Turkish Spring

hatrickpatrick

Jonny7 wrote: »

I wouldn't say the protests in Turkey are "exactly" like the London riots.

In fact, both are quite dissimilar. One a looting and vandalism overreaction and spree by teenagers and thugs taking advantage of a lack of police presence sparked by an isolated incident.

The other, protests and marches against the ruling party, spurned to violence by an overreaction of the government.

Opportunism vs political statement

The London Riots became opportunistic, but the initial havoc was a direct rage precipitated by the Mark Duggan incident, and if the police had handled it properly, Tottenham would never have gone down the way it did. The first riot, in Tottenham, only escalated to that level because somebody responsible for PR f*cked things up massively.

I see today actually that the acting PM of Turkey (while the PM is away, not even going to attempt to spell either of their names ) has finally come out and condemned the initial police violence. Time will tell if that'll be enough to calm the riots, but I would bet all my money that if he'd done this on day one, the subsequent spread of rioting probably would have been curtailed.

Nodin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The London Riots became opportunistic, but the initial havoc was a direct rage precipitated by the Mark Duggan incident, and if the police had handled it properly, Tottenham would never have gone down the way it did. The first riot, in Tottenham, only escalated to that level because somebody responsible for PR f*cked things up massively.

I see today actually that the acting PM of Turkey (while the PM is away, not even going to attempt to spell either of their names ) has finally come out and condemned the initial police violence. Time will tell if that'll be enough to calm the riots, but I would bet all my money that if he'd done this on day one, the subsequent spread of rioting probably would have been curtailed.

He displays a palpable dismissive arrogance, which - on top of the OTT police actions - is a recipe for disaster.

Nodin

And now its good cop, bad cop...?

Turkey's deputy prime minister has offered an apology in an effort to appease anti-government protesters across the country as hundreds of riot police deployed around the prime minister's office in the capital for a fifth day.Bulent Arinc, who is standing in for the prime minister while he is out of
the country, said the crackdown was "wrong and unjust".

It was unclear, however, whether Arinc was giving the government line. The
prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who is visiting Morocco, Algeria and
Tunisia, has undermined statements by his ministers in the past. He has
previously called protesters "looters" and dismissed the protests as acts by
fringe extremists.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/04/turkish-deputy-pm-apologises-protesters

zom

Gweedling wrote: »

n Turkey, peaceful protestors are getting lumps kicked out of them by the police and its corrupt government. Nowhere during the London riots did I see protestors cleaning up after themselves, passing around food and taking care of one another. Quite the opposite.

Surprising when we assume that we are "civilized western society" and They are "Muslims from Asia". I hope They will withstand and gain something after this protests. They deserved.

zom

Le_Dieux wrote: »

IF that's the case ( & I am not doubting You for one minute) then we are looking at a potential dictatorship here. Turkey will NEVER get into the EU if Erdogan goes ahead with these plans.

It's not a biggest concern in terms of "getting into EU". European investors cropped billions into Turkish property (and other investments) and they can influence more than anyone else to drag Turkey into EU. It's not a kids game, it's business.

Peanut

Big screw-up tonight in handling the protests (a very significant betrayal of trust by waiting for a huge crowd to gather in the centre for a press conference, then firing gas on them while claiming beforehand that they wouldn't), Erdogan has now managed to piss off a ton of different people - secularists, the educated youth, big businesses not on the State bankroll, the finance sector, the Ankara and Istanbul Bar associations, foreign investors, the tourism sector, presumably what's left of the non-akp military and outside international interests - something has to give.

Le_Dieux

Peanut wrote: »

Big screw-up tonight in handling the protests, Erdogan has now managed to piss off a ton of different people - secularists, the educated youth, big businesses not on the State bankroll, the finance sector, the Ankara and Istanbul Bar associations, foreign investors, the tourism sector, presumably what's left of the non-akp military and outside international interests - something has to give.

To see women UNveiled protesting in a Muslim country, does the heart good. To see soldiers throwing cannisters of tear gas at them is cowardly.

And Erdogan calls these people looters, and more?? I agree OP, something has to give, I only hope its Erdogan.

Gweedling

Le_Dieux wrote: »

To see women UNveiled protesting in a Muslim country,

ZOM wrote:

Surprising when we assume that we are "civilized western society" and They are "Muslims from Asia". I hope They will withstand and gain something after this protests. They deserved.

The majority of Turkish women don't wear veils/hijabs etc. I'd see just as many veils and burkhas walking through London as I would walking through Istanbul. While Turkey is 98%/99% muslim, much of the population has a much more relaxed approach to religion. What some people also fail to realise is that Islam has a lot of different branches, much like Christianity. Tarnishing all muslims with the same stereotype could be similar to saying all Christians are like the westboro Baptist church.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to troll/derail this awesome thread into another religion argument, but I wanted to clarify that. Turkish people are some of the nicest, most hospitable groups of people I've ever met, and it makes me twitch when disrespectful stereotypes are brought into it.

FTA69

Scofflaw wrote: »

This would be similar to, say, the veneration of Dev or Collins, while the "military dominated nationalism" is what made Turkey a secular nation rather than an Islamic one. It's being described as if it were some kind of oppressive junta, which is inaccurate.

cordially,
Scofflaw

To be fair, in Ireland you might see the odd portrait of Collins etc on the wall of a house or a pub, in Turkey images of Ataturk are everywhere. Hanging in taxis, lifts, restaurants, the currency. Basically any available public space or state building has Ataturk crowbarred onto every surface. This kind of eulogising of the "great founder of the nation" also neatly fits into Turkish ultra-nationalism which has traditionally been of great detriment to ethnic groups such as the Kurds and the Armenians.

Ataturk also presided over the militarism of the Turkish state which led to various juntas and even still today the Turkish Army could be said to have far too much input into affairs of state than is healthy. It's also led to the point where it's illegal to insult the Turkish nation, a law that has actually led to imprisonment.

I wouldn't consider Ataturk's influence all that positive to be honest.

Peanut

TV watchdog fines live streaming of Gezi protests for "harming development of children, youth"

The Radio and Television Supreme Council (RTÜK) has fined a number of channels, including Halk TV, for "harming the physical, moral and mental development of children and young people" by broadcasting coverage of the Gezi Park protests.

Jonny7

Turkey may hold referendum on the park..

very interesting development. Could be a gauge of the true mood in the country.

halkar

FTA69 wrote: »

To be fair, in Ireland you might see the odd portrait of Collins etc on the wall of a house or a pub, in Turkey images of Ataturk are everywhere. Hanging in taxis, lifts, restaurants, the currency. .

Queen's head is everywhere in UK too and other commonwealth countries. It is not only about being ultra-nationalist. It is also about showing respect.

Without Ataturk, Turkey (if existed at all) would probably be like Iran or Afghanistan.

FTA69

halkar wrote: »

Queen's head is everywhere in UK too and other commonwealth countries. It is not only about being ultra-nationalist. It is also about showing respect.

The queen isn't nearly as pervasive throughout British society as Ataturk is in Turkey. Also while you do have a "little Englander" mentality here it is positively progressive in comparison to the Turkish right. I never said that reverence for Ataturk alone constitutes ultra-nationalism, rather that it links into near-fascist politics, heavy militarism and sheer hatred for ethnic groups such as the Kurds who have been treated horrifically by the Turkish regime and whose plight has shamefully been ignored by much of the world at large. Also despite the queen being on the currency here, you can't go to jail for insulting the British state; something not the case in Turkey.

BuilderPlumber

halkar wrote: »

Without Ataturk, Turkey (if existed at all) would probably be like Iran or Afghanistan.

Up until the 1970s, Iran, Afghanistan and Turkey were the three of the most liberal and peaceful countries in the Middle East. Iraq was the other!!

Yes, those strange regimes in Afghanistan and Iran are only a 1970s and 1980s creation and yes there was a time in the 1960s and 1970s that Iraq was not at war with anyone! 1979 saw Iran slide in revolution, repressive laws, then war with Iraq and then post war economic ruin for both. Saddam turned to another war for answers made enemies of the West and eventually was overthrown leading to Iraq as we know it today! Meanwhile, Afghanistan saw coup after coup with the US and USSR supplying rival groups with arms and leading to a civil war that lasted for decades and is still going on. Along the way, the Afghans had to put up with the Taliban and warlords along with a Russian and American invasion. BUT Turkey was still that island of peace in a region of chaos that Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq also once were - up until now that is! At the moment, Iran may have regained its position as the most peaceful country in the Middle East but there is a divisive election there tomorrow so expect that to cause another spiral of violence.

So, with an election in Iran and a restive revolt in Turkey who knows what can happen? Afterall, a mere 3 years ago Syria was looking fine too!

BuilderPlumber

Gweedling wrote: »

The majority of Turkish women don't wear veils/hijabs etc. I'd see just as many veils and burkhas walking through London as I would walking through Istanbul. While Turkey is 98%/99% muslim, much of the population has a much more relaxed approach to religion. What some people also fail to realise is that Islam has a lot of different branches, much like Christianity. Tarnishing all muslims with the same stereotype could be similar to saying all Christians are like the westboro Baptist church.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to troll/derail this awesome thread into another religion argument, but I wanted to clarify that. Turkish people are some of the nicest, most hospitable groups of people I've ever met, and it makes me twitch when disrespectful stereotypes are brought into it.

Very true. Turkey has always been a moderate religious state and has progressed well due to this. Turkish and Iranian people too are among the nicest and most hospitable I know too.

One of the main differences between what is going on in Turkey compared to say in Egypt is that the protesters are against increased religious rule (even though it is moderate) rather than a protest against secularisation. It is much like the failed (thus far) 2009 green revolution in Iran, a country that has a moderate population against a fundamentalist unrepresentative regime.

BUT Turkey needs to be careful: a thing like this could spiral out of control like in Syria. Religious hardliners could hijack a popular revolt like 1979 Iran. Or the old Turkish/Kurdish conflict could flame up again. The problem is that when these things start, it is often hard to stop them getting out of control and the end result is often not what people wanted.

Peanut

I don't think there is any chance of a Syria type engagement since the current unease has no basis along sectarian lines as such.

Also, you have to factor in that the current gov. is very much a populist one and is most likely using religious rhetoric and gestures as a tool to solidify their popular support, even when certain religious tensions are not really there to begin with, or exaggerated.

The alcohol restriction is a good example - I'm not sure that there was really that much annoyance among conservatives about the current alcohol laws, certainly not to the degree of the earlier headscarf ban which was overturned, but these and other issues are being manipulated for political ends.

BuilderPlumber

Peanut wrote: »

I don't think there is any chance of a Syria type engagement since the current unease has no basis along sectarian lines as such.

Also, you have to factor in that the current gov. is very much a populist one and is most likely using religious rhetoric and gestures as a tool to solidify their popular support, even when certain religious tensions are not really there to begin with, or exaggerated.

The alcohol restriction is a good example - I'm not sure that there was really that much annoyance among conservatives about the current alcohol laws, certainly not to the degree of the earlier headscarf ban which was overturned, but these and other issues are being manipulated for political ends.

True. No sectarian divisions but as with most Middle East nations, Turkey is divided into two sets of people: secular rich/middle class and religious poor/lower middle class.

The coming weeks will see how things pan out in Turkey. Hopefully, it is kept in check and a compromise can be found.