Turkish Spring

Le_Dieux

AlekSmart wrote: »

Forget about all the oul Islamic shytt,this has just gotten SERIOUS !!!!



If I were Mr Erdogan,I'd be on the next magic-carpet outa there

Was watching AlJazeera this morning, and to use a phrase they used 'These riots are over the ''ISLAMISATION'' of Turkey'.

I HOPE I am wrong here, but I can see SERIOUS crap ahead, and remember the implications here, particularly with regard to ( as someone mentioned yesterday) The PKP & 2) The Syrian 'factor'.

Scofflaw

You can discuss Irish education, Christian Brothers, and the like elsewhere - this thread is about Turkey. Posts deleted.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Le_Dieux

Apologies Scofflaw for deviating.

This is exactly what worries me, and where the repercussions of what's unfolding in Istanbul, Ankara, and I see Izmir now involved:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syria-calls-on-pm-erdogan-to-halt-the-violent-repression-of-peaceful-protests-or-resign.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48025&NewsCatID=338

Whatever is right and wrong in Syria, to read this reeks of interference.

Gweedling

That news article was laughable, the ironing is delicious. I hope for his sake it's a serious misquote/tabloid cherry picking.

Le_Dieux

Gweedling wrote: »

That news article was laughable, the ironing is delicious. I hope for his sake it's a serious misquote/tabloid cherry picking.

Yes, but one must remember where the publisher is from.

Gweedling

Just checked that, I was speaking to a Turkish friend yesterday who explained a bit about what's going on, said there has been very little turkish news coverage of the events in the media. The government run stations for obvious reasons, and the non government stations won't cover it simply because they're too afraid to.

zom

Gweedling wrote: »

Just checked that, I was speaking to a Turkish friend yesterday who explained a bit about what's going on, said there has been very little turkish news coverage of the events in the media.

Thats what terrifying me most - global media solidarity in silencing the informations and stop spreading news from Turkey. I see red herring season everywhere!!

zom

zom wrote: »

Thats what terrifying me most - global media solidarity in silencing the informations and stop spreading news from Turkey. I see red herring season everywhere!!

In all fairness, sky UK are covering the situation live. Hardly a global media solidarity!

zom

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

In all fairness, sky UK are covering the situation live. Hardly a global media solidarity!

Global media are covering it as they are global media. But "average people" informations channels are quite restrict about any informations from Turkey. You can always say that "average people" want rather read / watch about celebrities and sport than sad news like riots - especially during nice Summer Bank Holiday. But this Turkey protest is just about "average people".

Jonny7

zom wrote: »

Global media are covering it as they are global media. But "average people" informations channels are quite restrict about any informations from Turkey. You can always say that "average people" want rather read / watch about celebrities and sport than sad news like riots - especially during nice Summer Bank Holiday. But this Turkey protest is just about "average people".

It's in the news.

halkar

This is actually serious. Turkey is not sleeping tonight. Hundreds of thousands of people in the streets across Turkey. Many main stream channels are not reporting anything but few anti government channels giving live feeds. Many government sites are hacked. It will be interesting week in Turkey. It is no longer about few trees or the park. Prime minister is ignoring the people and going to Morocco, Tunisia. He is pi$$ing on the fire with petrol.

pablomakaveli

yara wrote: »

seeing as how the whole arab spring was created by the yanks lets hope it isn't

I hate this sort of sentiment. People who say this come across as seeming to believe people in non-western countries are unable to think or act for themselves without American influence.

Events like the Arab Spring happen because the people are unhappy and have had enough. They're not mindless drones who need to be told how to think.

Improbable

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I see on the news this morning that there is now loss of life. I sincerely hope ( assuming You are in Ireland) that Your loved ones are safe and well in Turkey.

Without wanting to tempt faith here ( and hope I'm not stamping on toes) but religion and beliefs are the roots of ALL evil in this mad world.

Yes, at least a few people have died. One from being hit by a water cannon and hitting his head on the pavement. Another one from taking a direct hit to the head from a gas canister. I am indeed in Ireland but in constant contact with family members in Turkey, getting updates on the situation and they're all fine. The only people who are in danger are the ones who are at the very front lines, clashing with police. The protests do have a few central hubs where a lot of people have gathered but there are also a lot of smaller protests going on elsewhere. As it's so widespread, the police don't have the manpower to spread themselves so far as they'd be spread too thin and that might make things dangerous for them.

Karl Stein

yara wrote: »

seeing as how the whole arab spring was created by the yanks lets hope it isn't

Conspiracy nonsense.

The Americans were more than happy with the Mubarak regime in Egypt. Egypt is the 2nd largest recipient of US 'aid' after Israel. The Egyptians have a very robust military (mostly US equipment purchased from their US 'aid') and has peace agreements with Israel so has no actual enemy.

The Egyptians happen to be in possesion of the Suez Canal. The Arab Spring was not good for western interests when it comes to Egypt.

cyberhog

According to some commentators a lot of the protestors are pretty unsavoury characters.

In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.

The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.

People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.

So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them

But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism.

People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.

We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/talking-turkey/

Obliq

cyberhog wrote: »

According to some commentators a lot of the protestors are pretty unsavoury characters.

For what it's worth, these powerful photos show differently, for the most part. *Warning* Looks like the protester who died from a direct shot to the head is pictured here too...

http://imgur.com/a/gKAsu

yara

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I hate this sort of sentiment. People who say this come across as seeming to believe people in non-western countries are unable to think or act for themselves without American influence.

Events like the Arab Spring happen because the people are unhappy and have had enough. They're not mindless drones who need to be told how to think.

but the CIA were reportedly in Egypt stirring it all up for almost 2 years before it finally broke.

I actually hate your sort of sentiment that denies hundreds of thousands of wikileaks cables showing american government to be the cause of and funder of most of the unrest everywhere, they thrive on it

yara

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Conspiracy nonsense.

The Americans were more than happy with the Mubarak regime in Egypt. Egypt is the 2nd largest recipient of US 'aid' after Israel. The Egyptians have a very robust military (mostly US equipment purchased from their US 'aid') and has peace agreements with Israel so has no actual enemy.

The Egyptians happen to be in possesion of the Suez Canal. The Arab Spring was not good for western interests when it comes to Egypt.

oh right, so David Cameron wasn't straight into Egypt with 15 of the largest weapons contractors directly after Mubarak fell?? He was the very first international figurehead to slither in with his democracy bombs. The "arab spring" was very good to some western interests, it's created widespread chaos and further adds to this never ending war on terror now the weapons have been slipped to rebels and al queda (aren't the yanks and their allies supposed to be trying to eradicate al queda but now we know they're arming and funding them!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1359316/Prime-Minister-David-Cameron-takes-arms-dealers-Egypt-promote-democracy.html

Le_Dieux

cyberhog wrote: »

According to some commentators a lot of the protestors are pretty unsavoury characters.



http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/06/talking-turkey/[/QUOTE]

I have just looked through the link in the following submission, and think it's VERY UNFAIR for anyoone to declare a person is a 'pretty unsavoury character'.

Since whn do we judge a book by it's cover? I saw people on tv who were hit with a water jet, and were completely thrown backwards - what does that make the person behind the jet?

We are talking about people here who oonyl want FREEDOM, so what if they are unshaven or whatever!!!

Anyone know if that bloke sitting in front af the APC survived?

Le_Dieux

I also have just looked through the page again, and if these people protesting for FREEDOM are pretty unsavoury characters, then what does that make that fúcking bastard dressed in a police uniform with his foot raised over the head, of a shirtless man lying on the ground, dressed in a police uniform? Or the other 'human' with the butt end of a rifle also poised over the man lying on the ground?

Jonny7

Erdogan calling the protesters "an extremist fringe", pinning them to influence from the opposition and calling social media the "worst menace to society". Whilst the media in Turkey seems to be either state controlled or too scared to cover the protests.

Since the country is doing well economically I reckon he has quite a broad support base - the protesters seem mostly young and disillusioned with the leadership, the authoritarian stance and what they see as religious aspects creeping into the country's law.

Jonny7

Interesting observation from Paul Mason, economics editor for the beeb

I have covered Syntagma in Athens, the Occupy protests and reported from Tahrir Square in Cairo. This is different to all of them. First, it is massive: the sheer numbers dwarf any single episode of civil unrest in Greece.

Second, the breadth of social support - within the urban enclave of Istanbul - is bigger than Greece and closer to Egypt. "Everyone is here - except the AK Party" - says one young woman. People nod. In Greece, the urban middle class was split; here the secular middle class is out in force, united across political divisions, to say nothing of football hatreds.

Is this the Turkish Tahrir? Not unless the workers join in: Turkey has a large labour movement, and a big urban poor, working population, and Monday is a work day, so we will see. It is certainly already something more than the Turkish version of Occupy.

halkar

Pretty unsavory character indeed



Many of the protestors showing dislike to Erdogan if not AKP. They are chanting personal insults to him. There were no protests like this in the history of Turkey to any party nor any prime ministers. Erdogan is a difficult man to understand. His biggest problem is his words. He does not think what he speaks. Recently he labeled all drinkers in Turkey as alcoholics. Including Ataturk who was a drinker also. This alone is enough to piss Turks off.

20Cent

Some of the video coming out of Turkey is shocking the police brutality is inflaming the situation. They've managed to turn a protest about a park into a referendum on the president.

Scofflaw

the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul.

This would be similar to, say, the veneration of Dev or Collins, while the "military dominated nationalism" is what made Turkey a secular nation rather than an Islamic one. It's being described as if it were some kind of oppressive junta, which is inaccurate.

cordially,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

Jonny7 wrote: »

Erdogan calling the protesters "an extremist fringe", pinning them to influence from the opposition and calling social media the "worst menace to society". Whilst the media in Turkey seems to be either state controlled or too scared to cover the protests.

Since the country is doing well economically I reckon he has quite a broad support base - the protesters seem mostly young and disillusioned with the leadership, the authoritarian stance and what they see as religious aspects creeping into the country's law.

Crikey Jonny7,are you sure this is'nt Stockholm you're thinking of?

This Turkish cauldron is indeed interesting,if for no other reason than it's diametrically opposed to the protest lines we tend to find more supportable here in the Wesht.

Usually,even here on Boards,we see the just cause revolving around some Islamicists seeking greater recognition and/or concessions from an oppressive Christian orientated regime.

However,in this Turkish example,we are faced with a significant number of people who believe their Republic is being watered down to placate/stimulate militant Islamic beliefs.

I can see the Turkish situation already causing a bit of head-scratching amongst those who generally hurry along to support the underdog,only to find the underdog here is of the opposite hue....

What I find of interest here is the regard in which these protesters hold the notion of the Turkish Republic,with many references to Mr Erdogans ststed intention to have the T.C. (Turkish Republic) appendage removed from Official Emblems etc.

I wonder,should the relentless march of Mr Erdogans thought processes continue in an Irish context,would Irish citizens be as motivated to "Stand by Their Republic " ?

pablomakaveli

yara wrote: »

but the CIA were reportedly in Egypt stirring it all up for almost 2 years before it finally broke.

I actually hate your sort of sentiment that denies hundreds of thousands of wikileaks cables showing american government to be the cause of and funder of most of the unrest everywhere, they thrive on it

A revolution can't take place if the majority of people aren't behind it. The CIA may or may not have played a part but the revolution in Egypt would have died out if the people had no desire for it.

The Egyptians aren't gullible idiots who need Americans to tell them how to feel. That desire for change was already there.

cyberhog

Scofflaw wrote: »

This would be similar to, say, the veneration of Dev or Collins, while the "military dominated nationalism" is what made Turkey a secular nation rather than an Islamic one. It's being described as if it were some kind of oppressive junta, which is inaccurate.

cordially,
Scofflaw

You obviously have no clue about Turkish history. The Armenian Genocide was committed by republican Turkish government forces under Kemal Atarturk. Once the Armenian population had been wiped out Kemal then turned his attention to promoting a secular Turkish national identity.
Westerners are sold the story that secular=good and because of our lack of knowledge of other societies we take the bait ,hook line and sinker.

Nodin

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey Jonny7,are you sure this is'nt Stockholm you're thinking of?

This Turkish cauldron is indeed interesting,if for no other reason than it's diametrically opposed to the protest lines we tend to find more supportable here in the Wesht.

Usually,even here on Boards,we see the just cause revolving around some Islamicists seeking greater recognition and/or concessions from an oppressive Christian orientated regime.
............

None of this strikes me as remotely related to reality.

Nodin

cyberhog wrote: »

You obviously have no clue about Turkish history. The Armenian Genocide was committed by republican Turkish government forces under Kemal Atarturk. ...............

I'd suggest you're mistaken there.