with the Drinks Industry Group of Ireland saying in a April report that the volume of pub sales has dropped by nearly one third in the past five years. The average consumption per adult is also reported to have decreased by 19 percent since 2001.
    :confused:

    It's no difference between Norway and Ireland?or is it just me??


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    #74
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Then how come Ireland is in 2 place of top 10 countries that consume the most alcohol!Norway is not even on the list?
    Which list exactly?
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Renowned for its drinking culture and pubs, Ireland is the world's second biggest consumer of alcohol per capita
    Since 2000, alcohol consumption has dropped, as you go on to tell me below.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Alcohol consumption grew a modest 0.4 percent in 2012 over the previous year with beer accounting for over 72 percent of all alcoholic drinks consumed. Wine is second at 13 percent, while perry and cider take up a sizeable 10 percent, more than in any country in the top 10 list. Ireland is home to the number two cider maker in the world - C&C - makers of Magners.

    High taxes on alcohol of up to 41 percent has led to a fall in alcohol sales in Ireland with the Drinks Industry Group of Ireland saying in a April report that the volume of pub sales has dropped by nearly one third in the past five years. The average consumption per adult is also reported to have decreased by 19 percent since 2001
    Again you're actually assisting my point. The effect of taxation is debatable however as solid interpretation of this claim would have to be proven, given the amount of other factors involves. Could be true, could be bluff.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    It's no difference between Norway and Ireland?or is it just me??
    It was you who said, as pointed out in a previous post, that they were the same.
    My point originates from the fact that stringent policy on the sector involving alcohol sales is seeing an increase in consumption, smuggling and illegal production in one country. This country on the other hand sees a decrease despite permission of sponsorship and advertising in the sector (the point of the proposals by certain lobbies inside and outside Govt Buildings in the first place).


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    #75
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Which list exactly?

    You know how to read?


    Since 2000, alcohol consumption has dropped, as you go on to tell me below.

    But what's that in comparison to Norway?


    Again you're actually assisting my point. The effect of taxation is debatable however as solid interpretation of this claim would have to be proven, given the amount of other factors involves. Could be true, could be bluff.

    If I am assisting your point,how come you claim it's increasing in Norway?And if it is,it's nothing in comparison to the Irish consumption anyway.


    It was you who said, as pointed out in a previous post, that they were the same.
    My point originates from the fact that stringent policy on the sector involving alcohol sales is seeing an increase in consumption, smuggling and illegal production in one country. This country on the other hand sees a decrease despite permission of sponsorship and advertising in the sector (the point of the proposals by certain lobbies inside and outside Govt Buildings in the first place).

    Then most people's financial situation is maybe not the best these days either,you don't think that might be one of the reasons for the decrease in consumption in Ireland?

    JustinDee;85006988]Which list exactly?

    You know how to read?


    Since 2000, alcohol consumption has dropped, as you go on to tell me below.

    But what's that in comparison to Norways consumption?


    Again you're actually assisting my point. The effect of taxation is debatable however as solid interpretation of this claim would have to be proven, given the amount of other factors involves. Could be true, could be bluff.

    If I am assisting your point,how come you claim it's increasing in Norway?And if it is,it's nothing in comparison to the Irish consumption anyway.


    It was you who said, as pointed out in a previous post, that they were the same.
    My point originates from the fact that stringent policy on the sector involving alcohol sales is seeing an increase in consumption, smuggling and illegal production in one country. This country on the other hand sees a decrease despite permission of sponsorship and advertising in the sector (the point of the proposals by certain lobbies inside and outside Govt Buildings in the first place).

    Then most people's financial situation is maybe not the best these days either,you don't think that might be one of the reasons for the decrease in consumption in Ireland?
    And how many pubs is there per city,town in Ireland in comparison to Norway?
    I am pretty sure you noticed that difference last time you visited Norway?.


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    #76
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    You know how to read?
    No need for childishness. I asked for you to tell me which list you are quoting.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    But what's that in comparison to Norways consumption?
    Going the opposite way, is what it is doing.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    If I am assisting your point,how come you claim it's increasing in Norway?And if it is,it's nothing in comparison to the Irish consumption anyway
    Alcohol consumption in Norway is increasing according to national public health institute, department of health, the minister for health and the WHO. In Ireland it is decreasing as indicated in CSO statistics, HSE and by WHO.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Then most people's financial situation is maybe not the best these days either,you don't think that might be one of the reasons for the decrease in consumption in Ireland?
    And how many pubs is there per city,town in Ireland in comparison to Norway?
    I am pretty sure you noticed that difference last time you visited Norway?.
    Again you're actually proving my point.


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    #77
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    No need for childishness. I asked for you to tell me which list you are quoting.


    Going the opposite way, is what it is doing.


    Alcohol consumption in Norway is increasing according to national public health institute, department of health, the minister for health and the WHO. In Ireland it is decreasing as indicated in CSO statistics, HSE and by WHO.


    Again you're actually proving my point.

    No need for childishness. I asked for you to tell me which list you are quoting.

    google 10 countries with the highest alcohol consumption


    Going the opposite way, is what it is doing.

    Yes,it it is higher,but not higher than the total consumption in each country.


    Alcohol consumption in Norway is increasing according to national public health institute, department of health, the minister for health and the WHO. In Ireland it is decreasing as indicated in CSO statistics, HSE and by WHO.

    The increase in Norway is because more and more people brew wine at home,and the financial situation havent been effected by the financial crisis.


    Again you're actually proving my point.
    Just glad i can help.
    But if you look at the recent statistics,Ireland have a higher consumption per capita,than Norway,and have also had a higher increase than norway.
    Its just in the last cople of years there has been a slight increase in Norway,and decrease in Ireland,and this has all to do with the financial crisis.

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/02/06/index.html?contentType=/ns/StatisticalPublication,/ns/Chapter&itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-25-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/23056088&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html



    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/02/06/g2-06-01.html?contentType=/ns/StatisticalPublication,/ns/Chapter&itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-25-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/23056088&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html


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    #78
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Its just in the last cople of years there has been a slight increase in Norway,and decrease in Ireland,and this has all to do with the financial crisis.

    Your own linked OECD chart shows a 24% decrease in Ireland between 1980 and 2010, with only Iceland and Cyprus posting bigger decreases.


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    #79
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    google 10 countries with the highest alcohol consumption
    I'll just guess you went for whatever wikipedia threw your way via a keyword search then, in which case its the WHO report from 2011.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Yes,it it is higher,but not higher than the total consumption in each country
    You're ignoring the trends of the past 13 years. If they continue this gap will continue to narrow. As the Irish decrease begins in 2000/2001 year (WHO and CSO), the claim by yourself that it is linked to recession is not convincing.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    The increase in Norway is because more and more people brew wine at home,and the financial situation havent been effected by the financial crisis
    First of all, the increase in Norway is due to more than one factor, with the main, according to the earlier mentioned WHO report from 2011, being an increase in binge drinking. As you would most likely guess yourself, another factor in common with the Irish, is being true to type and habit. Weekend nights out the same. Forspill, out on town, nachspill. Binge drinking is an huge part of drinking culture not just in Ireland but in Norway too. You've also mentioned this when comparing similarities between various cities and the likes of Dublin, Cork etc.
    FHI voice concern over the sharp increase in alcohol consumption amongst adolescents. The latest action plan by the Norwegian dept of health on alcohol abuse specifically devotes a large part of its budget on targetting the binge drinking amongst mid-late teens-mid 20s. A study was undertaken in 2011 to look into the relationship of alcohol consumption/problem drinking with the receipt of disability social assistance and sykepenger, indicating a sharp rise in 'problem drinking' but at a slower rate to overall alcohol consumption.

    Wine consumption is up because of wider availability in the Norwegian market since the late 90s according to the Norwegian equivalent of CSO, SSB. Beer and spirits consumption comparatively down with one notable factor common between both in that smuggling and cross-border shopping can only account for goods seized.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Just glad i can help.
    But if you look at the recent statistics,Ireland have a higher consumption per capita,than Norway,and have also had a higher increase than norway.
    Its just in the last cople of years there has been a slight increase in Norway,and decrease in Ireland,and this has all to do with the financial crisis
    Ireland's decrease in overall consumption has begun the trend since 2001. Not in the "last couple of years". Norway's increase has been significant during the same period. According Norwegian Institute for Alcohol and Drug Research, this increase up to 2008 has been at an overall rate of 24% across all demographics but carried by the 20-25 age group.
    Ireland, according to the WHO, records a bigger percentage of its age 15+ population as abstainers than Norway (25.5% v 10.0%).
    Also, I'd re-read your source material if I were you.

    If France is deemed a valid comparison somehow by the pro-reform demanding price floor/sponsorship/promotional ban, then Norway is more than qualified as a comparison for the other side of the argument especially with similarities pointed out (then backed up by yourself).


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    #80
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    I'll just guess you went for whatever wikipedia threw your way via a keyword search then, in which case its the WHO report from 2011.


    You're ignoring the trends of the past 13 years. If they continue this gap will continue to narrow. As the Irish decrease begins in 2000/2001 year (WHO and CSO), the claim by yourself that it is linked to recession is not convincing.


    First of all, the increase in Norway is due to more than one factor, with the main, according to the earlier mentioned WHO report from 2011, being an increase in binge drinking. As you would most likely guess yourself, another factor in common with the Irish, is being true to type and habit. Weekend nights out the same. Forspill, out on town, nachspill. Binge drinking is an huge part of drinking culture not just in Ireland but in Norway too. You've also mentioned this when comparing similarities between various cities and the likes of Dublin, Cork etc.
    FHI voice concern over the sharp increase in alcohol consumption amongst adolescents. The latest action plan by the Norwegian dept of health on alcohol abuse specifically devotes a large part of its budget on targetting the binge drinking amongst mid-late teens-mid 20s. A study was undertaken in 2011 to look into the relationship of alcohol consumption/problem drinking with the receipt of disability social assistance and sykepenger, indicating a sharp rise in 'problem drinking' but at a slower rate to overall alcohol consumption.

    Wine consumption is up because of wider availability in the Norwegian market since the late 90s according to the Norwegian equivalent of CSO, SSB. Beer and spirits consumption comparatively down with one notable factor common between both in that smuggling and cross-border shopping can only account for goods seized.


    Ireland's decrease in overall consumption has begun the trend since 2001. Not in the "last couple of years". Norway's increase has been significant during the same period. According Norwegian Institute for Alcohol and Drug Research, this increase up to 2008 has been at an overall rate of 24% across all demographics but carried by the 20-25 age group.
    Ireland, according to the WHO, records a bigger percentage of its age 15+ population as abstainers than Norway (25.5% v 10.0%).
    Also, I'd re-read your source material if I were you.

    If France is deemed a valid comparison somehow by the pro-reform demanding price floor/sponsorship/promotional ban, then Norway is more than qualified as a comparison for the other side of the argument especially with similarities pointed out (then backed up by yourself).

    The thing i am trying to point out here,is that Ireland have a much larger consumption per capita then Norway.
    Even if there was an increase in Norway,it wouldnt go near the total consumption in Ireland.
    And according to these it seems like Ireland has a bit more increase than Norway.

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/index.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/12-02-02-g1.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/12-02-02-g2.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html


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    #81
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Your own linked OECD chart shows a 24% decrease in Ireland between 1980 and 2010, with only Iceland and Cyprus posting bigger decreases.

    Yes ,but Ireland still have a larger consumption than Norway per capita.


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    #82
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Yes ,but Ireland still have a larger consumption than Norway per capita.

    So when you said:

    "Its just in the last couple of years there has been a slight increase in Norway,and decrease in Ireland,and this has all to do with the financial crisis"

    You meant that there has been a massive reduction in Ireland compared to 30 years ago which has nothing to do with the financial crisis, but we are still at a higher level than Norway. Fair enough.


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    #83
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    The thing i am trying to point out here,is that Ireland have a much larger consumption per capita then Norway.
    Even if there was an increase in Norway,it wouldnt go near the total consumption in Ireland.
    And according to these it seems like Ireland has a bit more increase than Norway.

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/index.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/12-02-02-g1.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

    http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2011-en/12/02/02/12-02-02-g2.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2011-108-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/18147364&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html

    You are ignoring the trends, and I'd say purposely so. The rising trend is what has the Norwegian government worried enough to undertake a revised initiative against alcohol abuse.
    Sitting on one's hands and saying its not as bad as elsewhere is not effective. Hence the new urgency in the Norwegian Health Dept's policy review on that sector.


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    #84
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You are ignoring the trends, and I'd say purposely so. The rising trend is what has the Norwegian government worried enough to undertake a revised initiative against alcohol abuse.
    Sitting on one's hands and saying its not as bad as elsewhere is not effective. Hence the new urgency in the Norwegian Health Dept's policy review on that sector.

    Thats nothing new in Norway,the taxes on alcohol have been around for quite sometime now.And yes i am sure there is an increase in consumption,but i think that trend also goes for Ireland who has had an 24% increase.
    And norway have had an increase in 0.2 liters per adult person 15+.Total average was 6.8 liters of alcohol in 2009 and is now 7 liters per adult.Not very alarming,when you see that Ireland has a average of 11,6 liters per adult person.

    From 1980 to 2010, average alcohol consumption in Europe decreased by an average of 15 per cent, while consumption in Ireland over that period increased by 24 per cent
    http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/how-much-do-we-drink/


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    #85
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Thats nothing new in Norway,the taxes on alcohol have been around for quite sometime now.And yes i am sure there is an increase in consumption,but i think that trend also goes for Ireland who has had an 24% increase
    It has NOT. You are being equally subjective with your timeline. Since 2000 (you've already tried to attribute this to the recession), consumption has decreased as per statistics provided by the WHO and the CSO.
    It is new in Norway as the increase rate is unprecedented. This is why a new programme on alcohol action was revised two years after it was introducted ie. it was deemed not effective.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    From 1980 to 2010, average alcohol consumption in Europe decreased by an average of 15 per cent, while consumption in Ireland over that period increased by 24 per cent
    http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/how-much-do-we-drink/
    No sources flagged on that page.


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    #86
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    It has NOT. You are being equally subjective with your timeline. Since 2000 (you've already tried to attribute this to the recession), consumption has decreased as per statistics provided by the WHO and the CSO.
    It is new in Norway as the increase rate is unprecedented. This is why a new programme on alcohol action was revised two years after it was introducted ie. it was deemed not effective.


    No sources flagged on that page.

    Well from 1980 untill no yes,from 2001 untill now no.;)
    Yes,i am sure theres always an exuse in Norway to put on more taxes.
    But you are missing the big picture here.
    IN IRELAND THE TOTAL CONSUMPTION PER AULT IS 11,6 LITERS OF ALCOHOL PER YEAR.
    IN NORWAY ITS 6,8 LITERS PER ADULT.
    Thats 4,8 liters per adult in the difference.
    Norway also had a 20% increase from 1993 untill 2000,but still the total is 6.8 liters per adult.
    The average in the EU is 11 liters per adult,so Norway is way below the average.

    And if you read the ESPAD report The European School Survey Project on Alcohol and Other Drugs

    You will see there is decrease in Both Norway and Ireland

    http://www.espad.org/en/Reports--Documents/ESPAD-Reports/


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    #87
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Well from 1980 untill no yes,from 2001 untill now no.;)
    Yes,i am sure theres always an exuse in Norway to put on more taxes.
    But you are missing the big picture here.
    IN IRELAND THE TOTAL CONSUMPTION PER AULT IS 11,6 LITERS OF ALCOHOL PER YEAR.
    IN NORWAY ITS 6,8 LITERS PER ADULT.
    Thats 4,8 liters per adult in the difference.
    Norway also had a 20% increase from 1993 untill 2000,but still the total is 6.8 liters per adult.
    The average in the EU is 11 liters per adult,so Norway is way below the average
    And again...ignoring how it has gone.
    Seriously, you ignore what your government is not, and all in a country with such rigid regulations on the drinks industry, especially in areas you've pointed out are similar. Remember the point of the debate: Promotion/Sponsorship in drinks industry proposals. They're proven to be largely irrelevant, particularly to the scale that the alarmists are hijacking them.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    And if you read the ESPAD report The European School Survey Project on Alcohol and Other Drugs
    You will see there is decrease in Both Norway and Ireland
    http://www.espad.org/en/Reports--Documents/ESPAD-Reports/[/QUOTE]
    That is a survey amongst students
    Also I'd suggest you read the relevant part of the full version before going any further, as you are going to end up contradicting your own points again.


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    #88
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    nesf wrote: »
    You're assuming the advertising is what's starting people/keeping them continuing where the social pressure to consume alcohol in this country is very, very high (I constantly get handed beers and whiskies by relatives even though they know I don't drink and that it screws with my meds badly).

    Might these be connected though? Alcohol advertising impacts on the level of drinking, which impacts on social pressure to drink, which impacts on the amount of people who start drinking because of that pressure.
    These impacts are probably not linear and there is definitely lots of feedback of these pressures, and others, happening, though.


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    #89
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    And again...ignoring how it has gone.
    Seriously, you ignore what your government is not, and all in a country with such rigid regulations on the drinks industry, especially in areas you've pointed out are similar. Remember the point of the debate: Promotion/Sponsorship in drinks industry proposals. They're proven to be largely irrelevant, particularly to the scale that the alarmists are hijacking them.


    That is a survey amongst students
    Also I'd suggest you read the relevant part of the full version before going any further, as you are going to end up contradicting your own points again.

    Like i said 3 times before,you have to see it in the big picture.
    The alcohol consumption is way higher in Ireland than in Norway,so the 2 countries cant be compared.
    Yes i am aware that weekend drinking and binge drinking happens,i believe we all have gone trough that in our teenage days.
    But the difference is in the total consumption of alcohol,not by age groups.
    And since you dont want to know about ESPAD,its funny how Norway uses there dats in there statistics.And i thought the students drank more than most,i used to when i was a student(RUSS) anyway,but maybe thats different in Ireland.
    Maybe you should read this,i am sure you understand Norwegian,since you claim to have lived in Norway.

    http://www.sirus.no/Forbruk+av+alkohol+i+Norge+f%C3%B8r+og+n%C3%A5.d25-SMJLOYS.ips


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    #90
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    long range shooter wrote: »
    Like i said 3 times before,you have to see it in the big picture.
    The alcohol consumption is way higher in Ireland than in Norway,so the 2 countries cant be compared.
    Yes i am aware that weekend drinking and binge drinking happens,i believe we all have gone trough that in our teenage days.
    But the difference is in the total consumption of alcohol,not by age groups
    The "bigger picture" is watching how the situation has gone and summising how it can go in future, and if for the worst (as in Norway), how to deal with it.
    Your example below primarily concerns an age-group.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    And since you dont want to know about ESPAD,its funny how Norway uses there dats in there statistics.And i thought the students drank more than most,i used to when i was a student(RUSS) anyway,but maybe thats different in Ireland
    Students are a part of the demographs being covered, not a representitive sector. Again, you bring up a point that actually goes against what you're saying when you mention students drinking like idiots during Russ.
    long range shooter wrote: »
    Maybe you should read this,i am sure you understand Norwegian,since you claim to have lived in Norway.
    http://www.sirus.no/Forbruk+av+alkohol+i+Norge+f%C3%B8r+og+n%C3%A5.d25-SMJLOYS.ips
    I don't need to "claim" anything. I lived in Norway for almost six years, and am fluent in Norwegian thanks. Two of the studies I've mentioned to you are via SIRUS.
    Norwegian govt uses a host of research bodies in addition, and findings have been put to you already. Plus once more, read properly through the links you're giving. They're not actually doing your case any good.


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    #91
    long range shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭long range shooter


    JustinDee wrote: »
    The "bigger picture" is watching how the situation has gone and summising how it can go in future, and if for the worst (as in Norway), how to deal with it.
    Your example below primarily concerns an age-group.


    Students are a part of the demographs being covered, not a representitive sector. Again, you bring up a point that actually goes against what you're saying when you mention students drinking like idiots during Russ.


    I don't need to "claim" anything. I lived in Norway for almost six years, and am fluent in Norwegian thanks. Two of the studies I've mentioned to you are via SIRUS.
    Norwegian govt uses a host of research bodies in addition, and findings have been put to you already. Plus once more, read properly through the links you're giving. They're not actually doing your case any good.

    My case is quite good thanks,but its no use discussing with someone who claims its no difference in alcohol consumption in Ireland and Norway.
    Its like comparing the pope to the president of the USA.:rolleyes:
    Like i said for the 4th time,the consumption in Ireland is way higher in Ireland than in Norway.You have to look at it in the big picture.
    Because it has been an increase in alcohol consumption in Norway,doesnt effect the total consumption of the whole country.
    The figures from WHO

    Maybe this is good enough for you then:rolleyes:

    The figures speaks for it self

    http://www.actis.no/no/nyhetsarkiv/Nedgang+i+Europas+alkoholforbruk.b7C_wlfS5c.ips

    http://apps.who.int/gho/data/node.main.A1025?lang=en


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