European Cups' Pool Stage Draw - Wednesday 2:30pm

thomond2006

Reigning champions, Toulon, will be the first club allocated a pool for the 2013/14 Heineken Cup when the draw for the composition of the six pools for the 19th tournament takes place at the Aviva Stadium, Dublin on Wednesday, 5 June (2.30pm).

The pool draw for the 2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup will also take place in Dublin on the same day and both draws will be streamed live on www.ercrugby.com and will be offered to international broadcasters.
Among the 24 qualified clubs for the Heineken Cup, Toulon are appearing for the first time in Tier 1, along with the 2013 defeated finalists, ASM Clermont Auvergne.

Reigning Amlin Challenge Cup champions, and three-time Heineken Cup winners, Leinster Rugby, remain at the top of the ERC European rankings, and they are joined in Tier 1 by Toulon, Clermont, Toulouse, Munster Rugby and Ulster Rugby.

Once the Tier 1 clubs have each been allocated a different pool, no club from the same tier will be drawn in the same pool, and no pool will have more than one club from the same country with the exception of France, as there are seven French clubs in next season's tournament.

Racing Metro 92, as the lowest-ranked of the seven French clubs, will be drawn last into a pool with another French club.

Meanwhile, former tournament winners Biarritz Olympique, Bath Rugby, London Wasps and Sale Sharks are among the line-up of 20 Amlin Challenge Cup clubs from six countries who will be keenly awaiting the outcome of the pool draw for the 2013/14 tournament.

Also included are the 2013 defeated finalists, Stade Francais Paris, as well as London Irish and Worcester Warriors who have also been losing finalists.

The Amlin Challenge Cup clubs will be drawn into five pools and each pool will contain four clubs. Each pool will include one club from each of the four tiers and no two clubs from the same country will be drawn in the same pool with the exceptions of France as there are seven French clubs, and England, as there are six English clubs in next season's tournament.

The tiers are based on the ERC European rankings system over the past four seasons in the Heineken Cup, the knockout stage of the Amlin Challenge Cup, and also on participation in the pool stage of the Amlin Challenge Cup over the same four-season period.

The rankings aim to reward and incentivise clubs who consistently perform at the highest level in European competition over four seasons. For the purposes of the Heineken Cup pool draw, the rankings are used to allocate the clubs which have qualified into four tiers of six clubs and to ensure the highest-ranked clubs are separated in the six pools.

2013/14 Heineken Cup clubs and tiers

Tier 1 - Leinster Rugby, Toulon, Toulouse, ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ulster Rugby, Munster Rugby

Tier 2 - Northampton Saints, Harlequins, Cardiff Blues, Saracens, Leicester Tigers, Perpignan

Tier 3 - Edinburgh Rugby, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow Warriors, Montpellier, Connacht Rugby

Tier 4 - Gloucester Rugby, Castres Olympique, Racing Metro 92, Exeter Chiefs, Benetton Treviso, Zebre

• The draw for the 2013/14 Heineken Cup pools will take place at the Aviva Stadium on Wednesday, 5 June following the Amlin Challenge Cup draw at 2.30pm

2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup clubs and tiers

Tier 1 - Biarritz Olympique PB, Stade Francais Paris, London Wasps, Bath Rugby, Brive

Tier 2 - London Irish, Sale Sharks, Newport Gwent Dragons, Newcastle Falcons, Rugby Viadana

Tier 3 - Bayonne, I Cavalieri Prato, Worcester Warriors, Bordeaux-Bègles, Cammi Rugby Calvisano

Tier 4 - Grenoble, Mogliano Rugby, Oyonnax, Bucharest Wolves, Spanish representative

• The draw for the 2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup pools will take place at the Aviva Stadium on Wednesday, 5 June at 2.30pm

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/21242.php#.Ua3mS9LVCMU

For next season the draws will be made for the European pool stages tomorrow. For the first time in a few seasons Tier 1 contains no easy sides, previous Tier 1 sides like Biarritz and Cardiff have fallen away because of poor recent results in Europe.

Given Castres are now the Top14 champions I don't think anyone will want them in the draw, although they rarely make an impact in Europe there might be more pressure on them to perform now they are a title holder.

Remember that there must be an English and French club in every pool, also as Racing are the lowest ranked French club they must be drawn with another French club. Teams from the other countries (Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy) cannot draw each other, meaning Connacht cannot draw any Irish province in Tier 1 and will face one of Toulon, Clermont or Toulouse.

So in that vein, the best draw (IMO!) for Munster/Ulster/Leinster would be: Perpignan, Edinburgh, Exeter

A worst draw for Munster/Ulster/Leinster would be: Leicester, Montpellier, Racing Métro

The best draw for Connacht: Toulouse, Cardiff Blues, Gloucester

The worst draw for Connacht: Toulon/Clermont, Leicester, Racing Métro

The draw will be streamed live here: http://www.ercrugby.com/

irishbucsfan

Where should I go to follow this. Will the ERC be live tweeting?

Fireball07

Cardiff really look out of place among the 2nd seeds, but if Munster/Leinster/Ulster draws them, then they'll automatically get Montpellier (because there's no English side in tier 3), who are a much more formidable side.


I wouldn't fear any of those 2nd tier sides though, any of them should be beatable at least once.

Swan Curry

It's great to see three Irish clubs in Tier 1,really bodes well for the future.If Leicester get off to a slow start with their new coach,they would be a good second seed to get.

tolosenc

What group will the Italian teams be in now that Biarritz aren't in it?

Northampton, Cardiff or Perpignan from Tier 2, please. Montpellier and Glasgow are seriously dangerous sides for Tier 3, want to avoid them.

irishbucsfan

Italian teams are likely to be in Montpelliers group isnt it?

thomond2006

Fireball07 wrote: »

Cardiff really look out of place among the 2nd seeds, but if Munster/Leinster/Ulster draws them, then they'll automatically get Montpellier (because there's no English side in tier 3), who are a much more formidable side.

Good spot. Tbh I'd take Cardiff & Montpellier over an English club and Ospreys! Ospreys are almost guaranteed to screw an Irish side over if they draw them.

From a Munster perspective I'd take Montpellier at Thomond Park rather than Ospreys, who have a great record at Limerick in recent years.

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't know if the event will be
streamed, there's no details of such on the ERC link.

Emmm...

The pool draw for the 2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup will also take place in Dublin on the same day and both draws will be streamed live on www.ercrugby.com and will be offered to international broadcasters.

thomond2006

totallegend

thomond2006 wrote: »

And sure while I'm picking holes in stuff:

thomond2006 wrote:

The best draw for Connacht: Toulouse, Cardiff Blues, Zebre

No English team there so I think the best draw for Connacht is Toulouse, Cardiff and Gloucester. If Exeter are as up for the HEC next season as they were this year, I wouldn't fancy drawing them.

sydthebeat

Tier 4 looks a lot more dangerous than tier 3, on average....

errlloyd

I didn't realise this thread included the amlin draw.

I was beginning to think Thomond2006 had gone all Leo Vradkar on sports sponsorship.

thomond2006

errlloyd wrote: »

I was beginning to think Thomond2006 had gone all Leo Vradkar on sports sponsorship.

:eek:

jamiedav2011

Some fairly hairy 4th seeds there!
Top14 winners, Exeter and Metro would all be to be avoided.

Perfect group for me would be Leinster, Perpignan, Scarlets/Embra, Gloucester.
One of the Irish provinces is likely to get a stinker!

Remember last year someone did up the % likelehood of teams getting each other. If some of you maths whizzes wants to do that I'd be much obliged!

Sinbad_NI

Pool stages next year could be very interesting, or painful, depending on how you look at it.

Bridge93

Swan Curry wrote: »

It's great to see three Irish clubs in Tier 1,really bodes well for the future.If Leicester get off to a slow start with their new coach,they would be a good second seed to get.

As good as it is for Irish rugby I'm curious as to how ulster are ranked higher than Leicester. Seems odd to me.

Fireball07

Bridge93 wrote: »

As good as it is for Irish rugby I'm curious as to how ulster are ranked higher than Leicester. Seems odd to me.

Well, they've got further than them in the HC for 2 seasons in a row...finalists last year, semi-finalists this year and they hammered Leicester en route to the final too, qualifying from the group ahead of them. And the 2 seasons before that, they went out at the same stage. Seems pretty self-explanatory really, a run to the final is good to boost your ranking.

Bridge93

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well, they've got further than them in the HC for 2 seasons in a row...finalists last year, semi-finalists this year and they hammered Leicester en route to the final too, qualifying from the group ahead of them. And the 2 seasons before that, they went out at the same stage. Seems pretty self-explanatory really, a run to the final is good to boost your ranking.

Pretty sure ulster went out same stage as Leicester this year. Ulster a final last year was the first time they've been out of the group since the wont it 14 years ago as far as I'm aware. Leicester were in the final against Leinster not too long ago, have won it twice and lost another final. I think they probably should be top seeds.
But as has been said it gives all the Irish a chance at quarters which is great for the country.

totallegend

Bridge93 wrote: »

Pretty sure ulster went out same stage as Leicester this year. Ulster a final last year was the first time they've been out of the group since the wont it 14 years ago as far as I'm aware. Leicester were in the final against Leinster not too long ago, have won it twice and lost another final. I think they probably should be top seeds.
But as has been said it gives all the Irish a chance at quarters which is great for the country.

Only performance in the last four seasons counts for points, so Leicester's appearance in the 09 final counts for nothing. They won it last in 2002.

The ranking system is very transparent imo.

jamiedav2011

Bridge93 wrote: »

Pretty sure ulster went out same stage as Leicester this year. Ulster a final last year was the first time they've been out of the group since the wont it 14 years ago as far as I'm aware. Leicester were in the final against Leinster not too long ago, have won it twice and lost another final. I think they probably should be top seeds.
But as has been said it gives all the Irish a chance at quarters which is great for the country.

Ulster got to the QF in 2011 too, same as Leicester.

Tox56

Bridge93 wrote: »

Pretty sure ulster went out same stage as Leicester this year. Ulster a final last year was the first time they've been out of the group since the wont it 14 years ago as far as I'm aware. Leicester were in the final against Leinster not too long ago, have won it twice and lost another final. I think they probably should be top seeds.
But as has been said it gives all the Irish a chance at quarters which is great for the country.

They reached the QF the year before they reached the final, same as Leicester that year. It's not a perfect system but it's designed to reflect the recent history of the club, not the fact they won it a few times a decade ago. I certainly wouldn't expect Leinster's H Cup wins in 2011+12 to count in 2023

Fireball07

Bridge93 wrote: »

Pretty sure ulster went out same stage as Leicester this year. Ulster a final last year was the first time they've been out of the group since the wont it 14 years ago as far as I'm aware. Leicester were in the final against Leinster not too long ago, have won it twice and lost another final. I think they probably should be top seeds.
But as has been said it gives all the Irish a chance at quarters which is great for the country.

Oh yeah, my mistake. This year they were both quarter-finalists, as they were 2 years ago. But a final placing last year V group stages is a pretty significant difference, and enough to separate them.

The system isn't perfect, but I certainly don't think it's unfair to rank Ulster ahead of Leicester currently. I'd say Toulouse, of all the teams, deserve to be lower, on recent form. Didn't qualify this year (behind Leicester) and lost to Edinburgh in the quarters last year.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Bridge93 wrote: »

As good as it is for Irish rugby I'm curious as to how ulster are ranked higher than Leicester. Seems odd to me.

Over the last 4 years Leicster have two quarter final exits and have finished 3rd in their groups on two occasions.

Ulster have reached two QFs a final and went out in the group stage (finishing second in their group).

Not hard to understand at all imo.

Fireball07

The current system is quite good, the points allocated for each thing is fair enough imo. However, if I was in charge of it, I would probably make a few adjustments.

Firstly...I don't agree that points from 4 years ago should count the same as ones from the season just gone so I'd give the 4th year a multiplier of 0.5, with the most recent points doubled.

Then, I'd try to give some sort of recognition to domestic competition. There may be problems there, as people may disagree with putting the pro12/top 14 and the Premiership all on the same footing.....but the likes of Toulon have been strong domestically for ages, but only recently have got an appropriate ranking (and obviously won the HC this year). Similar will probably happen with Racing.

And I know it's not the ERC's business really, but it would probably boost the credentials of the pro12 a bit. It wouldn't have to be a big number of points, maybe 2 for the winner, 1 for finalists and semi-finalists. (I don't think they give half-points). I don't know...I'm not entirely sure, but I think it would give a fairer reflection.


EDIT: Or maybe a 3-2-1 distribution to winner-finalist-semifinalists? Or would that be too much? Winning the top14 is a big deal though.

thomond2006

Fireball07 wrote: »

The current system is quite good, the points allocated for each thing is fair enough imo. However, if I was in charge of it, I would probably make a few adjustments.

Firstly...I don't agree that points from 4 years ago should count the same as ones from the season just gone so I'd give the 4th year a multiplier of 0.5, with the most recent points doubled.

The one thing that sort of idea would over-reward is a flash in the pan performance i.e. Edinburgh in 2011/12

Fireball07

thomond2006 wrote: »

The one thing that sort of idea would over-reward is a flash in the pan performance i.e. Edinburgh in 2011/12

That is true...although only really in the season immediately after. By accounting for domestic performance aswell, it gives a kind of balance to that.

And of course, if the seeding is a true reflection of where teams stand generally, then a flash-in-the-pan performance deserves to be rewarded for such an over-achievement.

(I did a little thing in excel, using that suggested system and there really isn't much change at all.....Castres/Ospreys/Leicester are the big winners, mostly from the domestic angle)

Skid X

I got this in an e-mail from ERC today (although I don't see the draw scheduled on the TG4 listings)...

The pool draw for the 2013/14 Amlin Challenge Cup will also take place today and both draws will be streamed live on ercrugby.com and will also be covered live by TG4 (Ireland and Sky Sports News (UK and Ireland) )


Timings
2.30pm: Amlin Challenge Cup Pool Draw
2.50pm (approx) Heineken Cup Pool draw

[Jackass]

Regarding the rankings, I think it would be better if it was based over a shorter time frame, maybe 3 years. As it would then reward the best teams who always do well more consistently and would also lower the value of 1 flash in the pan season of doing well, and lower the impact of one season a good team does poor.

Prevents teams like Cardiff and Edinburgh hanging around upper tiers any longer than they should.

Skid X

It's on TG4 now.

Shaggy is the MC.

http://www.aertv.ie/#tg4

RuggieBear

a bit stilted is our Horgan

who_me

RuggieBear wrote: »

a bit stilted is our Horgan

No, he is actually that tall..

its_phil

RuggieBear wrote: »

a bit stilted is our Horgan

Definitely not going to be hosting the Late Late anytime soon..but that try in Twickenham forgives all

thomond2006

Why didn't they get John Hayes to do the draw? :mad:

Ruck Inspector

horgs a bit awkward

Skid X

It's a tough enough presenting gig - pronunciations, complicated draws, a high potential for something to go wrong.

I'm surprised they didn't get an experienced anchor to do it.

its_phil

Skid X wrote: »

It's a tough enough presenting gig - pronunciations, complicated draws, a high potential for something to go wrong.

I'm surprised they didn't get an experienced anchor to do it.

I think Greenwood did it last year and he was very good

Swan Curry

Shaggy made a balls of pronouncing Mogliano there.

jamiedav2011

Shaggy reading everything from a script!

Is this in Dublin?

Grimebox

I always find it bizarre when they ask people to use twitter in such an official manner

Tox56

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Shaggy reading everything from a script!

Is this in Dublin?

Looks like the press room place in the Aviva

vkid

I'm sure he's a nice fella, but I just cannot warm to Horgan on TV either as a commentator, or as an "MC" which he is attempting right now,

andrewdcs

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Shaggy reading everything from a script!

Is this in Dublin?

Yes, in Dublin, he's speaking extra slowly for the international audience.

jamiedav2011

vkid wrote: »

I'm sure he's a nice fella, but I just cannot warm to Horgan on TV either as a commentator, or as an "MC" which he is attempting right now,

He's an excellent analyst, great insight.
Not great at this sort of a gig alright.

Taco Corp

this is painful stuff. only watching because I have other more painful stuff to do

vkid

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

He's an excellent analyst, great insight.
Not great at this sort of a gig alright.

I think he likes the sounds of his own voice a little bit too miuch as a commentator to be honest, even if his insight is good. Had to turn him off during the 6 nations.

He is woeful doing the MC thing. Even if he is reading, his delivery is terrible and he keep swinging off the lectern or holding on to it. Someone needs to give him some lessons..

vkid

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

this is painful stuff. only watching because I have other more painful stuff to do

i hear that...avoiding work atm...god damn working from home.

Skid X

Just to balance things up

matthew8

Lucky Munster.

totallegend

Munster get Perpignan, jammy basstards. This means they avoid Quins/Sarries/Tigers/Saints.

Tox56

Bugger, would have taken Perpignan

Buer

Ah Christ. Swapsies! I'd have taken your arm off if I was offered Perpignan!